Ladies, how do you feel about this?

[RhondaLea 3]

There is a difference between killing and murder. I wanted to know how she differentiated between the two. Some people do define it differently. One of the first principles of good debate is defining one's terms.

Part of what we're trying to establish here is if an unborn child has rights and when those rights begin, right? No nose to swing at without that. And when does a fetus develop a nose anyway?

Based upon the content of her post, she sounded to me like someone who has never had to be responsible for a child. It is very easy to be blindly idealistic about what you have not experienced. As it turns out, however, she has taken quite a bit of responsibility--at a very young age--for some children, although they are not her own. To me, that fact makes me more inclined to hear what she has to say than someone who is just talking out their ass about things they know nothing about.

A question is a question, at least where I live. Wanting to know where someone is coming from is not an argument, but the basis for constructing an argument. Once you know where someone is coming from--once you understand their argument--you can make a counter-argument, not before.

rl

Edited to add:

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Their is a start when you, when you start to understand that maybe we can move foward onto a more meaningful disscussion. But first you need to come to terms with the facts.

Dude, what facts? I don't even understand what you just said here.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Steel 0]

In Reply To
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Their is a start when you, when you start to understand that maybe we can move foward onto a more meaningful disscussion. But first you need to come to terms with the facts.

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Dude, what facts? I don't even understand what you just said here.

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I guess that is what happens when I don't proof read. First I meant there (not their) is a start. You had asked 5 questions. I answered them with facts (not opinions). Therefore in order to move foward, I expect you to either bring more facts or even express opinions but not deny the facts. Here are some facts to consider.

1. A fetus's nose develops between 11 and 15 weeks. http://health.discovery.com/centers/pregnancy/americanbaby/senses.html
2. Abortion is killing and unborn baby.
3. Not having raised a child, does NOT mean your opinions are meaningless. As a matter of fact Andrea Yates have 5 of them. It did not help her understand the value of life.
4. Most people won't say that it was not a big deal if a plantation owner killed his slave for trying to escape just because it was legal for him to do so. Killing is killing. But I will give you it is good to separate the terms for the sake of a meaningful disscussion.
5. Being a woman you have never had a father and son relationship. Does that mean that in a custody battle you can totally dissmiss the woman's rights to her sons, because she has never and will never be in a position to relate (to the father and son relationship)?

,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[RhondaLea 3]

Quote

>It was wrong then and it IS wrong now for governments to legislate morals.

Suppose a man decides that all hookers are evil, and starts killing them systematically, because in his system of morals they are better off dead. Should the government try to stop him, or should they not interfere in his moral decision?

The prohibition against people murdering people is very practical. It makes it reasonably safe for most of us to have business and social dealings. The government is not legislating morality, but is mandating an environment the vast majority has agreed will prevent society from breaking down completely.

There are those, however, who feel they are exempt, which is why we have penalties for murder.

There are also situations when killing (vs. murder) is looked upon as being the only practical and possible solution. War comes to mind.

The government doesn't care about your hypothetical serial killer's moral stance on prostitution. And your hypothetical serial killer will still think he is morally correct when they strap him down on the gurney and give him the needle.

We don't have prohibitions against "crimes against persons" for high and mighty moral reasons, although there are those who might think so. It's just the idea of "you don't do to me, I don't do to you" institutionalized.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[narcimund 0]

You introduce this series of 5 items as "facts" but your mind seems to have wandered as you wrote them. Maybe you should review what the word means.

Quote

1. A fetus's nose develops between 11 and 15 weeks. http://health.discovery.com/centers/pregnancy/americanbaby/senses.html

That's heartwarming I suppose, but so what? This DOES qualify as a fact, but the relevance is fleeting.

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2. Abortion is killing and unborn baby.

This is a semantic argument and there's intense disagreement. It hardly qualifies as a "fact".

Quote

3. Not having raised a child, does NOT mean your opinions are meaningless. As a matter of fact Andrea Yates have 5 of them. It did not help her understand the value of life.

