normiss 622
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SkyDekker 1,121
QuoteI don't believe it gives us the right to actually shoot them.
Fuck me...I thought you 'Mericans had the right to shoot anybody
But, as I understand it, the 2nd was mostly added to protect the populous from a rogue government. In today's day and age it is odd that a document places more value on forcibly overthrowing the government than voting for a new one...
BIGUN 1,051
Morning/Evening Mike
OK. Since New Orleans and confiscations have come up twice now, I'm going to address that. You see, I was there within two days after Katrina hit attached to a Federal & State Special Emergency Response Team (For those who don't know, I run a Disaster Response Company). Our mission is to support the Federal/State teams with an FOB Base Camp and EOC (not unlike a military TOC). They do the operations, we support them as a logistics company.
I landed at the Mobile airport and was driving over to New Orleans Tuesday night (Katrina hit on Monday), I was in the lead vehicle and we pulled over to assist some civilians when a car whipped in front of me and three young gentlemen jumped out and started walking towards me.. It being very dark since there was no electrical utility infrastructure, the only lights were those of our vehicle headlights. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for them, my advance party is always comprised of former SF guys.. Within 3 seconds, my team in the trail vehicles had come around in the darkness and the three young gentlemen were gently persuaded that their actions would be better served elsewhere.
As we penetrated further into our rally point in Slidell to meet with the State and Federal teams, it was no less than complete anarchy. There were numerous times/incidents of people trying to steal from even the federal/state teams that were coming in with supplies to help those people that were jacked at gunpoint. One of the other vendors and friend who runs an Ice distribution company had two 53' tractors taken at gunpoint. Those gentlemen were later found - not taking the ice for themselves or distributing it amongst the community, but selling the ice and were of course - arrested. I can tell you numerous stories about incidents that led up to the ESF 13 team (Emergency Support Function - Law Enforcement) making the decision to confiscate weapons. I was at the EOC morning briefing when that decision was made; which was made after three civilians had been shot in their homes by looters.
Here is a little sidebar that most people don't know... Each State has to pass legislation allowing for the State and local police (NOT federal) to allow for the police to confiscate weapons during a disaster. During a disaster, when the Federal ESF 13 comes into a state, they actually report to the state's ESF 13 team...
MISSION STATEMENT
In an incident many events will occur which will necessitate law enforcement and other safety measures for the protection of life and property. To maintain law and order, protect life and property, under¬take traffic control, provide law enforcement support to other law enforcement agencies, guard essential facilities and supplies, and coordinate law enforcement mutual aid.
COMMAND AND CONTROL
When an incident is anticipated or erupts, the ESF 13 Coordinator will coordinate the dispatch of personnel to the affected area(s). Those personnel will coordinate any requests for additional law enforcement resources and made requests through the ESF 13 Coordinator.
During a declared emergency or disaster, ultimate responsibility for direction and control of the law enforcement function is vested, by statute, in the Chief Executive Officer of the jurisdiction, e.g., the City Manager/Mayor of incorporated cities, and the County Judge Executive in the remainder of the county. Heads of individual law enforcement agencies have direct control over their own personnel and resources, and exercise direction and control within jurisdictional boundaries. The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction. Responses to incidents requiring resources beyond the capability of the local law enforcement agency will be coordinated through the ESF 13 Coordinator. The Chief Executive Officer has the authority to request the State Police or Federal Law Enforcement agencies for assistance.
So, here's what happened... again, after the third civilian was shot by another civilian, the NOPD (not the feds) made the decision (under the mission statement of, "other safety measures for the protection of life and property") that anyone who was walking the streets or boating in the canals with a weapon that could not present ID or had the weapon outside their home would have their weapons confiscated.
Here's what was NOT in the news or disseminated by the NRA - there were a total of 458 weapons confiscated, all of which were placed in a repository for and 99.9% of the LEO's who confiscated the weapons told the civilians that when it was over, they could go down to their local police station and find out how to go about retrieving their weapons. After about a year, about 50% of the weapons had still not been claimed. People bitched to the NRA instead of going down to the local police station as advised, the NRA took a grandiose soap box position and made a film about the injustice of it all and sued the city to return the weapons - which was the plan all along. The question the NRA NEVER asked those in the film was, "Did you present them with any ID when asked?" Cause the answer would have been, "No."
