Should we leave Iraq unfinished?

[joedirt 0]

Can we just blow off what the president says about fighting them "over there", I can't help but think there's some truth to what he says. What will happen if we leave Iraq, will the jihad movement just move to afghsnistan/pakistan, or would they begin to speed up their plans for the continental U.S.? There's no question the 21st century jihad will do everything in their power to inflict harm upon the U.S., but where and when? Do most Americans get this? Have we gotten comfortable since 9/11.

I have to blow off what a lot of democrats say because they have been saying we should leave Iraq since not even a year after they voted to invade. Either we should fight to win or not fight at all right? Or should we know when to fold our hand?

We certainly have screwed up some of the broader strategy over the last few years (not to mention the whole WMD issue), but can we win with our modern day attitude about war. Apparently a lot of people think wars should be like Desert Storm, few casualties (on our side) - quick victory, otherwise it isn't worth it, and we should give up. Should our generals fight like Sherman, Ike, and Patton, is that even a possibility? It seems like we fuck everthing up every time we fight for anything other than unconditional surrender. The public won't support a long war when there is no one surrendering, and seemingly no progress, as far as they can see. We can kill 10, 20 or 100 enemy for every U.S. soldier that is killed, but it doesn't seem to matter. We learned that 35 years ago right?

It would be nice to hear from any military officers or history buffs. Don't bother with partisan opinions here, I'm just thinking about strategy and realistic expectations. Oh and I understand how grunts will complain about anything, so don't say your third cousins boyfriends brother (who is a private) said we can't win. Private joe snuffy may join up because he's a noble son of a bitch, but three weeks without a shower and he's writing his congressman. Grunts are courageous, but they complain, I've been there, I was one. When I was in the middle east my commander told us "some rich guy's kid" was declaring war on the U.S. and then we found out about the embassies in Africa. I didn't think it was that big of a deal untill 9/11.

[kallend 1,623]

We were promised that it would be "less than 6 months" four years ago. And again three years ago it would be "just another six months". And again. And again.

What makes you think we actually have the option of finishing it under this clueless CinC?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Ignore the puppy.

Anyway, you have some good points and although I am about to get gas thrown on me


I believe this president knows what needs to be done. He does not care about polls or being liked. He does what he beleives to be right. He has a vision. Mistakes? sure they have been made and some big ones but he is not evil and certinly not stupid.

But what I really like about him is he really really pushes the left anger buttons

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[ryoder 1,384]

Iraq was finished the day our Idiot-in-Chief decided to ignore our military leaders and invade a nation with no plans nor manpower to maintain control once the existing government was decapitated.

If there were two sides, there would be a possibility of winning. When you are standing in the middle of a three-way civil war, (Sunni vs Shia vs Al-Queda), the concept of "winning" is meaningless.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[quade 3]

Tell me what would "finished" mean.
Tell me what "winning" would mean.

Define the terms in this situation and I'll tell you if we should do it, but as it is, those terms are completely undefined. Further, I don't think they can be.

With that in mind, we should get out.

The problem with GWB, as I see it, is he appears to think it's like a checkers game. That is to say that you can't tell exactly how many moves you have to make, but that if you make the right ones, you can win at some point.

The reality is that it's more like, well, REAL LIFE, where things simply continue and there is no end. If there's -anything- we should have learned by now it's that in the middle east, conflicts do not end; ever.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[joedirt 0]

That's a good point. "finishing it" could mean a lot of things I guess. We could put troops in - take them out- as if the U.S exists in a vacuum. As if the rest of the world does not respond to what we do.

I guess the only real meaning for "finishing" is victory over the present jihadist movement, (which doesn't necessarily have to do with Iraq pre 2003, but it does now unfortunately). We will have to get far more ruthless to beat this enemy, which we won't do, untill or unless they get a nuke, then opinions will change.

[algboy 0]

"He has a vision."

Beware of Naked Emperors who have visions, talk to god, don't read and surround themselves with unqualified apparatchiks.

We . . . are . . . so . . . fooked

[jenfly00 0]

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Ignore the puppy.

Anyway, you have some good points and although I am about to get gas thrown on me


I believe this president knows what needs to be done. He does not care about polls or being liked. He does what he beleives to be right. He has a vision. Mistakes? sure they have been made and some big ones but he is not evil and certinly not stupid.

But what I really like about him is he really really pushes the left anger buttons

Not gas, my brother ...just gentle showers of sympathy and sincere hopes you, someday, will open your eyes to reality.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[wmw999 2,122]

Did the communists take over the US after we left Vietnam? Did they take over any other countries over there?