Although the point you're making is true, this statement is a transparent fallacy. If you untangle some of the negatives I think you'll have an easier time seeing that. Regardless, this is also hardly a "fact".

Quote

4. Most people won't say that it was not a big deal if a plantation owner killed his slave for trying to escape just because it was legal for him to do so. Killing is killing. But I will give you it is good to separate the terms for the sake of a meaningful disscussion.

Convoluted. Could you rephrase this with fewer negatives? I can't tell if you're stating a "fact" or not but it doesn't look like you are.

Quote

5. Being a woman you have never had a father and son relationship. Does that mean that in a custody battle you can totally dissmiss the woman's rights to her sons, because she has never and will never be in a position to relate (to the father and son relationship)?

While the first sentence is certainly a "fact", the rest of the point confuses the matter.

I recommend if you're going to make a big point that you're listing only facts, you should carefully separate the interpretations out. Otherwise it's really hard to take your post seriously.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[RhondaLea 3]

Just so I'm perfectly clear, her post sounded very young and naive to me in its tone, especially the last line. As I said before, I wanted some clarity about where she was coming from. I got it from a totally different source.

Abortion, by definition, is more than the killing of an unborn baby. I've never terminated a pregnancy, but I've had several spontaneous abortions.

Killing has one definition. Murder has another. Otherwise, you've turned all the soldiers who are in the service of this country (all countries) into murderers. And they're not.

I have a lot of trouble with the concept expressed above, btw. Your example of the escaping slave is just one reason. I would call that murder, even if the strict definition of murder does not apply. So then it becomes a moral judgment...and that brings us right up against the argument here.

A woman can relate to a father/son relationship by empathizing as one who has had a mother/son relationship or even a mother/daughter relationship. It is also possible to learn something of what such a relationship is about by listening and using empathy. Without having experienced it, it remains somewhat foreign. Dismissing it as irrelevant, however, is another matter entirely. The bond between a father and a son should simply be assumed to exist unless there is evidence to the contrary.

But someone who has never been a mother (or a father) cannot really understand the wide range of emotion that comes with parenthood, or the sense of responsibility one feels for one very small life. Most people understand their own parents a lot better the moment their child is born. A non-parent cannot understand the compulsion that a mother would feel to put herself in harm's way for her child. It isn't merely an idea: "I would die for my child", it's a physical compulsion.

I have known women who have had abortions because they believe they cannot provide a decent standard of care for a child at that time. Female rabbits actually reabsorb their embryos in such conditions, but human females aren't able to do it and must find mechanical means.

To this you will say adoption, and to some extent I agree, in a case where you're not asking a woman to carry a defective baby, or a product of rape or especially incest. With that aside, I've known quite a few adopted children. Some have had very good lives. Others have not. And then there are the horror stories we read about in the newspapers. Would you want to be the mother who gave up her baby to Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nussbaum?

rl

Edited to add: I'm not advocating for abortion instead of adoption. I'm telling you that for some women, an abortion is as much a way of protecting their child as is running back into a burning building to rescue their child. It's a very personal decision.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Steel 0]

Judging from you previous posts, it no shocker that you are making no sense at all. I know this may be difficult for your reaoning capabilities but here is the definition of fact. Pay close attention to the word undisputed, it means we all know for sure its true.

fact ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fkt)
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.

Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact.
A real occurrence; an event: had to prove the facts of the case.
Something believed to be true or real: a document laced with mistaken facts.

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In Reply To
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1. A fetus's nose develops between 11 and 15 weeks. http://health.discovery.com/...icanbaby/senses.html

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That's heartwarming I suppose, but so what? This DOES qualify as a fact, but the relevance is fleeting.
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This is absolutely true only a fool would argue witht the accuracty of this statement. But I guess it doesn't suprise me that you question it. Also, she asked the question. I answered it and backed it up. It is a fact.
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In Reply To
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2. Abortion is killing and unborn baby.

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This is a semantic argument and there's intense disagreement. It hardly qualifies as a "fact".
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Again back to the definition of what a fact is. It is killing an unborn baby. Do you know anybody with a brain that dissagrees with that. No well that settles it its a fact.

