Is There A Gunshow Loophole?

[mnealtx 0]

Penalty tax on fuel (a la the 'bullet tax')

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[normiss 622]

Would a Mooney be considered an assault weapon due to it's high performance classification?

[mnealtx 0]

Good point!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,623]

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Would a Mooney be considered an assault weapon due to it's high performance classification?

The vast majority of Mooneys are 200hp or less, so they are not classified "high performance".

There is a federal tax on aviation fuel, and you do need a license to operate one, and you do need to register one even if you never take it out of the hangar, and you have to send all bills of sale to the feds, who pass the information along to the states.

So yes, there is significant federal and state involvement with buying, owning, selling and operating an airplane.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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Good point!

Incorrect - see previous post.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Would a Mooney be considered an assault weapon due to it's high performance classification?

The vast majority of Mooneys are 200hp or less, so they are not classified "high performance".

There is a federal tax on aviation fuel, and you do need a license to operate one, and you do need to register one even if you never take it out of the hangar, and you have to send all bills of sale to the feds, who pass the information along to the states.

So yes, there is significant federal and state involvement with buying, owning, selling and operating an airplane.

I would submit in the case you list here it is done so states and the feds verify and insure taxes, fees and licence get paid. (but I dont know that for sure)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

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but I dont know that for sure

Since when did that stop you?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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but I dont know that for sure

Since when did that stop you?

At least I know when to admit it.

Care to comment to the premise of my remarks or dont you know either?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,122]

There are many other sunstances that you need government approval or clearance for. usually have to do with how much damage they could do. In that light, government approval for the sale of fire arms isn't that weird.

[mnealtx 0]

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There are many other sunstances that you need government approval or clearance for. usually have to do with how much damage they could do. In that light, government approval for the sale of fire arms isn't that weird.

Examples? Normal things you'd find around a house or in common use in the general population, please.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,623]

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but I dont know that for sure

Since when did that stop you?

At least I know when to admit it.

Care to comment to the premise of my remarks or dont you know either?

There's no Federal sales tax on planes, so that can't be the reason they want to know the sale price.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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but I dont know that for sure

Since when did that stop you?

At least I know when to admit it.

Care to comment to the premise of my remarks or dont you know either?

There's no Federal sales tax on planes, so that can't be the reason they want to know the sale price.

and the states? do they get the sales notifications from the feds?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BIGUN 1,053]

OK, now we're just getting silly. Equating a Mooney with an assault weapon.

I am not proposing a ban on guns, nor am I even proposing a ban on which types of weapons one can buy and finally, I am opposed to banning the number of rounds a magazine can hold. And, I am one of the most arduous defenders of the 2nd amendment.

Here's what I AM saying, I would not want to see an outright ban on handguns. But unregistered guns begin with someone legally purchasing it. After that initial legal purchase, it's either stolen or sold to someone; call it private individual to private individual (P2P); which while legal, is still a legal loophole. It is a black market and eventually that weapon gets into the wrong hands. Getting guns out of the wrong hands requires responsibility.

All I'm saying is (and I don't understand why it is being met with such resistance) is; If one is the first purchaser of a weapon, that information should be recorded in a national database registry, and each time that weapon changes ownership, there should be an "Ownership Transfer" document from cradle to grave. If I sell you a Glock, I would actually welcome the opportunity to formally transfer ownership and know that gun is no longer associated with me and there is a formal record of the transfer.

If you're wanting to use airplane analogies or car analogies, I'll give you one.. If you sell a car and do not formally transfer title and that car is in an accident resulting in the death of someone and the driver runs off; you are the one investigated first as the legal owner of the vehicle. I know this because one of my best friends, fellow skydiver and DZ pilot's wife was recently killed by someone in a hit and run. A couple of witnesses got a partial plate, but an exact description of the car. It was traced back to the owner who "said" he'd sold it... no bill of sale, no title transfer, nothing. He was arrested and folded telling that his cousin (an illegal alien was using the car).