Now, were mistakes made.... absolutely. No different than mistakes are made in combat (friendly fire, etc.). And, make no mistake, this was a combat zone. And those officers who made those mistakes outside their given orders were reprimanded. In some cases, they were allowed to resign. But, that didn't make the NRA film or news either.
So, there were two situations, 1) those who had legal ownership, but had not retrieved their weapons, had not received them because they were too lazy to take their asses down to the local police station to find out where the repository was, or 2) guess who else didn't come to claim "their" weapons. Here's the really cool part, if you went down to claim your weapon, you didn't even HAVE to prove ownership, no bill of sale, no nothing, except a proper ID (Drivers license) . Just a description of the weapon, bring those weapons out, you point at yours and say, "That's mine." They would write down your name in the Release Log; address, phone number (if available), make, model, caliber, and serial number and hand over the weapon.
The thing is this.. Just as Jesse Jackson can never proclaim that because we now have an African-American President, there is no need for him to continue to point out prejudice in America and state that he's going back to being a preacher, The NRA can never say (and to a certain point is responsible for the errant stupid ass gun control laws) can bring the government a valid solution or legal proposition for legislative consideration because they are not in the business of putting themselves out of a "cause" and out of a job.
You don't think Charlton Heston was their spokesman or their 75 member Board of Directors are in the cause for altruistic reasons, do you? Did you know their CEO makes a million bucks a year, they recently built a new 15 Million dollar "headquarters" and more than 50% of their money goes to fund raising activities. Which is polite for saying what they produce most as an organization is "membership." Between salaries and fund raising activities for membership, that might leave a whole 10% of their revenue stream for the purposes of education as a 501(c)(4) organization.
Just as Jesse Jackson has to sell prejudice to stay in business, the NRA has to sell, "The Dingo's gonna get your baby."
The solution is simple... Every gun is registered to each owner from cradle to grave. Just like a car.
On a final note, you know who are some of the most adamant defenders of the 2nd amendment; Federal, State and Local law enforcement. And they're the one's who get the the bad guys pointing guns at them. By having a national gun registration statute; we can help protect them; protecting us.
OK. Since New Orleans and confiscations have come up twice now, I'm going to address that. You see, I was there within two days after Katrina hit attached to a Federal & State Special Emergency Response Team (For those who don't know, I run a Disaster Response Company). Our mission is to support the Federal/State teams with an FOB Base Camp and EOC (not unlike a military TOC). They do the operations, we support them as a logistics company.
I landed at the Mobile airport and was driving over to New Orleans Tuesday night (Katrina hit on Monday), I was in the lead vehicle and we pulled over to assist some civilians when a car whipped in front of me and three young gentlemen jumped out and started walking towards me.. It being very dark since there was no electrical utility infrastructure, the only lights were those of our vehicle headlights. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for them, my advance party is always comprised of former SF guys.. Within 3 seconds, my team in the trail vehicles had come around in the darkness and the three young gentlemen were gently persuaded that their actions would be better served elsewhere.
As we penetrated further into our rally point in Slidell to meet with the State and Federal teams, it was no less than complete anarchy. There were numerous times/incidents of people trying to steal from even the federal/state teams that were coming in with supplies to help those people that were jacked at gunpoint. One of the other vendors and friend who runs an Ice distribution company had two 53' tractors taken at gunpoint. Those gentlemen were later found - not taking the ice for themselves or distributing it amongst the community, but selling the ice and were of course - arrested. I can tell you numerous stories about incidents that led up to the ESF 13 team (Emergency Support Function - Law Enforcement) making the decision to confiscate weapons. I was at the EOC morning briefing when that decision was made; which was made after three civilians had been shot in their homes by looters.
Here is a little sidebar that most people don't know... Each State has to pass legislation allowing for the State and local police (NOT federal) to allow for the police to confiscate weapons during a disaster. During a disaster, when the Federal ESF 13 comes into a state, they actually report to the state's ESF 13 team...
MISSION STATEMENT
In an incident many events will occur which will necessitate law enforcement and other safety measures for the protection of life and property. To maintain law and order, protect life and property, under¬take traffic control, provide law enforcement support to other law enforcement agencies, guard essential facilities and supplies, and coordinate law enforcement mutual aid.
