Ladies, how do you feel about this?

[Amazon 7]

Question.. how do you feel about killing people... It seems so many on the right to life side of the divide are also the ones who vehemently support retroactive abortion... and revel in it.



War is retroactive abortion


Death penalty is retroactive abortion.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Without getting into my personal beliefs on the issue of abortion, I hope they considered in the long term:
-the increased need for facilities and enforcement for the outcome of requiring births (social services, CPS, foster care, etc)

The state requires a woman to give birth but it can not force the woman to be a good parent. I realize social services has a role in this, but only after the mother is reported for something. If their concern was the children, I would think they would include the ones that have already been born.


.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Amazon 7]

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If their concern was the children, I would think they would include the ones that have already been born.

Never has been.. why would it start now.. in times of severe deficits.. we have billions for weapons systems( and not even enough few millions for our troops uparmour)... yet the few millions that social programs get are cut from budgets all over the country.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Yes, and now they are going to add more children in an already barely acceptable program...one might wonder did the child who was born really 'win' in the situation.


'We can't take care of what we have, now bring us more'

Edited to add: I think it is switching one problem for another, and what is more 'humane' for the child not so easily visible for everyone.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[sundevil777 94]

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Question.. how do you feel about killing people... It seems so many on the right to life side of the divide are also the ones who vehemently support retroactive abortion... and revel in it.



War is retroactive abortion


Death penalty is retroactive abortion.

I think it is not reasonable to compare the killing of those judged guilty of such capital crimes to the killing of an unborn baby.

I think it is not reasonable to say that one must be a pacifist in order to advocate some limitation of abortion.

I think the death penalty is not worth the risk of error, and not worth the cost and resources expended during the lengthy process that is applied attempting to prevent error.

War is hell. Humans haven't figured a way to avoid it yet.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Amazon 7]

killing is killing is killing.

I would rather see see death abolished...




but that is not reality.

I know I am not getting out alive.... so make the most of life while you have it.

[sundevil777 94]

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The state requires a woman to give birth

If at some point during the pregnancy, it is a life worth protecting as any other, then I think it is reasonable to prohibit the killing of it, as the killing of any other would be prohibited.

Does the fact that a baby is likely to have a tough life minimize this?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

you missed my point

if the state is requiring the birth, the state should be willing to take responsibility for it
a woman who doesnt want to birth a child is going to make a good mother - doubt that - hell some that want the child can't do it
i realize 'good' is subjective, but my point is what has the state put into place to 'protect' them once they are born, or is it no longer their problem after the birth

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[sundevil777 94]

What sort of society are you proposing?

If you take away all freedom and personal responsibility, a society/system could certainly be designed to take care of the problem.

But for now we have laws that attempt to protect the innocent/punish the guilty, and private and govt agencies with the mission to look out for the abused/innocent, and to help parents improve their parenting.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I am not proposing any type of society, just looking ahead

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If you take away all freedom and personal responsibility, a society/system could certainly be designed to take care of the problem.

and with this step we are on our way

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But for now we have laws that attempt to protect the innocent/punish the guilty, and private and govt agencies with the mission to look out for the abused/innocent, and to help parents improve their parenting.

an attempt is not success

like i said, trading one problem for another

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[boinky 0]

Without stating whether I am for or against abortion, to avoid getting flamed...I believe that it is sort of wrong to change the rules mid-stream.

The law was created years ago to allow the right to choose. Before that, people were STILL getting abortions, but were getting them done illegally and in not so healthy environments...with many people dying after having the procedure done. Or the procedure was so messed up, that the person could never have another pregnancy if they chose to in the future.

If they ban abortions, I don't believe it's going to stop people from having them done. They will just revert to the old times...and go through questionable channels to have them done.

So we'll have the possibility of both the fetus [B]AND[/B] the mother dying, just like before the law was created. Double Death.

Nina

Are we called "DAWGs" because we stick our noses up people's butts? (RIP Buzz)
Yep, you're a postwhore-billyvance

[Katherine 0]

pro-choice

My reasons:
I would rather terminate than drop out of uni to have a baby (at this stage in my life)
I would rather terminate than bring a baby into an abusive relationship.
I would rather 13/14 yar olds who did a very stupid thing and had sex and got pregnant, that they had the choice not to carry the pregnancy, it is not just giving birth that is traumati, being pregnant can be too.
What about the dangert of illigal / underground abortions? Much rather people were in a licensed facilit with registered doctors.