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In Reply To
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3. Not having raised a child, does NOT mean your opinions are meaningless. As a matter of fact Andrea Yates have 5 of them. It did not help her understand the value of life.

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Although the point you're making is true, this statement is a transparent fallacy. If you untangle some of the negatives I think you'll have an easier time seeing that. Regardless, this is also hardly a "fact".
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I know all those negatives may be difficult for you because of you level of basic logic but they are necessary. If you take them out you have a different statement. 'having raised a child, does mean your opinions are meaningless'. Again if somebody poses the question directly 'does not having a child mean you no knowledge to offer with the living status of an unborn child?' The answer is an unequivical no, its not up for opinion.
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In Reply To
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4. Most people won't say that it was not a big deal if a plantation owner killed his slave for trying to escape just because it was legal for him to do so. Killing is killing. But I will give you it is good to separate the terms for the sake of a meaningful disscussion.

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Convoluted. Could you rephrase this with fewer negatives? I can't tell if you're stating a "fact" or not but it doesn't look like you are.
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I see your stuck on the negatives again. Watch closely, Most people will say that it was a big deal if a plantation owner killed his slave for trying to escape just because it was legal for him to do so.
That one actually does not loose its meaning without the negatives. But it does not draw are direct parallel to her previous statement, suggesting that killing is ok, if it is legal. Here is an example where most people would agree that just because it was legal it was not ok. But you think that some people think it was ok and therefore not a fact that its wrong, fine. Maybe then you can also tell us that its ok to set a gay man on fire in Saudi Arabia because it legal to do so there or atleast you can argue that its a matter of opinion.
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In Reply To
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5. Being a woman you have never had a father and son relationship. Does that mean that in a custody battle you can totally dissmiss the woman's rights to her sons, because she has never and will never be in a position to relate (to the father and son relationship)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again, this is getting pretty confused, but again this isn't a "fact".

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The inability to accept facts was the basis for enumerating them. I can see that regardless of how clear and concice statements are phrasing talk to some like yourself it like whipping a dead horse trying to get it to move.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[narcimund 0]

There is one thing we agree on: our intelligence levels are mismatched.

I'll leave it at that.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Steel 0]

To this you will say adoption, and to some extent I agree, in a case where you're not asking a woman to carry a defective baby, or a product of rape or especially incest. With that aside, I've known quite a few adopted children. Some have had very good lives. Others have not. And then there are the horror stories we read about in the newspapers. Would you want to be the mother who gave up her baby to Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nussbaum?
----------------------------------------------
On what leads up to this we can agree. I don't offer an alternative for the circumstances you have stated. But that doesn't mean we can't address all the other issues that more people would agree upon.

Hopefully some day there will be something fair to the fetus and the women in the situations you described. But as of now I hope for the other situations leading to the overwelming majority of abortions, to be addressed..

wow edited to add to be addressed.
,
.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

But as of now I hope for the other situations leading to the overwelming majority of abortions, to be addressed..

wow edited to add to be addressed.
,
.

Safe and effective birth control combined with sound sex education would be a great start, with NO moralizing from the government or churches.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RhondaLea 3]

I did ask the question, which is where the whole nose thing came from.

But you keep defining abortion incorrectly.

I tried not to be legalistic with you, but unless I just address each thing you postulate individually, I can't really argue, because you haven't made a coherent argument for anything.

Quote

Judging from you previous posts, it no shocker that you are making no sense at all.

And this was just laughable.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Steel 0]

And this was just laughable.

rl
-----------------------
Well although I can't see your humour, I am glad you have something laugh about. I can laugh all of Narci's posts and many of yours and you have something to laugh at too, sounds great to me.
Cheers.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 2,400]

>The prohibition against people murdering people is very practical. It
> makes it reasonably safe for most of us to have business and social
> dealings.

So would a bodyguard, and that would work just fine in a capitalistic society - the guy with the most money lives, people have an excellent incentive to _make_ money, and the weaker earners are removed from the labor pool.