The President has a vision, and he's sticking to it. Unfortunately, I don't think it's a realistic vision, and saying you really really really really want something to happen, and will work (or make others work) really really really really hard to get there -- doesn't mean you will.

(note for those who say if you want to badly enough you can do anything: I will never be an NFL linebacker, no matter how badly I want to)

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Amazon 7]

Its really too bad that Daddy Bush couldnt have left something unfinished...with Barbara... woulda saved the whole world from this pain in the ass incompetent.

[joedirt 0]

Aren't there differences between communists and radical Islam? Communism had nukes before the U.S. ever set foot in Korea or Vietnam. Communists also fought to win, not to die.

"Did the communists take over the U.S. after we left Vietnam?"

An army invasion of the U.S. isn't what we should focus on, I think most people understand that by now.

"Did they take over any other countries over there?"

Ever hear of Ho Chi Mihn City? How about the Khmer Rouge?

[akarunway 1]

Read this one>http://www.chomsky.info/books/warfare01.htm Or "Blundering into Disaster"

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[IanHarrop 37]

Do you really think that this is war that can be won such that there will be peace and no terrorism in Iraq?

It's the middle east buddy, they've been hating and killing each other for a long time. Not going to change no matter how many Americans get killed there.

This is not a solvable problem, unless you're prepared to put a ruthless dictator in charge to run the country with an iron fist and who murders anyone that dares to show signs of violence. OOPS, I almost forgot... there was a guy like that but he got executed a few months back.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[crozby 0]

Yes, we should leave. The British General Sir Michael Rose has just commented on this. He told the Newsnight programme in the UK:

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"As Lord Chatham said, when he was speaking on the British presence in North America, he said 'if I was an American, as I am an Englishman, as long as one Englishman remained on American native soil, I would never, never, never lay down my arms'.

The Iraqi insurgents feel exactly the same way."

He said it was time to bring troops home.

"It is the soldiers who have been telling me from the frontline that the war they have been fighting is a hopeless war, that they cannot possibly win it and the sooner we start talking politics and not military solutions, the sooner they will come home and their lives will be preserved."

This meant the UK government would have to admit defeat, he added.

"The British admitted defeat in North America and the catastrophes that were predicted at the time never happened," the ex-Bosnia UN chief said.

"The catastrophes that were predicted after Vietnam never happened.

"The same thing will occur after we leave Iraq."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6618075.stm

[DFWAJG 4]

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Iraq was finished the day our Idiot-in-Chief decided to ignore our military leaders and invade a nation with no plans nor manpower to maintain control once the existing government was decapitated.

If there were two sides, there would be a possibility of winning. When you are standing in the middle of a three-way civil war, (Sunni vs Shia vs Al-Queda), the concept of "winning" is meaningless.

There are no winners in war. All sides suffer losses.

[rushmc 18]

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Ignore the puppy.

Anyway, you have some good points and although I am about to get gas thrown on me


I believe this president knows what needs to be done. He does not care about polls or being liked. He does what he beleives to be right. He has a vision. Mistakes? sure they have been made and some big ones but he is not evil and certinly not stupid.

But what I really like about him is he really really pushes the left anger buttons

Not gas, my brother ...just gentle showers of sympathy and sincere hopes you, someday, will open your eyes to reality.

I too wish the same for you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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Aren't there differences between communists and radical Islam? Communism had nukes before the U.S. ever set foot in Korea or Vietnam. Communists also fought to win, not to die.

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There is a huge difference. You should really take a look closer

"Did the communists take over the U.S. after we left Vietnam?Did they commit genicide?

An army invasion of the U.S. isn't what we should focus on, I think most people understand that by now.

"Did they take over any other countries over there?"

Ever hear of Ho Chi Mihn City? How about the Khmer Rouge?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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[jenfly00 0]

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I too wish the same for you

sigh


A man is convinced he is dead. His wife and kids are exasperated. They keep telling him he's not dead. But he continues to insist he's dead.

They try telling him, "Look, you're not dead; you're walking and talking and breathing; how can you be dead?" But he continues to insist he is dead.

The family finally takes him to a doctor. The doctor pulls out some medical books to demonstrate to the man that dead men do not bleed. After some time, the man admits that dead men do not bleed.

The doctor then takes the man's hand and a needle and pokes the end of his finger. The man starts bleeding. He looks at his finger and says, "My God, I don't understand how I could have been so wrong!"









DEAD MEN DO BLEED!"

