There IS a problem with global warming... it stopped in 1998

[brenthutch 384]

On 12/17/2019 at 7:55 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Some of us understand the concept that if we continue down the path we're heading down, without any real changes to our behaviors, that humanity (in general) is fucked. 

Down the path of longer lifespans, less poverty, fewer deaths from natural disasters, greater technology, less war?  Because that is the path we are on.

[turtlespeed 212]

8 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Down the path of longer lifespans, less poverty, fewer deaths from natural disasters, greater technology, less war?  Because that is the path we are on.

Fewer deaths from Natural Disasters?  I don't see where you are getting that.

Technology?  Well, that is human nature and would happen, and will happen until our demise as a specie.

Less War? Has really nothing to do with climate, but this is also possibly the calm before the storm.

Humanity is really good at adapting and overcoming obstacles.  This is an obstacle and we will over come it.  We need to recognize its existence though, and quit over exaggerating for dramatic effect.

[brenthutch 384]

https://fee.org/media/34464/lomborg-global-deaths-from-climate-and-non-climate-catastrophes-1920-2018-figure-3a-_900w.png?width=600&height=557.0175438596491

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by brenthutch

[gowlerk 1,915]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

Humanity is really good at adapting and overcoming obstacles.  This is an obstacle and we will over come it.  We need to recognize its existence though, and quit over exaggerating for dramatic effect.

Exactly. The overreacting is a direct result of the frustration over the Koch brothers paid for effort to deny that there is even a problem. That has turned it into a more political issue than it should be. Warming is happening, it is being driven largely by CO2. It is in our best interest that we reduce emissions. We should not panic. Warming is here and we will deal with it. It will be easier to deal with if we make an effort ti limit it. That's all.

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

18 hours ago, wmw999 said:

One can always  find something to support one’s position. The bravery comes with looking for something to disprove it and acknowledging it. 

Wendy P. 

One can always find something to support one's position. 

However, when the ratio of 'proves to disproves' is as large as it is with this, it's not bravery or cowardice.
It's simply intellectual dishonesty.

[brenthutch 384]

Longer lifespan, lower poverty, greater standard of living, fewer climate related deaths, accelerating technological advances ...

Those are just the facts.  If you want to buy into some doomsday narrative you will have to get some “alternative facts”

Edited December 21, 2019 by brenthutch

[JoeWeber 2,316]

On 12/17/2019 at 8:55 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Some of us understand the concept that if we continue down the path we're heading down, without any real changes to our behaviors, that humanity (in general) is fucked. 

Not in my lifetime, maybe not for hundreds of years, but someday. 

That's the problem. If we warmista's are flexible with our time frames, and we are, then we can choose any future time to validate our point and our science. In fairness, you wrote: "Not in my lifetime, maybe not for hundreds of years, but someday."  Not very Greta of you, but true. 

 

Yes, feedback loops may doom us to a Venusian future but it's not the future today. And just like Christmas, maybe it is a bunch of bullshit but if you get the bike you want, farce or not, you now have a bike.

I'm not concerned with more CO2 in the air, I'm concerned that we have no fucking idea how to control an out of control process.

Part of what frustrates me is that we treat the thing like it's local and all we need to do is take more CO2 to the curb for recycling. That's nuts. There will not be a Gluten Free non-GMO solution to the problem. We need to engineer our way out of this mess and the next messes, too.

Maybe we aren't quite ready to build a Dyson Sphere but ought to be going gangbusters working on the Dyson CO2 Vacuum.

And we need to do it before the most traumatic thing to ever happen on our planet happens: someone needs to concede Brent was right.

 

 

 

 

 

[billvon 2,406]

12 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Humanity is really good at adapting and overcoming obstacles.  This is an obstacle and we will over come it.  We need to recognize its existence though, and quit over exaggerating for dramatic effect.

Agreed - as long as we can stop the factions that are doing everything they can to sabotage the efforts to overcome it.

[brenthutch 384]

20 minutes ago, billvon said:

Agreed - as long as we can stop the factions that are doing everything they can to sabotage the efforts to overcome it.