The point of this is, we do a formal legal transference of homes, cars, motorcycles, airplanes, etc., all of which goes into a national database, but no one is denied the right of ownership as long as they are qualified to have ownership. If the police find a weapon on the street that has no title, then it gets confiscated and over time, the number of "black market" weapons dwindles and MOST of us that are law-abiding citizens will have guns and the criminals armory will dwindle.

Would some still break into homes to steal guns... yes, but there are two scenarios now, One is; that law-abiding citizen has a weapon to defend themselves against intrusion with a legally owned registered weapon and if stolen can make a police report. And, just as with a car being stolen; the police receive a BOLO for that stolen weapon which increases the charges against the criminal.* Do you know how many people report stolen guns from their homes and when asked if they have the serial number - have no clue? If my truck is stolen, I'm not sure I can tell you my tag number, much less the VIN, but the police can pull my name up on the computer and fetch it in about 30 seconds.

Does the government tell you - you can't own a Corvette or a One ton Dually.... no, they only ask that you register it and take ownership for it and that information goes into a database and if your car is stolen, when found can be returned to its rightful owner and the thief is prosecuted... and that's only a privilege, not a constitutional right.

With a P2P purchase - right now, I can "sell" you a gun and not even have to do a bill of sale. Then, you sell, to "X," who sells to "Y," who sells to "Z," who commits a murder.

The police have to start with the manufacturer who goes to the wholesaler, who goes to the dealer, who goes thru his/her yellow sheets and finds owner number one. Owner number one says, "I sold it." To who?, Don't remember a name, I sold it to a person at the gun show... trail is dead and the case takes time, can turn cold and that victim's family only knows that their family member was killed with a gun in which the murderer can't be found. Instead of the scenario of that gun is owned by Person Z and we have him/her in custody.

All bans, calibers, types of weapons aside, Are you seriously going to tell me that you would have a problem with having to register a gun or legally transfer ownership to maintain a chain of ownership just as you have to with your vehicle would impinge on your rights to own any weapon or caliber under the constitution?

Do you guys that are digging in your heels for the right to ownership feel that its some government plot to rid you of the second amendment and your right to own guns if we formalize legal transfer? Cause if you do... you're actually making it harder on yourselves and partly responsible for all these errant laws that mean squat and force control, rather than allowing for responsibility.

Every time someone is murdered with a weapon used that cannot be traced to the offender, that family just became a proponent of gun control and endorse the stupid ass laws and new laws that aren't doing shit and only pressing you guys further into your position. Let's become champions of gun responsibility by recommending a chain of ownership from cradle to grave.

*EDIT: Let's flip this around. You purchased a gun in a P2P transaction at a gun show. A year later, someone breaks into your house and comes at you with a gun and you kill them. The police confiscate the gun as part of the investigation and come back to you a week later and say, "Mr. Smith, our ballistics check shows this gun was used in a homicide a year ago, can you explain how long you had this gun?" "I bought it at a gun show." "From who?" "I don't know.. Guess who's going downtown and is now a "person of interest?"

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[kallend 1,623]

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OK, now we're just getting silly. Equating a Mooney with an assault weapon.

When all you have to throw are shoes, that's what you throw.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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OK, now we're just getting silly. Equating a Mooney with an assault weapon.

When all you have to throw are shoes, that's what you throw.

Spoken by someone who knows

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 622]

Simple.
We don't trust our government with such information.

A number of years ago in Florida the ENTIRE concealed weapons registration database was made public.
"Read list of places to steal weapons and where to go to collect them when the next hurricane blows through because we don't trust our LEGAL gun owners" is not my idea of a database I'd care to be a part of.

I can't trust my government with my tax money or my social security number as it is now...and you want me to tell them I have guns?

Not an acceptable answer to most guns owners. Especially legal owners.

I can only imagine how far out of date the database would be. The current N-number registry of aircraft is woefully behind being current for starters.

I have plenty of weapons in my home that do not require registration or "chain of custody".
Where would this end???

All in the interest of safety - then damn near everything we have is going to require our government to approve???
When is the last time you saw good model glue???

[BIGUN 1,053]

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...and you want me to tell them I have guns?