Abortion is a very imdividual thing and should be left at that.
x

Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk

[cesslon 0]

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To me it is murder, regardless if it is just literally a collection of cells or a 9 month fetus about to get a partial birth abortion.

every cell in the human body with the right conditions has the potential to be another human being,
so everytime you get a hair cut your comitting genocide on a massive scale

some of the religious loonies try and say that 150 cells bunched together have a soul LOL (personally I don't believe in souls)
now 150 cells having a soul is really really funny to the educated.

as a foetus with 150 cells can suddenly split into 2 embryo's, so what happens there? do you have twins with half a soul each, or do they suddenly magically each get a soul?
now after these bunch of cells have split into 2, its possible that they will merge back to being 1 embryo, so what will happen then? do you get 1 person born who has 2 souls?

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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I would rather terminate than drop out of uni to have a baby (at this stage in my life)

Then dont get pregnant.

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I would rather terminate than bring a baby into an abusive relationship.

Then dont be in an abusive relationship.

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Abortion is a very imdividual thing and should be left at that

Actually its two individual people, with only one making a choice.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[jojo69 0]

I see your point about not getting pregnant. However, at the time I was young "60's & 70's" birth control for women was also new. Pregnant was the most common situation. Rhythem method = Mom. Pills were still experimental and were running at about 70-80% effective and they were not always available except in the "big city".

Abusive relationships are not something that women or men get into by choice. They are something that develop over time. They are often wonderful relationships until the correct stressors are applied. The addition of more children are often the stressor.

The younger people on this thread do not remember or realize the choices that were available to the older people when we were the young "in heat" crowd.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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at the time I was young

I was referring to Katherine, who is in school right now and feels she would abort if pregnant now. Even in todays world of technology and medical advancement one can still get pregnant even when on birth control. Its simple, dont have sex.

Although I can never agree with abortion (the defects where the child is in essence decapitated is in my opinion not a human and therefore the removal of those tissues not an abortion), I would not hold it against someone if they had one, that is as long as they dont have multible abortions because they cant seem to use birth control.

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Abusive relationships are not something that women or men get into by choice.

I know all to well about this. However it is a choice. We make our own choices in life and we either choose to stay in an abusive relationship or we do not. If someone gets pregnant in an abusive relationship then they leave the abusive relationship to care for their child, NOT kill the child to stay in the abusive relationship.

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The younger people on this thread do not remember or realize the choices that were available to the older people when we were the young "in heat" crowd.

My mom had my brother on her 17th birthday. It was hard because she had to be a single mom because his family decided to move him away from her. My grandmother had her first child at 16, although she was married.

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young "in heat" crowd.

That is not a viable excuse for murder. Granted many people had abortions but they made choices for themselves and a choice for the child. Most times the girls who choose to kill the babies feel it is what they had to do at the time, however how many spend the rest of their life in regret? How many long for the life they took away?

Its not up to me to judge but I like a ban on abortion. My opinion is that life starts at conception and if the conditions are right it leads to a birth.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[kallend 1,647]

Quote

Quote

If their concern was the children, I would think they would include the ones that have already been born.

Never has been.. why would it start now.. in times of severe deficits.. we have billions for weapons systems( and not even enough few millions for our troops uparmour)... yet the few millions that social programs get are cut from budgets all over the country.

Infantrymen and women on welfare are not usually among the major donors to political campaigns. Defense contractors are.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

pro-choice

My reasons:
I would rather terminate than drop out of uni to have a baby (at this stage in my life)
I would rather terminate than bring a baby into an abusive relationship.
I would rather 13/14 yar olds who did a very stupid thing and had sex and got pregnant, that they had the choice not to carry the pregnancy, it is not just giving birth that is traumati, being pregnant can be too.
What about the dangert of illigal / underground abortions? Much rather people were in a licensed facilit with registered doctors.

