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skydemon2

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Are you representative of the average illegal?


It depends what your definition is. I know of many illegals I reckon would not fit your definition.
I think people would be surprised what the number of illegals coming from Western Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc... is.



They don't count.



Why not? According to who(m)?

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Are you representative of the average illegal?


It depends what your definition is. I know of many illegals I reckon would not fit your definition.
I think people would be surprised what the number of illegals coming from Western Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc... is.



They don't count.



Which has been my point exaclty, though people here have either been missing it or evading it.

> Shropshire: wrong colour?

Yep.

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Are you representative of the average illegal?


It depends what your definition is. I know of many illegals I reckon would not fit your definition.
I think people would be surprised what the number of illegals coming from Western Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc... is.



It sounds like you're basically talking about white people. They make up something like 6% of the total.

More than four out of five (81%) illegal aliens are hispanic. Fifty-seven percent of all illegals are Mexican.

I'd say it's a pretty safe bet to say the average illegal is an uneducated, hispanic male, who doesn't speak English above a rudimentary level.


_____________________________________

Like Carlos Mencia said; "All the Mexicans are HERE! All those people lined-up waiting to cross the border are from Central America!" "Behind them are folks from South America... we're runnin' out of roomere, people!":D


Chuck

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>How about this:

We build several Ellis-Island-like facilities along the border. They have biometric scanners and basic medical facilities. Everyone who enters without a passport gets a basic medical check and a biometric scan. (fingerprint, retina.) Takes all of an hour or two. Goal is under eight hours no matter what - and it's free..........

When they leave, they can go to a US office in Tijuana (or wherever) and get their tax money back.



why the hell would they get the tax money back? (I like the rest, kind of a guest worker program, isn't it)

When they leave, they can file a return and pay what they owe or get the refund portion returned if they overpaid. And the US keeps the correct amount of taxes based on them living here plus a bit more as they weren't citizens (to cover that "Free" entry processing and physical and biometric scan, etc - they can pay when they leave - in essence the US loaned them the money for the entry so they could come and work).

I think the record of their productivity and behavior during the visit(s) would be a great way to also determine priority towards being awarded citizenship too.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Are you representative of the average illegal?


It depends what your definition is. I know of many illegals I reckon would not fit your definition.
I think people would be surprised what the number of illegals coming from Western Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ, etc... is.



I've met far more European and Canadian undocumented immigrants than I've met hispanic undocumented immigrants.

I know that's just anecdotal, not statistical evidence. It's my real world experience, nonetheless.

I think there is a tendency in America to assume Hispanics are undocumented, while Europeans are here legally. However, we can't tell anything about a persons immigration status by looking at that person, or listening to what language that person speaks.

The very nature of undocumented immigrants means that we don't have a lot of accurate data available.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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I think there is a tendency in America to assume Hispanics are undocumented, while Europeans are here legally.



There's this great scene from a Cheech and Chong movie where Cheech's character, a Chicano who was born and spent his whole life in East L.A., is swept up in an Immigration police raid and held as a presumed illegal immigrant, to be "deported" to Mexico. Even though he protests that he doesn't even know how to speak Spanish ("Yeah, sure you don't, Hombre"), he's unable to convince them he's an American.

A great case of art imitating life.

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> I was an "illegal" for 7 years. I reckon during these 7 years, I may
>have contributed to society as productively as some "legal" immigrants
>have, and I'd venture at times more than some plain old corn fed nationals.

Indeed. I learned a lot of what I know about tunnel flying from an illegal.

I've met illegal aliens who were incredibly hard workers. They'd work all day on a neighbor's yard, and when finished, said "pay me whatever you think it's worth." I have a friend of mine, a legal immigrant from mexico, who tells me about his deadbeat friends who do nothing but hang out, go to a community college sporadically and drink beer. Many are illegal aliens. I know illegal aliens who are mothers, rowdy kids, skydivers, packers and EMT's.

In other words, they're like anyone else. They're just breaking the law in the process.

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>This huge influx of predominantly hispanic illegals has helped create
>numerous areas in this country where people speak no english . . .

Untrue. Even in San Diego there are no neighborhoods where no one speaks english. There may only be one person in a family who speaks it, or who speaks it poorly, but that's OK.

>are completely ignorant of American culture . . .

I doubt that very much. You can't live here without having culture force-fed to you. However, if you said "had no interest in following american culture" I'd agree - and that's fine. Heck, we need more people like that and fewer McDonald's customers!

>and have no interest in assimilating.

That's fine. I have little interest in assimilating into Perris when I'm there. I'm perfectly happy staying in my insular little drop zone and doing my own thing, even if the Perris locals don't get it, or don't like the noise our airplanes make. (OTOH if they want to come out to the DZ, that's also fine. They're more than welcome.)