Not an acceptable answer to most guns owners. Especially legal owners.

huh? Is this an oxymoron test?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Amazon 7]

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1. Violent criminals go to jail and stay in jail.
Use violence? Get locked up. Have a gun with you during a crime? You *serve* 10 years. Use a gun to commit the crime? You do 20. Shoot it? Life, no parole.

2. Allow carry in all 50 States plus DC with a permit from any one State just like a drivers license. The carry permit will require an actual practical test but one that cannot be more difficult than the police test for the State of issue.

3. Keep NICS and keep the data private. Improve reporting to the system. Mandate that people diagnosed with violent tendencies are reported by care providers, but provide a real method to have your name removed from the list.

4. Remove "Gun Free" zones...How many shootings have happened at schools where guns are not allowed, vs how many have happened at gun shows where they are everywhere?

5. Remove Bans, one gun a mth BS...ect.

Basically punish actions, not items.

I can live with that..

I cant believe I am actually agreeing with a post by you

[normiss 622]

Apparently it is.
The government currently has no clue what weapons I have nor how many.
I don't see that changing.
Criminals are typically stupid enough to tell them what they have.

Like the roadside search I saw this past weekend without a warrant.

[Ron 7]

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But, you didn't address the private individual to private individual sales.

Because it is not the problem. If you had a skydiving rig I wanted to buy....Should that transaction go through a rigger?

Name one other thing that requires govt approval for individuals to sell to each other.

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Actually, Bill was pre-approved by the government before the purchase up to and including a physical in which the results were reported to the FAA if anything was outta whack (Blood Pressure Meds, etc.) not to mention licensure.

Incorrect. Anyone can BUY an airplane whenever they want one, license or not, medical or not.

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call it private individual to private individual (P2P); which while legal, is still a legal loophole.

It is not a loophole, it is one of the last remaining freedoms. You see it as a "loophole" I see it as a part of legal ownership that the govt has not regulated, but anti gunners do want regulated.

In that manner it is the same as some non jumpers would be perfectly fine in requiring all gear sales through a rigger....They don't care, but it would step all over your rights.

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If I sell you a Glock, I would actually welcome the opportunity to formally transfer ownership and know that gun is no longer associated with me and there is a formal record of the transfer.

Just copy his DL# and write the serial number on it...Done. If you want to get anal, you could have him sign it.

Name one other item that requires the fed to approve the sale from P2P?

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I'll give you one.. If you sell a car and do not formally transfer title and that car is in an accident resulting in the death of someone and the driver runs off; you are the one investigated first as the legal owner of the vehicle.

OK so tho fix that you think each car purchase should have to be done through a dealer? That is what you are proposing.

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Do you guys that are digging in your heels for the right to ownership feel that its some government plot to rid you of the second amendment and your right to own guns if we formalize legal transfer?

Do me a favor...Read up on the 1934 NFA act. And then read up on the 1986 Huges amendment.

Then come back and tell me you still think that registration will not lead to something else.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,623]

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But, you didn't address the private individual to private individual sales.

Because it is not the problem. If you had a skydiving rig I wanted to buy....Should that transaction go through a rigger?

Name one other thing that requires govt approval for individuals to sell to each other.

If skydiving rigs were used in 17,000 murders each year, and some 2 million other crimes, I would expect the government to take a serious interest in all rig transactions.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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Oh? So what you're saying is that you're for registration, taxing and licensing of guns and owners (just like cars) as long as they can be bought and sold just the same.

Sure and then any 16 year old can carry a gun after passing a simple test. Then he can carry a gun anywhere in the US.

I guess you are for background checks to buy cars then?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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Examples? Normal things you'd find around a house or in common use in the general population, please.

I feel a semantics argument following this one on what is considered normal, as an example, to me having guns in the house is not normal and requiring some form of approval from the government is very normal.

[Ron 7]

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If skydiving rigs were used in 17,000 murders each year, and some 2 million other crimes, I would expect the government to take a serious interest in all rig transactions.

What limits will you allow on the 1st? The 4th? The 14th, 15th?

I guess you want to have background checks to vote then?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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I guess you want to have background checks to vote then?

I guess not everybody sees voting and owning a gun as identical issues.

Some might even argue that some one with a mental issue could do more damage with one gun than with one vote.