COMMAND AND CONTROL
When an incident is anticipated or erupts, the ESF 13 Coordinator will coordinate the dispatch of personnel to the affected area(s). Those personnel will coordinate any requests for additional law enforcement resources and made requests through the ESF 13 Coordinator.
During a declared emergency or disaster, ultimate responsibility for direction and control of the law enforcement function is vested, by statute, in the Chief Executive Officer of the jurisdiction, e.g., the City Manager/Mayor of incorporated cities, and the County Judge Executive in the remainder of the county. Heads of individual law enforcement agencies have direct control over their own personnel and resources, and exercise direction and control within jurisdictional boundaries. The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction. Responses to incidents requiring resources beyond the capability of the local law enforcement agency will be coordinated through the ESF 13 Coordinator. The Chief Executive Officer has the authority to request the State Police or Federal Law Enforcement agencies for assistance.
So, here's what happened... again, after the third civilian was shot by another civilian, the NOPD (not the feds) made the decision (under the mission statement of, "other safety measures for the protection of life and property") that anyone who was walking the streets or boating in the canals with a weapon that could not present ID or had the weapon outside their home would have their weapons confiscated.
Here's what was NOT in the news or disseminated by the NRA - there were a total of 458 weapons confiscated, all of which were placed in a repository for and 99.9% of the LEO's who confiscated the weapons told the civilians that when it was over, they could go down to their local police station and find out how to go about retrieving their weapons. After about a year, about 50% of the weapons had still not been claimed. People bitched to the NRA instead of going down to the local police station as advised, the NRA took a grandiose soap box position and made a film about the injustice of it all and sued the city to return the weapons - which was the plan all along. The question the NRA NEVER asked those in the film was, "Did you present them with any ID when asked?" Cause the answer would have been, "No."
Now, were mistakes made.... absolutely. No different than mistakes are made in combat (friendly fire, etc.). And, make no mistake, this was a combat zone. And those officers who made those mistakes outside their given orders were reprimanded. In some cases, they were allowed to resign. But, that didn't make the NRA film or news either.
So, there were two situations, 1) those who had legal ownership, but had not retrieved their weapons, had not received them because they were too lazy to take their asses down to the local police station to find out where the repository was, or 2) guess who else didn't come to claim "their" weapons. Here's the really cool part, if you went down to claim your weapon, you didn't even HAVE to prove ownership, no bill of sale, no nothing, except a proper ID (Drivers license) . Just a description of the weapon, bring those weapons out, you point at yours and say, "That's mine." They would write down your name in the Release Log; address, phone number (if available), make, model, caliber, and serial number and hand over the weapon.
The thing is this.. Just as Jesse Jackson can never proclaim that because we now have an African-American President, there is no need for him to continue to point out prejudice in America and state that he's going back to being a preacher, The NRA can never say (and to a certain point is responsible for the errant stupid ass gun control laws) can bring the government a valid solution or legal proposition for legislative consideration because they are not in the business of putting themselves out of a "cause" and out of a job.
You don't think Charlton Heston was their spokesman or their 75 member Board of Directors are in the cause for altruistic reasons, do you? Did you know their CEO makes a million bucks a year, they recently built a new 15 Million dollar "headquarters" and more than 50% of their money goes to fund raising activities. Which is polite for saying what they produce most as an organization is "membership." Between salaries and fund raising activities for membership, that might leave a whole 10% of their revenue stream for the purposes of education as a 501(c)(4) organization.
Just as Jesse Jackson has to sell prejudice to stay in business, the NRA has to sell, "The Dingo's gonna get your baby."
The solution is simple... Every gun is registered to each owner from cradle to grave. Just like a car.
On a final note, you know who are some of the most adamant defenders of the 2nd amendment; Federal, State and Local law enforcement. And they're the one's who get the the bad guys pointing guns at them. By having a national gun registration statute; we can help protect them; protecting us.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.
normiss 622
So no bias in your perspective at all?
Nowhere do I see the authorization to supersede the constitution or my rights to protect myself.
The civilians are not law enforcement personnel, where does "jurisdictional boundary" of a mayor extend to the constitution?
Nowhere do I see the authorization to supersede the constitution or my rights to protect myself.
