California Supreme Court Holds that Gay Marriage must be Allowed under the California Constitution

[labrys 0]

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Great! I'll soon be able to marry that goat I've had my eye on. Make that several goats. No, no, no, make that several under aged goats. Slippery slope don't ya know.

I married an ass 25 years ago and no one objected. I sure wish that had been against the law.

Owned by Remi #?

[Lindsey 0]

[I]but I still believe the core of law is founded on morality.

Problem is that morality isn't absolute. It's subjective. Why should your beliefs, or mine, about who should love whom impact other people's lives so dramatically as to keep them from marrying when their beliefs, though in contradiction to yours, are perfectly valid?

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[lawrocket 3]

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I know very little about the law, but I still believe the core of law is founded on morality.

Indeed. Whose morality? Whomever happens to be in charge.

It is FOUNDED upon morality, but not necessarily reflective. At times, we all have our own personal morals and ethics challenged.

But I'll put it to you this way - the only morals you can enforce are your own. If you believe oral sex to be immoral, don't practice it. If you believe that alcohol is the work of the devil, don't drink.

So long as another person is not impinging on you or on others, then what is the problem?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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[I]but I still believe the core of law is founded on morality.

Problem is that morality isn't absolute. It's subjective. Why should your beliefs, or mine, about who should love whom impact other people's lives so dramatically as to keep them from marrying when their beliefs, though in contradiction to yours, are perfectly valid?

Of course your right. So, you dont think that laws are founded on morality? Mind you now, this is the the basis of Philosophy, and I dont know if I my work will allow me to engage in a year long debate

"We didn't start the fire"

[labrys 0]

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Of course your right. So, you dont think that laws are founded on morality? Mind you now, this is the the basis of Philosophy, and I dont know if I my work will allow me to engage in a year long debate

What Lindsey said was that perception of morality wasn't absolute. How do you translate that into "you dont think that laws are founded on morality?"

Owned by Remi #?

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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I know very little about the law, but I still believe the core of law is founded on morality.

Indeed. Whose morality? Whomever happens to be in charge.

It is FOUNDED upon morality, but not necessarily reflective. At times, we all have our own personal morals and ethics challenged.

But I'll put it to you this way - the only morals you can enforce are your own. If you believe oral sex to be immoral, don't practice it. If you believe that alcohol is the work of the devil, don't drink.

So long as another person is not impinging on you or on others, then what is the problem?

So you dont think that there is such a thing as influence? The choices you make (which are not harmful to anyone) do affect others whether we like it or not. Its just the truth.

The very foundation of philosophy is mans morality vs Gods morality. Man represents evil, God represents good. Evil works in deception, so many who believe they are doing the good and right thing are buying into the lie and they dont even know it.

That being said. I dont believe drinking is a sin. I dont drink anymore, but I dont think it is wrong either. I do think there is a point when drinking becomes addictive and dangerous, and from that moment, all sorts of consequences can and do take root.

"We didn't start the fire"

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Of course your right. So, you dont think that laws are founded on morality? Mind you now, this is the the basis of Philosophy, and I dont know if I my work will allow me to engage in a year long debate

What Lindsey said was that perception of morality wasn't absolute. How do you translate that into "you dont think that laws are founded on morality?"

Good point. I believe I missed that. This all came about because several people now have stated that the government has nothing to do with morality. That just sounds a bit strange to me. I did, however misinterpret Lindsey. Sorry about that.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Lindsey 0]

People are fickle. We've already established that you used to think like me (though I kind of doubt it), and I used to think like you.

Why should our public policies be determined by some kind of morality that can't keep itself straight??? Morality is dependent on the person and the day, and of course the person's mood that day. I value other people enough to trust their mood that day as much as I trust mine. And I say that as far as morality goes, ain't NONE of us got it right.

Because of all that mumbo jumbo, our laws should not favor your ideas over mine or favor the Christian's over the agnostic's or favor the staunchly hetero alpha male over the bull dyke's with a strap-on. Her ideas about who she chooses to spend her life with are even MORE pertinent than mine or yours. And her relationship with her lover should hold equal esteem, under the law, with yours.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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People are fickle. We've already established that you used to think like me (though I kind of doubt it), and I used to think like you.

Why should our public policies be determined by some kind of morality that can't keep itself straight??? Morality is dependent on the person and the day, and of course the person's mood that day. I value other people enough to trust their mood that day as much as I trust mine. And I say that as far as morality goes, ain't NONE of us got it right.

Because of all that mumbo jumbo, our laws should not favor your ideas over mine or favor the Christian's over the agnostic's or favor the staunchly hetero alpha male over the bull dyke's with a strap-on. Her ideas about who she chooses to spend her life with are even MORE pertinent than mine or yours. And her relationship with her lover should hold equal esteem, under the law, with yours.