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[rushmc 18]

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I too wish the same for you

sigh


A man is convinced he is dead. His wife and kids are exasperated. They keep telling him he's not dead. But he continues to insist he's dead.

They try telling him, "Look, you're not dead; you're walking and talking and breathing; how can you be dead?" But he continues to insist he is dead.

The family finally takes him to a doctor. The doctor pulls out some medical books to demonstrate to the man that dead men do not bleed. After some time, the man admits that dead men do not bleed.

The doctor then takes the man's hand and a needle and pokes the end of his finger. The man starts bleeding. He looks at his finger and says, "My God, I don't understand how I could have been so wrong!"

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I am sorry you are so wrong. I know it is easy to take the path you are on. Great leaders lead, the rest bitch and follow.,....

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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[SkyDekker 1,123]

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That's a good point. "finishing it" could mean a lot of things I guess.

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I guess the only real meaning for "finishing"

Your question is kind of pointless if you can't define what "finishing" or "victory" or "winning" in this scenario is.

The easy answer to your question would be: declare victory, tell the world your finished after clearly winning and bring the tropps home. With everything undefined, this should make everybody happy....

[Amazon 7]

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There are no winners in war.

Eisenhower would disagree with you. He warned to beware of those who DO win nicely in any war.... the Military Indusrial Complex.... its not something abstract.. its real.. and those who are in it cause war to profit.

This never ending war that Bush and his PNAC buddies have gotten America into... will line their bank accounts very nicely.. for at LEAST a generation to come... all it requires is for your normal Americans to sacrifice their children for their profit.

[rehmwa 2]

I don't know, a lot of chairs and couches may have been destroyed, but isn't it better if we help to repair the water systems and power plants and roads, etc before we start worrying about the furnishings?

I mean, these are modern people, certainly the local upholsterers need the business as well.

So, I vote "Yes, we should leave Iraq unfurnished" there are more important things to do.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[joedirt 0]

Wow... tough crowd you got here.
Lets just get the bong out and read rolling stone magazine for our perspective on history. It'd be easier. I suppose Arabs will be Arabs... they just like to fight... screw it.

Furnishings - too funny.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Tell me what would "finished" mean.
Tell me what "winning" would mean.

Define the terms in this situation and I'll tell you if we should do it, but as it is, those terms are completely undefined. Further, I don't think they can be.

With that in mind, we should get out.

The problem with GWB, as I see it, is he appears to think it's like a checkers game. That is to say that you can't tell exactly how many moves you have to make, but that if you make the right ones, you can win at some point.

The reality is that it's more like, well, REAL LIFE, where things simply continue and there is no end. If there's -anything- we should have learned by now it's that in the middle east, conflicts do not end; ever.

Excellent post!

Too many people on this forum toss out statements like "winning in Iraq". They use terms like "winning" & saying that withdrawing from Iraq would be "surrendering" & so on.

Basically these people are locked into the mentality (& hence, the vocabulary) of conventional warfare, which is definitely NOT what we've got going on in Iraq.


We are in an occupation of a foreign country which has a multi-group insurgency.

An occupation of a country is not won or lost, it is simply endured.

Until we finally develop the guts or the brains to leave.

Speed Racer
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[Bogey 0]

America can't "win" this war because:
1. Bush started a war on loose grounds (why he did it we leave for another day) and the only reason he managed to start it was because people was still shocked from 9/11 and thus he launched a war against Iraq (anyone who read a psychology book knows how people band togeather during war/national crisis). And when people had a chance to reflect about the situation he lost most of his support.

You can't win a war your own countrymen dosn't support.

2. The invasion of Iraq was on one side good, stop the evil reign of Saddam but looking at it from another angle - the only thing in Iraq keeping it stable was Saddam. So when USA invaded and captured Saddam you immediately started a civil war.
This civil war has 3-4 sides Shia, Sunni, Al-Qaeda and the Kurds (Kurds are less involved).

All of these sides want to rule, Shia and Sunni are to quite different "types" of Islam, very simply put, one believes that the regim should be by an ascendant of muhammed and the other one doesn't. Kurds on the other hand are neither, kurds are the worlds largest ethnic group and have been heavily suppressed by the countries they live in (mainly Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey). Thus they are not on too good terms with neither shia or sunni. Al-Qaeda is on the other hand a terrorist group claiming to fight for Islam but don't really follow the religion (breaking many of it's laws).

So, when Bush invaded all of these sides wanted power, America basicaly said: "GET ALONG!" and thats not how it works in reality. Now Iraq has a split regime as well as a split country.