Quoteultimate responsibility for direction and control of the law enforcement function is vested, by statute, in the Chief Executive Officer of the jurisdiction, e.g., the City Manager/Mayor of incorporated cities, and the County Judge Executive in the remainder of the county. Heads of individual law enforcement agencies have direct control over their own personnel and resources, and exercise direction and control within jurisdictional boundaries. The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction.
The civilians are not law enforcement personnel, where does "jurisdictional boundary" of a mayor extend to the constitution?
BIGUN 1,051
Ya gots to read the whole paragraph. Like the part on, "The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction."
Yes, I got some bias... ya kinda get tired of people sticking a gun in your face to help themselves, when you're there trying to help everyone.
Yes, I got some bias... ya kinda get tired of people sticking a gun in your face to help themselves, when you're there trying to help everyone.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.
Ron 7
QuoteThat is NOT what I'm proposing. But don't you have to take ownership of that car and get it tagged in your name at a tag agency? What I am proposing; is that if you sell a gun, you download an "Ownership Transfer Form" and have the new owner take formal legal ownership of the weapon. Just like a car... That's it.
Like I said before, get a copy of his DL and write the serial number down...If you want, he can sign it. YOU want to add more steps that everyone will have to follow.
QuoteBut, did go back and revisit it - pertains to Class II weapons...
And the Hughes Amendment? You said:
QuoteNot sure why you referred me to this as it has both good and bad things in it. But, if it has to do with Class III weapons (machine guns/silencers), that doesn't preclude you from buying one, it just means you have to fill out the the Form 4.
And you are not correct. You have had to fill out a Form 4 since the NFA act of 1934.
QuoteThe amendment prohibited the general public from possessing fully-auto firearms manufactured after May 19, 1986. Rep. William Hughes (D-N.J.) proposed the amendment late in debate and at night when most of the members of the House were gone. Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y.), a long proponent of gun control, was presiding over the House at that time and a voice vote was taken. Despite the fact that the bill appeared to fail, Rep. Rangel declared the amendment approved and it was incorporated into House Bill 4332.
So, FA weapons are not allowed to be made after May 86 and sold to citizens even though only TWO have EVER been used in a crime.
Still think the Govt does not want to take away your guns?
Just look at England's history
All "reasonable":
The British Gun Control Act of 1920 allowed the purchase of pistols if you could prove a "good reason" and could get a police permit. They banned shotguns and machine guns using the same logic..."Civilians don't need these things" so no one could have a "good reason" to own one.
In 1946, the Home Secretary announced a policy change: henceforth, self-defense would not be considered a "good reason" for being granted a Firearms Certificate
1953 they passed a ban on any "offensive weapon". In 1959 thy banned "flick knives"...Quick opening knifes...Of course no data actually found they were more dangerous than any other knife, but they *sounded* evil.
1966 three cops were killed by revolvers....So Home Secretary Roy Jenkins told Parliament that controls on SHOTGUNS were needed. The Criminal Justice Act of 1967 required a license for the purchase of shotguns now.
Firearms Act of 1982 made certain toy guns illegal.
In 1987 after Hungerford Semi-automatic center fire rifles were banned.
1996 Dunblane. a guy that had been reported to the police several times went on a killing spree.
Feb 1997 all but .22 cal handguns were banned. Blair removed the .22 exemptions from the ban making all handguns illegal.
The anti gun people do not want ANY guns. They just want to take away what they see as the most dangerous at the time...Then they will want to take away what they now see as the most dangerous...Then they will want to take away what they now see as most dangerous.
They will continue to try and remove the "most dangerous" weapons they find. Look at the new AWB...Last time the DOJ said that less than 4% of crimes were committed with a weapon that would be banned, but they banned them anyway. Look at the 1934 NFA and Huges Amendment, only TWO people have EVER been killed by a legal weapon banned by those two.
They will go after the "dangerous ones" till the only guns left are single shot shotguns....Their logic will be, "Who needs more than one shot? Trap and Skeet can change the rules so that it is more single shot friendly...Look, we are not taking away your right to your sports, but multi shot shotguns are too dangerous and criminals will use them to prey on innocents."
QuoteWhat's the big deal? You're a law-abiding citizen, right?
My last class II purchase was a weapon that was made in 86. New it cost about 200 bucks. They now cost 3,500.00.
Want an M16? Dealer samples and LEO's can get them for about 600-700. YOU want one? You can buy a 22 year old one for between 10,000 and 20,000.