There's an area in Boston that's a "little china." We used to go there for really cheap chinese food. Many people there didn't speak english, had no concept of american culture (which may be why their food was so good) and had no interest in turning their restaurants into McDonald's. Overall it made the city a better place to live. If you didn't want to go to a restaurant where the menus are in chinese, you could go down to Central Square and find the chinese places were the menus were in english.

The problem with illegal immigrants is not that they speak spanish, or chinese. It's not that they're mexican or indian or chinese or canadian. It's not that they have their own culture, or that they don't like McDonald's, or they don't think Britney Spears is good looking. It's not that some are lazy and some are hard workers. It's not that they like burritos or calamari or spring rolls. It's that they are here illegally. THAT'S the problem we have to work on.

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>why the hell would they get the tax money back?

Because they were put in an artificially high tax bracket to give them an incentive to go back to their home country when they are done.



???My assumption was you were stating they get ALL their tax money back.....Is that an incorrect read. They should pay more than the rest though, they need to support your Ellis Island, plus pay for the resources they use while in country.


All I see is that you are proposing they come here, use the resources and work. But pay no taxes. While citizens are here, use the resources and work. But (at least half anyway) pay taxes.

I don't see any definition of fairness.

If the tax bracket is artificially high, then let them file a claim and get the difference in what the paid in vs. what they should have paid.

Everybody (no exception) should pay some amount of tax, it allows us not to fall into the economic trap destined for democracies.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>My assumption was you were stating they get ALL their tax money
>back.....

Well, they get back whatever they're "owed" - which in most cases will be all of it (except for things like SS, which are deducted even today.) We're talking migrant labor here, not engineers; we already have a system for them.

>They should pay more than the rest though, they need to support
>your Ellis Island, plus pay for the resources they use while in country.

They pay just like everyone else does.

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>This huge influx of predominantly hispanic illegals has helped create
>numerous areas in this country where people speak no english . . .

Untrue. Even in San Diego there are no neighborhoods where no one speaks english. There may only be one person in a family who speaks it, or who speaks it poorly, but that's OK.


Anyone else see the irony here?

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>are completely ignorant of American culture . . .

I doubt that very much.


Hypothetically speaking. :P

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>and have no interest in assimilating.

That's fine. I have little interest in assimilating into Perris when I'm there. I'm perfectly happy staying in my insular little drop zone and doing my own thing, even if the Perris locals don't get it, or don't like the noise our airplanes make. (OTOH if they want to come out to the DZ, that's also fine. They're more than welcome.)


Of course, you're talking about brief visits... not moving there!!!

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Many people there didn't speak english, had no concept of american culture (which may be why their food was so good)


Kind of supports my first two points, that you refuted... don't you think?;)

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Overall it made the city a better place to live. If you didn't want to go to a restaurant where the menus are in chinese, you could go down to Central Square and find the chinese places were the menus were in english.


In small doses, I agree completely... but the example you made is far different from what is becoming the norm in areas like east LA.

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The problem with illegal immigrants is not that they speak spanish, or chinese. It's not that they're mexican or indian or chinese or canadian. It's not that they have their own culture, or that they don't like McDonald's, or they don't think Britney Spears is good looking. It's not that some are lazy and some are hard workers. It's not that they like burritos or calamari or spring rolls. It's that they are here illegally. THAT'S the problem we have to work on.


I think there are a fair number of Americans who would disagree with you on this.

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Because they were put in an artificially high tax bracket to give them an incentive to go back to their home country when they are done.



Wait, why do we want them to go home? I want them to stay, to import their lineage to the US so our economy can grow for posterity. Most of the economic advantage comes from the lineage.

If you allow just the first generation to come, and then to go home, you'll need to look at restricting their children and parents from joining them, because they'd drive the equation into the red if everybody just packed up and left after the first generation. And if the first immigrants in a family couldn't bring their parents and kids, they'd be much less likely to immigrate at all.

What is the point of immigration, anyway?
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

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>Of course, you're talking about brief visits... not moving there!!!

I got a room up there this year specifically to be able to train four days a week. And there are a great many people who DO live there, and who spend their time at the DZ, not in downtown Perris. Indeed, the only reason many of them ever venture there is to buy stuff.

>Kind of supports my first two points, that you refuted... don't you think?

"Many" does not equal "all."

>I think there are a fair number of Americans who would disagree with you on this.

There always are. The Anti-Coolie act. The Jim Crow laws. Japanese internment. "Irish need not apply." People have a natural tendency to want to blame a specific group of people for any problems, actual or perceived.