So when Im angry or in a bad mood during the wrong time of year, its ok for me to rob someone? But, liberal thinking says, maybe if I am broke, homeless, desperate, hungry? The question shouldnt be is it right sometimes, the question should be is it right? And that should be the model. Now whether or not people follow the model, that is entirely something else. I know morality is a huge, long-standing issue, but fundamentally the answer should be yes or no. As long as that is the answer, then of course, we are all guilty. Next they will say, as will all liberals, that a 15 yr old is considered old enough for sex, stripping any chance that she might have of holding and keeping something sacred for herself, due to the influence of a liberal society. This is the direction we are going with this "as long as its not hurting anyone" philosophy.

"We didn't start the fire"

[Lindsey 0]

Thank you. Everything you just said demonstrates nicely why our laws should not reflect our ficke ways and moods and times of the month. Good thing we have our federal and state Constitutions to fall back on when our sensibilities fail us...lol.

:)
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[billvon 2,433]

>the question should be is it right? And that should be the model.

No, it shouldn't. The question should be - is it lawful?

It's not right to smoke. There's absolutely nothing good about it, and if you do it in a way that harms someone else, they might make you stop. But should I get to say that you can't smoke in your own house, because I think it's wrong?

> Next they will say, as will all liberals, that a 15 yr old is considered old
>enough for sex . . .

I'm a liberal and I don't think that.

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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>the question should be is it right? And that should be the model.

No, it shouldn't. The question should be - is it lawful?

It's not right to smoke. There's absolutely nothing good about it, and if you do it in a way that harms someone else, they might make you stop. But should I get to say that you can't smoke in your own house, because I think it's wrong?

> Next they will say, as will all liberals, that a 15 yr old is considered old
>enough for sex . . .

I'm a liberal and I don't think that.

No offense Bill, but I know your a liberal Remember, your a peacemaker! I dont believe that people should automatically assume that they are not liked because someone doesnt like something they do. This happens unfortunately. Nevertheless, by the direction the liberal thought is going, maybe even you would change your mind to the 15yr old in time? Forgive me, but by your logic this is what I see and aparently the law will do what the law wants to do, not only because thats what it does, but because the liberal thought allows it to do it.

Like the movie the matrix, we are slowly giving our society over to something beyond ourselves. Soon, (and it may not happen in your lifetime), the law will take away all of our freedoms. Just look at the justice system, it is riddled with action against injustice. It wont really have an impact in ones life, until he is up against it. At that time one should have something else that the deciever holds higher than God...Money.

"We didn't start the fire"

[skybytch 259]

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Soon, (and it may not happen in your lifetime), the law will take away all of our freedoms.

Giving homosexuals the right to marry (ie more freedom) is a step along the way to losing all our freedoms? Please explain, cuz I'm confused.

[billvon 2,433]

>Nevertheless, by the direction the liberal thought is going, maybe
>even you would change your mind to the 15yr old in time?

Will you change your mind and decide that gays should be killed because the Bible tells you to do it? After all, other Christians have used such logic to kill gays:

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Terry Mark Mangum, 26, told [Brazoria County newspaper] The Facts in a jailhouse interview Friday that he had targeted and killed Cummings because he was homosexual and that he stabbed him in the head. He called his actions “God’s justice.”

Mangum - who claimed he has studied the Bible for “thousands and thousands and thousands of hours” - said God first commanded him to kill during a “visitation,” or dream, while he was in prison in 2001.
=========

>the law will do what the law wants to do, not only because thats what
>it does, but because the liberal thought allows it to do it.

The law does what it does because the CONSTITUTION allows it to do it.

>Soon, (and it may not happen in your lifetime), the law will take away
>all of our freedoms.

It may. If it does, it will be because people like yourself want to take them away, as you support taking away the right for gays to marry. I have no doubt that you have only the best of intentions for denying gays this freedom - but when you are denied a right that _you_ enjoy, you will not have a leg to stand on.

[jcd11235 0]

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Yes- quality of education. Though they want to say otherwise, they fear that a school full of poor kids will drag down the quality of education.

Any evidence to support that claim, or is it baseless?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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Soon, (and it may not happen in your lifetime), the law will take away all of our freedoms.

Giving homosexuals the right to marry (ie more freedom) is a step along the way to losing all our freedoms? Please explain, cuz I'm confused.

Holding the law higher than morality gives no limit to what the law can do. As our liberal minds evolve, it becomes acceptable (by strong conviction) for almost anything. So acceptable that those who do believe some things just arent right (like the 15 yr old) are actualy persecuted against. I was only making a point that the evolving mind of the liberal (do what you want as long as it doesnt hurt others) will inevitably be in a position (due to influence) to accept what is right by the law and not by what they truly believe to be as right. Im saying that the law will govern your own morality....Never been caught up in the injustices of the judicial system before? The more laws we have, because we keep dodging the core issues of morality, the more we are governed by. Nothing can be done about this. My opinion counts for absolutely nothing...Im sure you disagree.

"We didn't start the fire"

[billvon 2,433]

> I was only making a point that the evolving mind of the liberal (do
>what you want as long as it doesnt hurt others) will inevitably be in a
>position (due to influence) to accept what is right by the law and not by
>what they truly believe to be as right.

