Imigrunts...

[NCclimber 0]

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>I never said anything about "all" illegals!

"This huge influx of predominantly hispanic illegals has helped create numerous areas in this country where people speak no english . . . "

In those areas, it is simply not true that people do not speak english at all.

So, you're saying all illegals in this country speak english? I don't think so!

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Saying that the influx of hispanic immigrants is damaging the US will seem as silly as saying that the influx of irish damaged the US during the potato famine.

I can't speak for the legal immigrants, but the annual cost of ILLEGAL immigrants is damaging to the tune of $10 Billion per year.

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Fortunately, we're not passing laws against them yet.

Actually, there are a number of laws against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS that are not being enforced.

I think it was John Adams who said:
"We are a nation of laws"

[billvon 2,400]

>So, you're saying all illegals in this country speak english? I don't think so!

Come now, it's friday. Semantics games are much better started on mondays, don't you think?

>I can't speak for the legal immigrants, but the annual cost of
>ILLEGAL immigrants is damaging to the tune of $10 Billion per year.

OK. I haven't seen any such number, but I will assume you are correct.

They also contribute $7 billion into Social Security each year. (That number was from 2003.) We would lose at least $5 billion in our agricultural industry if we lost their cheap labor. So even with that $10 billion we come out ahead with the people themselves being here. Now we just have to fix the problem of them being illegal.

>Actually, there are a number of laws against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
>that are not being enforced.

I agree. We need both better laws and better enforcement. We should work so that the labor we need to keep our farms and industries running is available without requiring anyone to break the law to do it.

[NCclimber 0]

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>So, you're saying all illegals in this country speak english? I don't think so!

Come now, it's friday. Semantics games are much better started on mondays, don't you think?

Yes. Try to do better next time.

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>I can't speak for the legal immigrants, but the annual cost of
>ILLEGAL immigrants is damaging to the tune of $10 Billion per year.

OK. I haven't seen any such number, but I will assume you are correct.

They also contribute $7 billion into Social Security each year. (That number was from 2003.) We would lose at least $5 billion in our agricultural industry if we lost their cheap labor. So even with that $10 billion we come out ahead with the people themselves being here.

That $10 billion figure is the net cost.

[billvon 2,400]

>That $10 billion figure is the net cost.

I'd have to see the math to believe that. Unless you are counting overall total costs to protect them, maintain their roads, run health care centers etc and comparing them to tax receipts - in which case I believe you. But if you go by those standards, the NON illegal immigrants in this country are costing us $274 billion. (deficit divided by number of legal residents.) So we better start there first, if saving money is your overriding goal.

[nathaniel 0]

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Yes, an if 3 Advil is good for pain, then 30 advil must be better. Take Advil in legions.

Advil is a medicine. Physiology tells us that overdosing is bad.

Immigration is economics ( in part ), and economics tells us we've benefitted greatly from levels much higher than today.

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it's a real mistake to not take into account the context of today when listing the benefits of past growth....

You talk about the context of today as though it would be a hindrance to economic growth due to immigration, without explaining what the context is or how it would be a problem. In fact, the economics we have today shows the opposite.

That lame argument has been repeated for every successive wave of immigrants since the early 19th C, with varying degrees the same implied basis (racism) and no proper justification. It's been wrong every time, and it is wrong this time.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[rehmwa 2]

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That lame argument has been repeated for every successive wave of immigrants since the early 19th C, with varying degrees the same implied basis (racism) and no proper justification. It's been wrong every time, and it is wrong this time.

ahh, now pulling the name calling card of racism, I'll have to run for the corner in shame and hide

nicely done. class act. obviously the "open the floodgates damn the existing laws" theory is the only PC solution


Edit: I don't see BV's concept as being racist at all - everybody has to be cleared through a health and criminal check, he proposed no special criteria based on race. The discussion isn't about race at all, it's about legality of entry and the benefits accrued vs an uncontrolled set of borders. You really lost your credibility in the debate by playing such a toady card.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[NCclimber 0]

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

[Amazon 7]

Perhaps its time for ALL you FRIGGIN Immigrants to GO HOME.