The primary reason we have laws against murder is that our most basic document of government says that everyone has a right to life. Most other societies have similar morals, written down (or passed down) in various ways. That's codified morality.

>The government doesn't care about your hypothetical serial killer's
>moral stance on prostitution.

The government doesn't care until he starts breaking laws - at which point they will try to stop him, even if his actions are based on his morals.

[rasmack 0]

I kind of prefer when we're bashing someone together instead of bashing each other.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[billvon 2,400]

Steel, Narci, stop with the thinly veiled PA's.

[Steel 0]

Quote

I kind of prefer when we're bashing someone together instead of bashing each other.

Funny that you mention that, probably requires its own thread but you raise a very interesting point. I think people who need to gang up on other people do so because they are afraid to face that person alone. Most people tend to like mob rule when its in their favor. I actually look down on it.
,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[rasmack 0]

Boy, you're in a good mood today.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Rebecca 0]

Quote

I can laugh all of Narci's posts

Just because it made sense in your head doesn't mean it actually makes sense.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Rebecca 0]

Quote

OK, then for the sake of argument:

1.) It is our ultimate goal to be accepted into Heaven
2.) Until then, and in order for that to happen, we must accept Christ, reject sin, and live in accordance with His word, seeking to do His will.
3.) Aborting a fetus is the sin of murder, as well as interference with God's plan and could condemn a person to hell
4.) The aborted fetus goes directly to Heaven and receives its eternal reward without having to suffer through life in this world



If the above are true, then aren't those arguing from a theological perspective trying to save the mother, not the fetus?

Was this post utter hogwash?

I was really hoping for a counterpoint...

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Steel 0]

Quote

Boy, you're in a good mood today.

I am ok getting kind of busy, but had a little time to waste stating the obvious.

,

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Lindsey 0]

My thoughts are that life really isn't all that sacred. Suffering is more of an issue than life, imho. An embryo or fetus in the first half of pregnancy has not developed into a being with the capacity to think or feel. It has no sensorium.

Synapses begin to form in the fetal brain between 20-28 weeks....at which point there's actual brain activity of some sort....which is necessary, in my mind, to consider its life something to potentially be protected.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Safe and effective birth control combined with sound sex education would be a great start, with NO moralizing from the government or churches or schools or planned parenthood.

just finishing your post. nice point though

'thinly veiled' PAs.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

Quote

OK, then for the sake of argument:

1.) It is our ultimate goal to be accepted into Heaven
2.) Until then, and in order for that to happen, we must accept Christ, reject sin, and live in accordance with His word, seeking to do His will.
3.) Aborting a fetus is the sin of murder, as well as interference with God's plan and could condemn a person to hell
4.) The aborted fetus goes directly to Heaven and receives its eternal reward without having to suffer through life in this world



If the above are true, then aren't those arguing from a theological perspective trying to save the mother, not the fetus?

Was this post utter hogwash?

I was really hoping for a counterpoint...

I thought it was freaking brilliant. But I am in the mood to suck up today.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I thought it was freaking brilliant. But I am in the moo to suck up today.

hey hatboy -

there's a place for sucking up, THE THREAD or, alternatively, the Bonfire

Speakers Corner just sucks.

I mean, really, where's the rage?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

Quote

I thought it was freaking brilliant. But I am in the moo to suck up today.

hey hatboy -

there's a place for sucking up, THE THREAD or, alternatively, the Bonfire

Speakers Corner just sucks.

I mean, really, where's the rage?

That fire inside me is barely a whimper right now.

And why is the 'd' removed from that quote?

I grow weary of sorting through thinly veiled personal attacks to find saliant points upon which to argue against. So I don't bother most of the time.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

Quote

Safe and effective birth control combined with sound sex education would be a great start, with NO moralizing from the government or churches or schools or planned parenthood.

just finishing your post. nice point though

'thinly veiled' PAs.

Education is the business of schools. Moralizing is not.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.