Just as the mind of the religious conservative might inevitably be drawn to what the Bible says (i.e. kill gays) instead of what the law says (i.e. murder is illegal.) But I have a feeling most religious conservatives would no more do that than a liberal would condone sex with a 15 year old.

[jcd11235 0]

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I guess you really havent met anyone who has found shame in themselves in regards to homosexual "encounters"?

Typically, if there is any shame, it is a result of, not the encounter, but society's view of homosexuality. Fortunately, that is changing, and gays are less likely all the time to suffer from such stigmas.

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I dont judge the decisions they make/made, but I still believe it is right to keep what is right, right. I believe its everyones God-given right to make a judgement. If you find making a judgement, the same as being the judge of someone, then you dont see the difference.

Rationalize it however you want to, it won't change the hypocrisy.

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I cant help but think that this is more a personal issue with you and I, and Im sorry about that.

I don't see that. Do you have a personal issue with me?

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I dont believe God made anyone an addict, but we have seen that people are influenced both genetically and by their enviornment.

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Yeah, I guess an evolutionist would think that way.

If acknowledging the validity of evolution, for which their is a huge amount of credible evidence, makes me an evolutionist, it is a label I'm proud to wear. Can I also claim to be a cosmologist because I believe cosmology provides better explanations than Genesis? Can I be a quantum physicist because I believe the Uncertainty Principle?

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We all have our challenges …

Agreed.

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… the world is under the control of darkness.

What?!? How so?

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I understand you want to find flaws in God, but the flaws you are pointing out are more a testiment to mans flaws.

I think many would argue that concept of a supernatural god is an example of man's flaws.

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You and I simply dont agree with what we believe to be moral and immoral. My stance is that our model of morality shouldnt involve homosexuality, however, I dont think it should seperate people at the heart level.

How can you claim that our model of morality shouldn't involve homosexuality, while simultaneously claiming homosexuality is immoral? You can't have it both ways.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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> I was only making a point that the evolving mind of the liberal (do
>what you want as long as it doesnt hurt others) will inevitably be in a
>position (due to influence) to accept what is right by the law and not by
>what they truly believe to be as right.

Just as the mind of the religious conservative might inevitably be drawn to what the Bible says (i.e. kill gays) instead of what the law says (i.e. murder is illegal.) But I have a feeling most religious conservatives would no more do that than a liberal would condone sex with a 15 year old.

Lets hope not, thats really all we can do anyway. Good conversation though...I have to go now.

"We didn't start the fire"

[jcd11235 0]

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The very foundation of philosophy is mans morality vs Gods morality.

Incorrect. Philosophy, which literally means "love of wisdom" (or "love of knowledge"), at its very foundation is about obtaining knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

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Man represents evil, God represents good.

God has no place in secular government.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[chinagirl 0]

***I would be very interested to see what you believe to be right and wrong. I truly am sorry if you believe I am coming off as egocentric.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The more laws we have, because we keep dodging the core issues of morality, the more we are governed by. Nothing can be done about this. My opinion counts for absolutely nothing...Im sure you disagree.

In this case, we're not adding laws, we're subtracting ones that prohibit actions. And this is the evolution of our morals if you insist on the word - over time our society is eliminating circumstances in which it will tell a segment of the population what they can and cannot do.

Your question of whether robbery be considered moral is corrupt - clearly that is a case of one person benefitting at the direct and clearly provable expense of another. The restrictions on minorities for being minorities doesn't have pass such a test - other than to say that it would hurt men/whites/straights because they can no longer benefit from the prior normal discrimination.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes- quality of education. Though they want to say otherwise, they fear that a school full of poor kids will drag down the quality of education.

Any evidence to support that claim, or is it baseless?

Actions. When you get older and associate more with parents rather than children, you'll see lots of it. Political beliefs get trumped by parental fears every day of the week. Demonstrated in this forum on the subject of 'scary child predators.'

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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***I would be very interested to see what you believe to be right and wrong. I truly am sorry if you believe I am coming off as egocentric.

*shaking head*

You just don't get it do you? It doesn't matter what ~I~ believe, or what ~you~ believe to be right and wrong. What matters is that people have the same rights to make choices in their private lives!

[rynodigsmusic 0]

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The very foundation of philosophy is mans morality vs Gods morality.

Incorrect. Philosophy, which literally means "love of wisdom" (or "love of knowledge"), at its very foundation is about obtaining knowledge for the sake of knowledge.

>>>>Im sorry about that. I took a philosophy class at one point and the entire class was around one question.."Is it right becasue God says its right, or is it right because it is right?" I believe it was about the moral aspect of philosophy. But it is interesting to me that it is called the love of wisdom. Again, sorry about that.

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Man represents evil, God represents good.

God has no place in secular government.

>>>>Yes and I find it very interesting that this nations principles were founded on God. Somehow, now we have the right to just go ahead and take God out. I just hope that we are able to see that we are the cause of the future destructions instead of harboring all the blame towards God. I still believe strongly that man is evil and God is good.

"We didn't start the fire"