Abortion is a very imdividual thing and should be left at that.
x

That list is about convenience and abdicating responsibility (I think it can be mitigated if you really mean prior to a certain point in time, but at this point it's easy to infer/stretch this to those reasons apply even late in a pregnancy). I think it well defines the other end of the spectrum. Brave to lay it out in any crowd, even a centrist, yet pro-choice crowed.
...


If we have a reasonable timeline criteria, like prior to brain activity with some safety factor in front of that, then I don't think the reasons matter, though. It can just be defined as a simple voluntary medical procedure that is solely up to the mother.

I'd be ok with that as long as the individuals are responsible for it. I don't see the government paying for it in any way.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Brain activity starts at about 10 weeks, and that's one way we determine whether a comatose patient should be kept on life support - so it seems valid to use the same standard to determine whether a fetus has the same sort of right to life.

I've been around teenagers. If 'brain activity' is a good criteria (I totally agree with that BTW), then abortions should be ok through the 80th trimester - IMO

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,146]

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My opinion is that life starts at conception and if the conditions are right it leads to a birth.

Conception, even before implantation?

Please don't take this wrong -- I'm asking honestly, because I cannot imagine holding that viewpoint, and would like to understand it.

In the absence of a requirement to believe in God, how can you believe that an unimplanted fertilized egg, or am embryo which is as-yet undetectable by the mother (well, sometimes -- I sure knew in a hurry) is fully human? What properties of it are involved in its humanity?

I believe in God, but I also don't think that a 3-week embryo is a human being yet. I don't think that the conferring of a soul goes with the DNA makeup as much as with the life force and collection of actions and effects on the lives around us that each of us (even people with serious defects) have.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[wmw999 2,146]

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If 'brain activity' is a good criteria (I totally agree with that BTW), then abortions should be ok through the 80th trimester

Note he didn't say organized brain activity

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RhondaLea 3]

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I see your point about not getting pregnant. However, at the time I was young "60's & 70's" birth control for women was also new. Pregnant was the most common situation.

"Pregnant" also happens to women who are meticulous about using birth control. Sometimes, shit happens.

A woman who has chosen to have an abortion--for whatever reason--has enough to deal with without the Monday morning quarterbacking of those who don't understand that they don't get to choose for anyone else.

An earlier exchange between Shannon and sundevil777 went like this (with elisions):

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***Maybe the first trimester? ...I just believe it's my choice, not yours.

The reason I cut out the stuff in the middle was that I think those two positions are not compatible.

I totally disagree that the two positions are incompatible. It may be that we can decide "when life begins" but the choice to end a pregancy still lies with the person whose body carries the fetus.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Conception, even before implantation?

Im not sure, I have to research it a bit more. I feel that life begins as soon as it is formed, its formed before implantation. If the conditions are not right then it wont survive. Granted what I feel may be with mis-information so I am going to go read up on it a bit more.

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In the absence of a requirement to believe in God

I believe in God, dont like him much but thats the other thread. I dont think this is a religous issue, but a morality issue, murder is wrong and it always is going to hurt someone somewhere. Even if we take God out of the equation it is still wrong to kill someone.

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What properties of it are involved in its humanity?

Im going to have to think of this for a bit. a mother cant have a abortion if she doesnt know if she is pregnant. As far as the morning after pill, well they should have thought about that the night before.

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I don't think that the conferring of a soul goes with the DNA makeup as much as with the life force and collection of actions and effects on the lives around us that each of us (even people with serious defects) have

But if we are aborting them, then how are we able to let them live enough to impact the lives of those around them? They are not goven a chance to be great.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I have a great solution!!!!!

Mandatory sperm bank for all men, then NEUTER THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Problem solved, and if someone wants children, well go make a withdrawal !




Who is with me?


Upon further reflection, some benefits:
-no 'who is the real father' paternity challenges (lighten the court burden-though Springer would need new material)
-takes away the desire for rape/incest abortions
-lightens the load on orphanages/foster care
-no more 'intentional accidents' to 'trap' the man


.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[rasmack 0]

I'm sorry but I just can't read this thread without having this song in the back of my head.
Sorry about the interruption. You can all go back to not understanding each other.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...