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DougH

Coffin Nail - the ultimate in main closing pin technology.

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RMURRAY

being an engineer,,,,what i am saying is lets see the test results. i could be wrong but i assume it has at least a couple thousand jumps on a bunch of rigs prior to being put on the market.



I agree that one should have test results to review. But putting something on the market rarely requires this, and a good marketing program can usually lead people to the sales counter without asking for facts.

From what little I've seen here, there was an idea to solve a problem a new way. A few prototypes built and tested a few times and then marketed. I'm guessing some with be bought. Most will have to be installed by the rig owner as I hope that few riggers will install them without good reason/data proving their worth. PCIT will result and the owner will usually live through it and realise that this was dumb and quietly remove them.

This is a common practice in the IT field (and others) of letting the early adopters be the Beta testers. In most fields the early adopters are not increasing their risk of death by listening to the hype and getting the next new thing.

I don't want to squash people's interest in trying new things. But learning about what we have, what we had, why certain things were kept and others abandoned, and most imporantly what level of testing is needed to find the flaws in a design is crutial.

I had a great improvement idea for a common flag deployment system. Worked great for 12 jumps. Was perminently retired at 2000' on jump 13 when the flaw in the design was discovered.

With that said, we should push ANY developer that wants to see us new stuff... where are your test results?

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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RMURRAY

i could be wrong but i assume it has at least a couple thousand jumps on a bunch of rigs prior to being put on the market.



Your assumption would be wrong, unfortunately. It was not tested in any sense. A prototype of was sloppily machined, it was sloppily tied on to an existing bridle with a curved pin, and was jumped a handful of times.

In my mind testing requires set criteria, data points that you are evaluating, and an objective review of the results. They require repetition and enough quantity to allow statistical patterns to arise.

If you count those jumps as test jumps then I would assume would number no more than 100-150 life to date, and no more that 50 before it was held out for sale.

The designer has shown other patterns of inconsistent data, like coming back from an injury and time away from the sport with the enough jumps to get a D license. So I personally wouldn't take any test data you could get your hands on with a grain of salt, and a heavy dose of professional skepticism.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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First I thought this was some enhanced pull out straight pin. But I bridald at the spelling of bridle so I left it at that.

Let's take it to the bonfire.:)
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Thanks Doug. Time for my reminder about how the skydiving industry was designed. It wasn't. O'h some products get a once over to meet material certifications and metal quality, but the vast majority of skydiving stuff evolved over the years. Some things worked, some things worked and killed people, and some things worked and killed less people. This thing about a pin with a indentation has actually be tried in the past. Some of you will want proof of this, my retort is find the information yourself, no one listening to me anyways when I post attachments providing much needed evidence and common sense. 2 points about change in skydiving gear. Firstly much of skydiving gear is a tradeoff , take the RSL for example, most agree that a RSL solves more issues than it causes, notice the fine print there. 2ndly gear is frequently sold to appeal to a Bruce Jenner kind of mentality. (think of any pro sports personality and their face on a box of cereal.) Meaning that younger jumpers want to buy what the pros have and use, "It must be better if ""they"" are using it," right? So here's an issue that at the moment the manufacturer is or has neglected to address in their marketing materials: That being "main pin retraction force." The PIA / FAA has a procedure for your reserve pin, how to adjust your loop for the mandated force required in lbs.. The USPA and the PIA have set the force required to withdraw your main pin, (look it up if you must.) BUT THIS FORCE IS HIGHLEY VARIABLE , varying temperature and humidity make stuffing a too large main into a too small container a challenge sometimes. Doe's anyone know what stuffing a too large main into a too small container does to the force required to withdraw the pin????? If your inattentive????? It puts this force beyond the ability for gravity and your pilot chute to withdraw the pin. Ever see a packer or any individual use their feet to close a rig??? Sure you have, we all have. Now if your using a new design and don't know what your doing? Well this can't happen can it? This is my point not only do we have too many people not taking into consideration the audience they are speaking too, we have some one who thinks they can design equipment with out taking into consideration all of the potential users of same equipment. Much of our equipment, the evolution therofffe has cost lives. So the manufacturers do in fact design in compromises and safeguards into design to take into account the varying abilities and stupidity of your average user who could care less about gear. Did this manufacturer, (Ya, I know, can we call them that?) take this into consideration? I want the questioned answered what does this device do to the main pin extraction force when some one uses both feet to close a rig???? AND on a side note we used to have fully protected pins, both reserve and mains, the classic 3 pin 3 cones had a flap protecting those pins that would protect those pins with a vengeance and ya know what, those pins got bent even under flaps of steel. Do you also know soft flaps are there for a reason. Any container manufacturer can manufacture closing pin flaps made from a Bank Vault , but that actually didn't work out either, soft flaps are a compromise, so I'm leaving ya with something that's been beat to death in the past that being soft main flaps solve more issues than they create. Till then protect your gear and move carefully, now there's sumthin we all know actually works each and every time!!!! ;)
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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ChrisD2.0