There are current lawmakers working on making the transfer of those weapons illegal.
QuoteWhat's the big deal? You're a law-abiding citizen, right?
It should be noted that FDR wanted the 1934 NFA. It put a 200.00 dollar tax on an item that costs less than 10 dollars. You think that was not a "prohibitive tax" meant to preclude people from buying these things? A lower court upheld that in the case of Miller, the SC overturned it.
U.S. v. Miller 1939: A guy was arrested for having a shotgun that was sawed off. The SC :"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less that eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that is use could contribute to the common defense."
But Miller and his lawyer did not show up, and sawed off shotguns WERE used in the military in WW1, WW2, and I was even issued one in 1999. Plus, machine guns ARE issued today, and have been since WW1.
The only other case that the SC has heard on 2nd amendment rights Justice Roberts said: "What is reasonable about a ban?"
Fact is, public perception is that these weapons are bad never mind that since 1934 they have only been used TWICE in a crime.
As recently as after Katrina citizens had their legally owned weapons confiscated.
You STILL think that the Govt does not want you disarmed?
After what you have seen in England, Australia, New Orleans?
After the 1934 NFA, The Hughes Amendment, the 1994 AWB?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
normiss 622
command OVER law enforcement personnel....NOT armed civilians capable of protecting themselves!
If it was that big of an issue of people sticking guns in other's faces, you put the armed civilians at a significant increased risk!
If it was that big of an issue of people sticking guns in other's faces, you put the armed civilians at a significant increased risk!
Ron 7
QuoteBut, as I understand it, the 2nd was mostly added to protect the populous from a rogue government. In today's day and age it is odd that a document places more value on forcibly overthrowing the government than voting for a new one...
That is only if you hold the flawed belief that one Amendment is more important than another.
The fact is that the founding fathers had just revolted from an oppressive Govt. So the 2 most important items at that time were freedom to speak out against Govt actions and the ability to defend your rights.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteI guess not everybody sees voting and owning a gun as identical issues.
Both are protected in the Constitution. The 2nd was in the original.
No, the 2nd was an amendment to the original. Where did you learn civics?
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
rushmc 18
QuoteYa gots to read the whole paragraph. Like the part on, "The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction."
Yes, I got some bias... ya kinda get tired of people sticking a gun in your face to help themselves, when you're there trying to help everyone.
Once again, you go after the gun.
I would submit that those who pointed guns at you most likely did not own them legally to begin with and would not have registered them either. Add to that the fact that the guns were being removed from homes. you know, where people were not pointint them at you.
Sorry, your dog dont hunt
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteYa gots to read the whole paragraph. Like the part on, "The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction."
Yes, I got some bias... ya kinda get tired of people sticking a gun in your face to help themselves, when you're there trying to help everyone.
Once again, you go after the gun.
I would submit that those who pointed guns at you most likely did not own them legally to begin with and would not have registered them either. Add to that the fact that the guns were being removed from homes. you know, where people were not pointint them at you.
Sorry, your dog dont hunt
You have a bad habit of making a guess and then treating it as if it were proven fact.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteQuote
Since I'm six times more likely to be killed by some nutter in traffic with a car, I worry more about that.
.
www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gEmTNUBTKTgCNcd9ZgYJnCNlbPOwD958G9PG0 I wonder why this nutter in traffic didn't use his truck.
People these days are just sheep with no creativity. Fed a steady diet of TV shootings from an early age he probably just imitated what he'd seen.
Ron 7
QuoteNo, the 2nd was an amendment to the original. Where did you learn civics?
The Bill of rights included the first 10. This is a discussion about them.
Where did YOU learn your civics?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuoteYa gots to read the whole paragraph. Like the part on, "The ranking law enforcement officer employed by the jurisdiction will exercise command over all law enforcement personnel deployed in response to an incident or emergency within the jurisdiction."
Yes, I got some bias... ya kinda get tired of people sticking a gun in your face to help themselves, when you're there trying to help everyone.
Once again, you go after the gun.
I would submit that those who pointed guns at you most likely did not own them legally to begin with and would not have registered them either. Add to that the fact that the guns were being removed from homes. you know, where people were not pointint them at you.
Sorry, your dog dont hunt
You have a bad habit of making a guess and then treating it as if it were proven fact.