America would be a very nice place again without all the friggin Europeans.. Asians...Africans..South Americans( at least non-native)...Austrailians( had to add them since they are a continent too)

We will let any Antarcticans stay.

[billvon 2,400]

OK. So assuming there are 12 million illegal immigrants out of 300 million americans, the average deficit for an illegal alien is $833. Assuming this year's deficit ($250 billion) for the rest (288 million) the average deficit for a resident is $868.

I don't really see that huge a difference. If anything, residents are more of a problem than illegal aliens are.

[nathaniel 0]

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ahh, now pulling the name calling card of racism, I'll have to run for the corner in shame and hide

How else would you describe how Germans, Swedes, Italians, Irish, Chinese, and now Hispanics all experienced periods of discrimination as they arrived at our borders in large numbers? Offer a better word if you don't like the word racism. Xenophobia works, I guess.

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nicely done. class act. obviously the "open the floodgates damn the existing laws" theory is the only PC solution

PC has nothing to do with it. Nation building has everything to do with it. We've been running our country lean for the past 80 years and now it's starting to show. Even Europe is competitive with us now.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[NCclimber 0]

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OK. So assuming there are 12 million illegal immigrants out of 300 million americans, the average deficit for an illegal alien is $833. Assuming this year's deficit ($250 billion) for the rest (288 million) the average deficit for a resident is $868.

I don't really see that huge a difference. If anything, residents are more of a problem than illegal aliens are.

1) The study was based on a population of 8.7 million, so your per capita cost is $1877.

2) "If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion"

Which would result in a per capita cost of $5087, which is nearly 6 times the amount you estimated for citizens.

[billvon 2,400]

>1) The study was based on a population of 8.7 million, so your
>per capita cost is $1877.

10 billion divided by 8.7 million is $1149 per.

>"If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and
> use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the
> same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would
> increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net
> cost of $29 billion"

I claim that their increases in salary would immediately bump them into a higher tax bracket, thus greatly increasing their tax contribution. They would, in other words, be like any other legal immigrant (which is what most of us were at some point.)

[NCclimber 0]

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>1) The study was based on a population of 8.7 million, so your
>per capita cost is $1877.

10 billion divided by 8.7 million is $1149 per.

OOPS

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>"If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and
> use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the
> same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would
> increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net
> cost of $29 billion"

I claim that their increases in salary would immediately bump them into a higher tax bracket, thus greatly increasing their tax contribution. They would, in other words, be like any other legal immigrant (which is what most of us were at some point.)

The quote I posted said:
"If illegal aliens were given amnesty and began to pay taxes and use services like households headed by legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual net fiscal deficit would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total net cost of $29 billion"

That still comes out to $3300 per capita, including paying taxes.

[Frenchy68 0]

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I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say the average illegal is an uneducated, hispanic male, who doesn't speak English above a rudimentary level

I'd say it's pretty fair to apply this statement to certain brackets of American Society. Replace the word "illegal" with bloke, and "hispanic" with Caucasian. Lack of education is not the provilege of immigrants.
On a tangent, is English the official language of the US?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[masterrig 1]

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I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say the average illegal is an uneducated, hispanic male, who doesn't speak English above a rudimentary level

I'd say it's pretty fair to apply this statement to certain brackets of American Society. Replace the word "illegal" with bloke, and "hispanic" with Caucasian. Lack of education is not the provilege of immigrants.
On a tangent, is English the official language of the US?

__________________________________

Now, that you mention it... we don't have an official language.


Chuck

[Enrique 0]

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I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say the average illegal is an uneducated, hispanic male, who doesn't speak English above a rudimentary level.