Overcome what?  Progress?

Edited December 22, 2019 by brenthutch

[billvon 2,406]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Overcome what?  Progress?

Overcome this obstacle.

[turtlespeed 212]

On 12/21/2019 at 9:53 PM, billvon said:

Overcome this obstacle.

The obstacle is that the over exaggeration has caused dissent.

[DJL 232]

On 12/20/2019 at 3:30 PM, brenthutch said:

Hey, don't say that about NOAA's global temperature chart.

You're the one who began posting that as your proof that nothing is changing which is weird because it's a graph showing how we've experienced the hottest 10 years on record within a remarkably short time.

[billvon 2,406]

14 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

The obstacle is that the over exaggeration has caused dissent.

Nope, that's not an obstacle.  There's plenty of dissent on everything, all the time.  There was dissent on the Montreal Protocol - but we did it anyway, because it was important to do.

The obstacle is climate change deniers who are doing everything they can to stop progress in EV's, smart grids, BESSes, renewable energy, carbon sequestration and even preparations for dealing with climate change.  (A local town just passed an ordinance that prohibits planning for sea level rise.)  Most of these these people have similar motivations - money.  They don't even have to agree with the science.  All they have to do is get out of the way of the people working to ameliorate it.

[BIGUN 1,061]

On 12/21/2019 at 5:34 PM, JoeWeber said:

I'm not concerned with more CO2 in the air, I'm concerned that we have no fucking idea how to control an out of control process.

Morning, Joe. THIS is the most important statement out of 1100+ posts. 

[JoeWeber 2,316]

10 hours ago, billvon said:

Nope, that's not an obstacle.  There's plenty of dissent on everything, all the time.  There was dissent on the Montreal Protocol - but we did it anyway, because it was important to do.

The obstacle is climate change deniers who are doing everything they can to stop progress in EV's, smart grids, BESSes, renewable energy, carbon sequestration and even preparations for dealing with climate change.  (A local town just passed an ordinance that prohibits planning for sea level rise.)  Most of these these people have similar motivations - money.  They don't even have to agree with the science.  All they have to do is get out of the way of the people working to ameliorate it.

If you had a Billion Dollars to divide any three way's between emerging carbon sequestration technologies what would they be and how would you spend the money? And if you believe beating this thing with technology is a fool's errand, please say so.

[billvon 2,406]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

If you had a Billion Dollars to divide any three way's between emerging carbon sequestration technologies what would they be and how would you spend the money? And if you believe beating this thing with technology is a fool's errand, please say so.

Probably reforestation.  It's the best bang for the buck that doesn't involve massive environmental impacts (like ocean seeding.)   But it would be wiser, IMO, to spend that money reducing CO2 emissions, rather than trying to store the CO2 we emit.

You can't "beat it" with technology like it's a rival sports team.  But technology is the one way that we can reduce CO2 without going back to the 1800's.

 

[turtlespeed 212]

9 minutes ago, billvon said:

Probably reforestation.  It's the best bang for the buck that doesn't involve massive environmental impacts (like ocean seeding.)   But it would be wiser, IMO, to spend that money reducing CO2 emissions, rather than trying to store the CO2 we emit.

You can't "beat it" with technology like it's a rival sports team.  But technology is the one way that we can reduce CO2 without going back to the 1800's.

 

How much reforestation would a Bil get us?(see what i did there?)

Vs investment into tech?

It sounds to me - that a 70/30 split might be the way to go.

 

[JoeWeber 2,316]

11 minutes ago, billvon said:

But it would be wiser, IMO, to spend that money reducing CO2 emissions, rather than trying to store the CO2 we emit.

Agreed, but in a world where ignorance is bliss and selfish push back is a virtue I'm hopeful you can come up with a CO2 Discombobulator.

[brenthutch 384]

"The findings, published in the journal Biogeosciences, suggest that forests are growing more vigorously

The increased plant growth in global forests is due to several factors, including higher concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, warmer temperatures and increased availability of nitrogen."

Reforestation via the burning of fossil fuels, a win win.