I know that for you anyone with an opinoin contray to yours has a flawed opinon.
What IS fact though is in NO they were going door to door getting the guns. How did they know they had them? If they were in the house were they being used for crimes? So, those pointin guns to steal were not criminals? Do YOU know they were being held by legal owners?
Of course you dont. You can only guess too.
You have as many non backed opinions as anyone here. The difference is many here have the decency to consider a differing point. To respect or not to respect another opinon. Where do you see yourself here sir?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 1,623
RON wrote:
"Both are protected in the Constitution. The 2nd was in the original."
You wrote:
"Both are protected in the Constitution. The 2nd was in the original."
The BoR was NOT part of the original Constitution, approved September 17th 1787, ratified on June 21, 1788. All 10 amendments were AMENDMENTS to the original, and were not ratified until December 15, 1791, over 3 years AFTER the Constitution.
"Both are protected in the Constitution. The 2nd was in the original."
QuoteQuoteNo, the 2nd was an amendment to the original. Where did you learn civics?
The Bill of rights included the first 10. This is a discussion about them.
Where did YOU learn your civics?
You wrote:
"Both are protected in the Constitution. The 2nd was in the original."
The BoR was NOT part of the original Constitution, approved September 17th 1787, ratified on June 21, 1788. All 10 amendments were AMENDMENTS to the original, and were not ratified until December 15, 1791, over 3 years AFTER the Constitution.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 1,623
QuoteWhere do you see yourself here sir?
I see myself as being able to differentiate guesses and opinions from facts. You just demonstrated that you cannot.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote
The BoR was NOT part of the original Constitution, approved September 17th 1787, ratified on June 21, 1788. All 10 amendments were AMENDMENTS to the original, and were not ratified until December 15, 1791, over 3 years AFTER the Constitution.
This is lamer semantics than usual.
The Constitution is the governing document for our government. It includes all 27 Amendments. Your argument is no less stupid than saying 'the Constitution doesn't give us free speech rights, only the 1st Amendment does that.'
Some states would not have ratified it without the understanding that the Bill of Rights would be one of the first orders of business, and it was exactly that.
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuote
The BoR was NOT part of the original Constitution, approved September 17th 1787, ratified on June 21, 1788. All 10 amendments were AMENDMENTS to the original, and were not ratified until December 15, 1791, over 3 years AFTER the Constitution.
This is lamer semantics than usual.
The Constitution is the governing document for our government. It includes all 27 Amendments. Your argument is no less stupid than saying 'the Constitution doesn't give us free speech rights, only the 1st Amendment does that.'
Some states would not have ratified it without the understanding that the Bill of Rights would be one of the first orders of business, and it was exactly that.
You do understand the meaning of the word "ORIGINAL", right.
Words have meanings, and meanings are important.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteBoth are protected in the Constitution. The 2nd was in the original.
Pretty fucked up document then, when shooting the government is more important than voting for them....
Hardly surprising given the circumstances at the time. The same mentality gave America the Articles of Confederation, a governing entity so weak it failed almost immediately. They feared themselves as much as they did King George.
BIGUN 1,051
QuoteLike I said before, get a copy of his DL and write the serial number down...If you want, he can sign it. YOU want to add more steps that everyone will have to follow.
Wow, that's all I gotta do for a car? So I can just buy the car and do a bill of sale and take the title and drive around all I want. I learned something new.
QuoteAnd you are not correct. You have had to fill out a Form 4 since the NFA act of 1934.
I did say that... just in the section on the Hughes Amendment - fault me for not taking it back to the NFA, but the form was acknowledged.
QuoteJust look at England's history
Let's not compare England and other countries with ours - as we have the right as a constitutional amendment; whereas, they do not. And, we can argue all day about countries that have very few gun laws and very little violent crime (Finland) vs. those with lotsa gun laws and lotsa violent gun crime crime (Mexico).
QuoteMy last class II purchase was a weapon that was made in 86. New it cost about 200 bucks. They now cost 3,500.00.