Thanks Doug. Time for my reminder about how the skydiving industry was designed. It wasn't. O'h some products get a once over to meet material certifications and metal quality, but the vast majority of skydiving stuff evolved over the years. Some things worked, some things worked and killed people, and some things worked and killed less people. This thing about a pin with a indentation has actually be tried in the past. Some of you will want proof of this, my retort is find the information yourself, no one listening to me anyways when I post attachments providing much needed evidence and common sense. 2 points about change in skydiving gear. Firstly much of skydiving gear is a tradeoff , take the RSL for example, most agree that a RSL solves more issues than it causes, notice the fine print there. 2ndly gear is frequently sold to appeal to a Bruce Jenner kind of mentality. (think of any pro sports personality and their face on a box of cereal.) Meaning that younger jumpers want to buy what the pros have and use, "It must be better if ""they"" are using it," right? So here's an issue that at the moment the manufacturer is or has neglected to address in their marketing materials: That being "main pin retraction force." The PIA / FAA has a procedure for your reserve pin, how to adjust your loop for the mandated force required in lbs.. The USPA and the PIA have set the force required to withdraw your main pin, (look it up if you must.) BUT THIS FORCE IS HIGHLEY VARIABLE , varying temperature and humidity make stuffing a too large main into a too small container a challenge sometimes. Doe's anyone know what stuffing a too large main into a too small container does to the force required to withdraw the pin????? If your inattentive????? It puts this force beyond the ability for gravity and your pilot chute to withdraw the pin. Ever see a packer or any individual use their feet to close a rig??? Sure you have, we all have. Now if your using a new design and don't know what your doing? Well this can't happen can it? This is my point not only do we have too many people not taking into consideration the audience they are speaking too, we have some one who thinks they can design equipment with out taking into consideration all of the potential users of same equipment. Much of our equipment, the evolution therofffe has cost lives. So the manufacturers do in fact design in compromises and safeguards into design to take into account the varying abilities and stupidity of your average user who could care less about gear. Did this manufacturer, (Ya, I know, can we call them that?) take this into consideration? I want the questioned answered what does this device do to the main pin extraction force when some one uses both feet to close a rig???? AND on a side note we used to have fully protected pins, both reserve and mains, the classic 3 pin 3 cones had a flap protecting those pins that would protect those pins with a vengeance and ya know what, those pins got bent even under flaps of steel. Do you also know soft flaps are there for a reason. Any container manufacturer can manufacture closing pin flaps made from a Bank Vault , but that actually didn't work out either, soft flaps are a compromise, so I'm leaving ya with something that's been beat to death in the past that being soft main flaps solve more issues than they create. Till then protect your gear and move carefully, now there's sumthin we all know actually works each and every time!!!! ;)



Wow mate, wall of text = hard to read. Just a tip, but spacing out your text with paragraphs etc make your posts easier to follow in future, which in turn makes it easier to communicate your points and emphasize what you need.

~Your Friendly Neighborhood Grammarman~
_____
SPLAT

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Thanks for the critique JP, I thought it gave the post a bit of dramatic flair, IMO. I will endeavor to do better as time goes on.


https://nitrofly.biz/


Still out there, still the same "talking" points.

Of course I think that individual did change the marketing, it is for sale now to only "HYPE eR ELITE" jumpers now. So if your hyperelite, and a part time gear designer feel free.

My points still stand. Crap like this is just downright dangerous. Promoting changes to gear, when we have increasing newbies that don't have a clue about gear is irresponsible.

The alleged manufacturer of this would have been better off just promoting this kind of idea to just the target audience. He could have purchased the attendance records both from the USPA and various DZ's for just freeflyers as an example.

I continue to harp on this because I hear each and every day from students, A lic, B lic, and even more than a few C and D license holders gear type questions that so many of us know by rote and experience. Most newbies, and their are many, don't have a clue as to their gear,...AND THIS IS INCREASING.

Do we have a responsibility to educate jumpers that don't have a clue about gear, in a very, very, very, gear dependent activity?

If the USPA had any Balls, common sense, or took their safety role responsibly,....in a gear dependent sport, it would be a BSR to be required to name parts of your equipment. Cause from where I stand fully 50% of new jumpers don't have a clue. And what's wooorse they don't seem to care!!!!
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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I would normally be amused that this post came back from the dead, if not for the fact that it is still available for sale.

The bigger concern for me is how many jumpers, especially new jumpers, are being misinformed through word of mouth directly from the source about this raaaaaaad extreeeeeme innovation.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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DougH

I would normally be amused that this post came back from the dead, if not for the fact that it is still available for sale.

The bigger concern for me is how many jumpers, especially new jumpers, are being misinformed through word of mouth directly from the source about this raaaaaaad extreeeeeme innovation.



thanks Doug, my thoughts exactly,.... which is why the price of safety is vigilance,...
Brett Bickford Did Not Commit Suicide.

He is the victim of ignorance and faulty gear. AND as in the movie: "12 Angry Men," of an ignorant and callous jury.

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There is nothing wrong with innovation. There was in fact some work done to develop a better curved pin to address actual problems. There is a guy in Europe making them now if you're interested. By the way that work resulted in some thing that looks nothing like this abortion. The exact opposite in fact.

So for me the real question is how well does this thing work. If he's been selling them all this time, that is if people are actually using them, we should have some numbers by now. How many reserve rides have there been? I know what I would expect the answer to be, but I've been known to be wrong...it happened once, a long time ago, I don't like to talk about it. So who is this guy? Any body know him? Could you sneek a peak at his packing data card?

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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