 

[billvon 2,406]

6 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

"The findings, published in the journal Biogeosciences, suggest that forests are growing more vigorously

The increased plant growth in global forests is due to several factors, including higher concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, warmer temperatures and increased availability of nitrogen."

Reforestation via the burning of fossil fuels, a win win.

 

That's like arguing that since a fever helps you fight disease, you should always be sick if you want to be healthy.

[brenthutch 384]

yeah......it is exactly like that

[JoeWeber 2,316]

16 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

"The findings, published in the journal Biogeosciences, suggest that forests are growing more vigorously

The increased plant growth in global forests is due to several factors, including higher concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, warmer temperatures and increased availability of nitrogen."

Reforestation via the burning of fossil fuels, a win win.

 

Totally!

[billvon 2,406]

26 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

yeah......it is exactly like that

I figured you wouldn't get it.  No worries; have a good Christmas.

[brenthutch 384]

Merry Christmas Bill!

[BIGUN 1,061]

On 12/21/2019 at 12:08 PM, brenthutch said:

 If you want to buy into some doomsday narrative

Or, you could just talk to the Tuvaluans...

Quote

 

The people of Tuvalu don't need to read scientific reports or have researchers and government officials explain their predicament to them. They can see and feel it for themselves, especially when the ocean crashes into their bedrooms more and more nights every year. Here are some of the changes they have noticed over the last few years.

1. Salt water is flooding the shores and killing coconut palms. Many large parcels of land used for palm plantations are no longer of any value, greatly affecting the local subsistence economy. The nation's chief export of dried coconut meat is threatened.

2. Pulaka is the staple diet of the people of Tuvalu. Salt water has seeped into the island's pulaka pits, which are used to grow the food crop, making the pits unfit for further cultivation. In some places, three-quarters of the plants have died, leaving people reliant on imported foods. Fruit trees and pandanas are also suffering. Salt-water intrusion has already affected communal crop gardens on six of Tuvalu's eight islands.

3. In general, the people of Tuvalu are having difficulties growing their crops because of salination of the soil.

4. Areas of the island are flooding that would not have flooded ten or fifteen years ago.

5. Spring tides have steadily gotten higher. King tides have also grown over the last years with the increase of the average atmosphere temperatures; sea water is now bubbling up through the porous coral landscape.

6. Groundwater is increasingly becoming undrinkable due to sea-water intrusion. It is brackish and salty. Islanders are relying on rain water catchment because saltwater intrusion into their aquifers is adversely affecting drinking water.

7. Several months of the year planes have difficulty landing because the airport's runway is partly underwater. That is something new.

8. Some Tuvalu residents have been forced to evacuate parts of the country because of rising sea levels. The New Zealand government established an immigration program called the Pacific Access Category to help qualifying Tuvaluans start over in a safer environment.

9. Family burial plots are sinking into the ocean or being moved to higher ground.

10. Water levels on the island are often ankle-deep. Ponds of seawater can appear anywhere and do. Severe lowland flooding is regularly seen on Tuvalu.

11. Floods used to occur twice a year. Now it is every month. One of the smallest islands, called Te Pukasavilivili actually disappeared in 1997.

12. New houses are all currently built on 10-foot-tall stilts, something never before seen in the traditional architecture of the island groupings. Nightclubs, restaurants and hotels are also being raised.

13. Fisherpeople have noticed rising sea levels and eroding shorelines as the island atolls shrink, some to half their original size.

14. Encroachment from the sea has claimed at least one percent of the 10 square miles of land that make up the archipelago. What used to be a sandy beach north of the wharf is now stony foreshore below the hotel where a retaining wall has been built to temporarily stave off the inevitable.

15. Tepuka Savilivili, a small island on the rim of Funafuti atoll, was washed over by waves a few years ago and its vegetation destroyed. It simply vanished in 1997.

16. The roots of coconut trees are rotted by the ocean, as every year sees more trees get swallowed up and replaced by beach. On the nearby islet of Vasafua, the coconut trees are dying. Entire atolls covered with trees have been stripped bare.

http://www.moyak.com/papers/tuvalu-climate-change.html