Such a level of education and ability to use the English language is not exclusive of illegal aliens. In any case, why is that so important? As long as they are working their asses off for a few dollars to feed their families and not causing any trouble, why does it even matter if they are fluent in English or not?

[mnealtx 0]

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Saying that the influx of hispanic immigrants is damaging the US will seem as silly as saying that the influx of irish damaged the US during the potato famine.

Fortunately, we're not passing laws against them yet. We may actually have learned the lessons of history this time.

La Raza

Atzlan

Mecha

Reconquista


We're learning, all right...but I don't think it's the same lesson you're envisioning...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,623]

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I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say the average illegal is an uneducated, hispanic male, who doesn't speak English above a rudimentary level.

Such a level of education and ability to use the English language is not exclusive of illegal aliens. In any case, why is that so important? As long as they are working their asses off for a few dollars to feed their families and not causing any trouble, why does it even matter if they are fluent in English or not?

The translation of "it's a pretty safe bet" is "I have absolutely no data".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Quote

Saying that the influx of hispanic immigrants is damaging the US will seem as silly as saying that the influx of irish damaged the US during the potato famine.

Fortunately, we're not passing laws against them yet. We may actually have learned the lessons of history this time.

La Raza

Atzlan

Mecha

Reconquista


We're learning, all right...but I don't think it's the same lesson you're envisioning...

Uh-huh. Once again painting Hispanics with a broad brush.

'Smatter? Too brown? Deal with it.

[mnealtx 0]

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Quote

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Saying that the influx of hispanic immigrants is damaging the US will seem as silly as saying that the influx of irish damaged the US during the potato famine.

Fortunately, we're not passing laws against them yet. We may actually have learned the lessons of history this time.

La Raza

Atzlan

Mecha

Reconquista


We're learning, all right...but I don't think it's the same lesson you're envisioning...

Uh-huh. Once again painting Hispanics with a broad brush.

'Smatter? Too brown? Deal with it.

Painting with a broad brush...where have I seen that before? Maybe from a post to all the "Right Wingers" in a certain Senatorial thread?

Lemme give ya a hint - just because the Dems think that Hispanics and Blacks *NEED* their patronage to succeed, doesn't make it so - that's the TRUE racism in the country today.

Texas has been my home for 30+ years. I've got more Hispanic friends than Caucasian... so you can take that "Too brown?" comment and fold it 'til it's all sharp corners - I'm sure you can figure out what to do with it from there.

I've also seen the influx of illegal aliens from Mexico - some go straight to work. Unfortunately, many don't, and use forged documentation to get welfare/food stamps/etc.

I don't have a problem with anyone wanting to come to America, as long as they're doing it legally, and coming to work or educate themselves and become part of the 'melting pot'. If they're coming to get some of that 'free gub'mint money' or to try to advocate some sort of "homeland"... then they can stay home.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

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so you can take that "Too brown?" comment and fold it 'til it's all sharp corners - I'm sure you can figure out what to do with it from there.

Yup.. that woulda got me banned.

[mnealtx 0]

It's all that red.. makes people think you're


ETA: YES, everyone...that was a JOKE...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

But I enjoy being The Jeanne

[mnealtx 0]

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[masterrig 1]

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I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say the average illegal is an uneducated, hispanic male, who doesn't speak English above a rudimentary level.

Such a level of education and ability to use the English language is not exclusive of illegal aliens. In any case, why is that so important? As long as they are working their asses off for a few dollars to feed their families and not causing any trouble, why does it even matter if they are fluent in English or not?

_______________________________

Years ago, I had the opportunity to meet an 'illegal' from Mexico City. He was working as a cabinet maker. A trade, he had 'dabbled in' in earlier years. His true occupation was that of a university professor. He said, he could make more money for his family as a cabinet maker here, rather than a professor in Mexico City. I've met many 'illegals' who spoke better English than a lot of Americans. They had only been in this country a very, very short time. I'm not buying all the generalizations.


Chuck