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>Wait, why do we want them to go home? I want them to stay, to
> import their lineage to the US so our economy can grow for
> posterity. Most of the economic advantage comes from the lineage.

I think they should stay too! That's the naturalization issue. Once they've worked here for a year (with no arrests etc) they should get first priority when it comes to naturalization.

>What is the point of immigration, anyway?

Whatever the person wants the point to be. For many, it is to come to the US to work and make money. That's what the day-laborer/migrant worker plans are for. For others, it's to make a new life in the US. For them, naturalization is a better solution.

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>My assumption was you were stating they get ALL their tax money
>back.....

Well, they get back whatever they're "owed" - which in most cases will be all of it



Why do you think they should be exempt from paying any income tax?



I agree with Billvon now that he clarified - though I think some fees should be assessed for the entry processing directly to the guest worker, not the citizenry - the hiring companies can enact policies to cover that for the workers if they really do bring a benefit....... And I don't like the culture behind using the word "owed", maybe it's semantics, but I'd say get back what they "overpaid"

And some of these guest workers will be higher income types (most likely could be laborers as he says) and these will pay the higher rates that we retain.

Your issue is about us having a "progressive rate" tax structure rather than a "progressive" tax structure as reflected by a flat tax rate for all........ A lot of citizens also pay no taxes at all due to our tax structure. BV just assumes most of the guest workers would fall in this (practically 0%) tax bracket.....

That's a whole different thing.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>Once they've worked here for a year (with no arrests etc) they should get first priority when it comes to naturalization.



They should get priority also based on how they conducted themselves while here for that year (clean record, employed the entire time, maybe paid off the entry fee for processing early). In essence, showed themselves as productive and with a sense of ownership in the country.

I'm sure this is self evident, but, hey, call me the master of the obvious.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>What is the point of immigration, anyway?

Whatever the person wants the point to be. For many, it is to come to the US to work and make money. That's what the day-laborer/migrant worker plans are for. For others, it's to make a new life in the US. For them, naturalization is a better solution.



I think the point of immigration, from a societal standpoint, is cost-benefit. Immigrants do our nation and our society more (much more) benefit than they do us harm. Bring them in legions--despite the friction that ensues it's an investment in the future, one whose fabulous past performance is an indication of future success.

Temporary workers are migrants to me, not immigrants. I infer from the term immigrant that the persons in question would settle here. Naturalization likely being a part of the process, but not necessarily.

If they don't bring their families, migrants are also pretty well beneficial to our society, though not as much as immigrants that bring their whole families and stick around, from a present-value standpoint.
My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

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Yes, an if 3 Advil is good for pain, then 30 advil must be better. Take Advil in legions.

BVs structure is an interesting idea, it allows us to benefit from "migrants" and to identify good candidates for citizenship.

Citizens are only good when they identify as US citizens and have an ownership stake in the country. That's a big difference between illegal and legal growth here.

Edit: it's a real mistake to not take into account the context of today when listing the benefits of past growth....

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>Why do you think they should be exempt from paying any income tax?

Because that's how our tax code is written. Below a certain income you don't pay income tax.



Not only that, but non-residents don't get allowances like residents. Having spent a year as a (legal) non-resident back in the '70's, I discovered a lot about the tax code. On the whole I think non-residents pay their fair share, maybe more, it's just computed even more wierdly than normal. My guess is that a worker with poor reading skills who can't afford a tax consultant will end up paying way too much.
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[reply>Kind of supports my first two points, that you refuted... don't you think?

"Many" does not equal "all."


What are you talking about? I never said anything about "all" illegals!

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>I think there are a fair number of Americans who would disagree with you on this.

There always are. The Anti-Coolie act. The Jim Crow laws. Japanese internment. "Irish need not apply." People have a natural tendency to want to blame a specific group of people for any problems, actual or perceived.



First you claim I said no one spoke English, which was untrue. Now you're your using examples of extremism to refute my mainstream points.

You seem to use extremes to distract from the main picture. Is this what they mean by red herrings?

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>I never said anything about "all" illegals!

"This huge influx of predominantly hispanic illegals has helped create numerous areas in this country where people speak no english . . . "

In those areas, it is simply not true that people do not speak english at all.

>Now you're your using examples of extremism to refute my
>mainstream points.

In the 1860's, the anti-coolie act represented the mainstream position of californians where it was passed. During WWII, Japanese internment represented the mainstream position of the country. In the 1800's, the Jim Crow laws represented mainstream thinking.

Someday today's anti-hispanic-immigrant sentiment will be considered extremism. Saying that the influx of hispanic immigrants is damaging the US will seem as silly as saying that the influx of irish damaged the US during the potato famine.

Fortunately, we're not passing laws against them yet. We may actually have learned the lessons of history this time.

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