You do realize that has to do with Market demand the the selling of fear. The weekend after Obama was elected (and I was not an Obama supporter); Gun stores were FLOODED. An FFL friend in Houston sold 50K worth of guns in one weekend. You know why, Cause the NRA sent out a flyer saying the big bad Obama was going to take away our guns and stated quotes he had made which for the most part were untrue. Factcheck.org is a nonpartisan, nonprofit "consumer advocate" for voters that aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics. Please read the following... [/url]http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html
Quote
U.S. v. Miller 1939: A guy was arrested for having a shotgun that was sawed off. The SC :"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less that eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that is use could contribute to the common defense."
I'll grant you this had led to some silliness. What also led up to it was Mr. Miller was a bank robber and moonshiner. The original charge was failure to pay the NFA tax (since the Dept. of Treasury was embarrassed by showing up at one of his distillery's and he'd moved it, they found the gun in a truck). Now, let's go back to the NRA... If they used some of that cool money they get to fight the NFA in the Supreme Court today; they'd probably win. Most of the current members of SCOTUS have rendered opinions on it, but no one has taken it to them.
Quotesawed off shotguns WERE used in the military in WW1, WW2, and I was even issued one in 1999.
No you weren't. Your were issued an "Entry Shotgun" or "Breeching Shotgun"
Have you seen the Remington 870MCS? How cool is that? Talk about home defense!! Can you own it? Depends... since you brought up NFA Each state can have laws that regulate whether its residents can possess Title 2 devices (e.g. Machine Guns, suppressors, Short Barreled Rifle, Short Barreled Shotgun, AOW, etc.). Here's a list of States... [url]http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/FAQ/title_2_regulations.htm"> That's why your choice of weapon costs $3,500 dollars.... because they can get it. QuoteU.S. v. Miller 1939: A guy was arrested for having a shotgun that was sawed off. The SC :"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a “shotgun having a barrel of less that eighteen inches in length” at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that is use could contribute to the common defense."
I'll grant you this had led to some silliness. What also led up to it was Mr. Miller was a bank robber and moonshiner. The original charge was failure to pay the NFA tax (since the Dept. of Treasury was embarrassed by showing up at one of his distillery's and he'd moved it, they found the gun in a truck). Now, let's go back to the NRA... If they used some of that cool money they get to fight the NFA in the Supreme Court today; they'd probably win. Most of the current members of SCOTUS have rendered opinions on it, but no one has taken it to them.
Quotesawed off shotguns WERE used in the military in WW1, WW2, and I was even issued one in 1999.
No you weren't. Your were issued an "Entry Shotgun" or "Breeching Shotgun"
Have you seen the Remington 870MCS? How cool is that? Talk about home defense!! Can you own it? Depends... since you brought up NFA Each state can have laws that regulate whether its residents can possess Title 2 devices (e.g. Machine Guns, suppressors, Short Barreled Rifle, Short Barreled Shotgun, AOW, etc.). Here's a list of States... [url]http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/FAQ/title_2_regulations.htm Back on track, now... This is about the "Gun Show Loop Hole" (secondary market and gun registration and I'll leave it at... I gots no problem with any gun being registered from cradle to grave by each owner. We have to do it for Class II and III, why not Class I?
You guys have a happy holiday and a great new year... it's been a fun mud wrestle. See ya in the skies in the spring.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.
I'm [almost] speechless.
So you've put forth this registration scheme, and kept repeating we have no reason to fear it, and finally now it comes out that you were part of the government taking away guns from people in a crisis where anarchy reigned and people had only themselves to protect their safety. And you took away their means of doing so.
What happened afterwards with reclaiming the guns is beside the point. It's what happened during that matters, and apparently in your mind, if things get ugly, you're fine with taking away people's rights and ability to protect themselves.
I was opposed to your proposal because it was impotent. Now I'm opposed because I don't trust you. And you're exactly the reason why the NRA and (true) civil libertarians so vehemently oppose any attempts at registration.
So you've put forth this registration scheme, and kept repeating we have no reason to fear it, and finally now it comes out that you were part of the government taking away guns from people in a crisis where anarchy reigned and people had only themselves to protect their safety. And you took away their means of doing so.
What happened afterwards with reclaiming the guns is beside the point. It's what happened during that matters, and apparently in your mind, if things get ugly, you're fine with taking away people's rights and ability to protect themselves.
I was opposed to your proposal because it was impotent. Now I'm opposed because I don't trust you. And you're exactly the reason why the NRA and (true) civil libertarians so vehemently oppose any attempts at registration.
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