RhondaLea 3 #176 February 26, 2006 Quotebecause they get to have all the fun... Court Allows Church's Hallucinogenic Tea So anyway, Keely, how's that conversion coming? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #177 February 26, 2006 QuoteIn any case, this isn't to say that there are no miracles, that people don't regain their sight. Check this out: ----------------- Pioneering Stem-Cell Surgery Restores Sight A British team of researchers at the Centre for Sight, Queen Victoria Hospital, Sussex has successfully treated more than a dozen patients who had damaged corneas. Of their patients, 10 had completely lost their sight due to getting acid, alkali or burning metal in their eye or had a congenital defect that caused the blindness. Out of this group, seven patients had had their sight restored after stem cells were cultured into a sheet of cells in a laboratory before being transplanted onto the surface of the patient’s eye. --------------- That's no less a miracle because no saints or visitations were involved. Indeed, in some ways it is even more of a miracle because it is the result of the dedicated efforts of thousands of doctors, scientists and test subjects who sacrificed their time and energy to restore sight to these people. These are the sort of miracles I hope for, because a) they do real good for a lot of people and b) they encourage others to pursue miracles in the same vein. A scientist may indeed pray for comfort or guidance; but if he wants to cure blindness, he is most likely to find that miracle in his laboratory. I don't really have anything to add, but I just had to say that this is a great post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #178 February 26, 2006 I think Tom Wolfe said it best: "A cult is a religion with no political power." Using that definition, I'd say the Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult. I don't know much about their political power, but they certainly have some economic power. I used to work at a hospital in Los Angeles that had set up an entire transfusion-free medicine and surgery program, initially to market to JW's but ultimately they realized that it was a program that would appeal to a wider market *and* that would challenge them to take new approaches to surgery and medicine. It was a win-win for the hospital - they used it as marketing to get more patients, and it gave the docs an interesting challenge."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #179 February 26, 2006 QuoteQuotebecause they get to have all the fun... Court Allows Church's Hallucinogenic Tea So anyway, Keely, how's that conversion coming? Well, so far it has given me a nice headache and left a funny taste in my mouth. And God spoke to me the other night, but I can't remember what he said. And now I can't remember where I left my shoes... And actually, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that I was abducted by aliens the other night... shortly after my conversation with God... Damn, I wish I could remember what he said; I think it may have been important... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #180 February 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotebecause they get to have all the fun... Court Allows Church's Hallucinogenic Tea So anyway, Keely, how's that conversion coming? Well, so far it has given me a nice headache and left a funny taste in my mouth. And God spoke to me the other night, but I can't remember what he said. And now I can't remember where I left my shoes... And actually, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that I was abducted by aliens the other night... shortly after my conversation with God... Damn, I wish I could remember what he said; I think it may have been important... So now you are as qualified as any old testament prophet to tell us how to behave.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #181 February 26, 2006 QuoteSo now you are as qualified as any old testament prophet to tell us how to behave. Do you think she might be persuaded to repeal a commandment or two? HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #182 February 26, 2006 QuoteI'd say the Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult.I don't call anyone a cult, neither does my church. Like I said, our church doesn't judge others. All I know is that Jehovah Witnesses don't believe that Jesus is part of the holy trinity. They believe that Jesus is not God and that when they go to heaven they will be at the same level as Jesus. Something to that effect. I'm not an authority on them but that's what I know about them so far. More infor about Jehovah Witnesses: http://www.jw-media.org/beliefs/trueworship.htm What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #183 February 26, 2006 QuoteSo now you are as qualified as any old testament prophet to tell us how to behave. Does mocking people really help you sleep better at night? I'm just curious. Don't take that personal. I'm just trying to understand why people here get a kick out of mocking Christians and their beliefs. I don't know where you guys live or where you come from but here in NY, most Christians don't force themselves or their beliefs on other people. I do not have anything bad to say about agnostics or aetheist. I don't even have bad thoughts about them. I see them as being lost and I pray for them. I see us all as God's children and if I were to mock you for not believing what I believe and for not being a christian I will be judged by my holy father. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #184 February 26, 2006 QuoteI'm not an authority on them Nor am I, nor am I an authority on religion in general. I do tend to agree with Wolfe's description of cult vs. religion, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #185 February 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo now you are as qualified as any old testament prophet to tell us how to behave. Does mocking people really help you sleep better at night? I'm just curious. Don't take that personal. I'm just trying to understand why people here get a kick out of mocking Christians and their beliefs. I don't know where you guys live or where you come from but here in NY, most Christians don't force themselves or their beliefs on other people. I do not have anything bad to say about agnostics or aetheist. I don't even have bad thoughts about them. I see them as being lost and I pray for them. I see us all as God's children and if I were to mock you for not believing what I believe and for not being a christian I will be judged by my holy father. I find your beliefs as valid as a child believing in the Easter Bunny. There is exactly the same amount of objective proof of the existence of your God as for the Easter Bunny (none). Every shred of evidence you present is self-referential or subjective. Childrens' beliefs I can understand. Adults who believe in invisible friends - no.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #186 February 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteOne last thing--if people have such a hard time accepting the Bible is real, God is real, Christianity is true,etc--why would they have to argue or debate about it? Why not just let Christians go on and believe what they believe? And why can't bloody christians let ME believe what I believe ??? This morning at 0730 I was RUDELY awkened by some fuckwit banging on the front door trying to "sell" christianity. I'm an atheist and not the slightest bit interested - especially at 0730 on a Sunday morning after working until 0300. I do NOT take kindly to strangers on my doorstep berating me for not being in church. The very first words, after "good morning" were "why aren't you in church?" As I said - fuckwits. Edited to add that very, very rarely a week goes by without some form of god botherer coming to my door trying to, usually, "Save" me. Unacceptable - I don't go around telling people that their belief in god is stupid. Nor, as a vegtarian, do I go around telling people to stop eating meat. By the same token NEVER have I had a meat eater seriously try to convince me that vegetarianism is all wrong and I MUST start eating meat. Ooroo Mark F... Calling bullshit on that one. No one goes around at 7:30 in the morining (especially Sunday) asking you why you wasn't in church. Not even the JW's Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #187 February 27, 2006 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2095372#2095372 QuoteI have already posted a long list in a previous thread. Do your own homework. Since you get so bent out of shape on our beliefs can you at least answer my question and tell me how you fell out of being a student of the bible? I cannot find your previous post about this topic. You're much too active on different threads on a daily basis. I can't weed it out. If you want to move on from it or if you're not up to looking for the thread, then never mind. I'm just curious as to why you fell out of your bible belief. It's just curiousity. QuoteI find your beliefs as valid as a child believing in the Easter Bunny. There is exactly the same amount of objective proof of the existence of your God as for the Easter Bunny (none). Every shred of evidence you present is self-referential or subjective. Childrens' beliefs I can understand. Adults who believe in invisible friends - no. Take it easy guy. It's my life, not yours. If it upsets you that much, turn your cheek man. It ain't killing anybody for me to believe what I want to believe. You being an ex bible believer isn't killing anyone either. I'm not forcing my belief on you. So why be concerned if I want to belief in the easter bunny or in an invisible friend? Leave it be man. Don't strain yourself in wondering why we believe what we believe. I don't go on demanding answers why atheist and agnostics are the way they are. It's a big world out there man. There's room for everyone in it. Just accept the fact that there are people out there with different beliefs and values from your own. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #188 February 27, 2006 QuoteCalling bullshit on that one. No one goes around at 7:30 in the morining (especially Sunday) asking you why you wasn't in church. Not even the JW's JW's actually start to come around 7:45am or 8:00am. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #189 February 27, 2006 my sister and her husband are JW they go out and bug people (a lot) but not that early and not on Sunday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #190 February 27, 2006 QuoteIf it upsets you that much, turn your cheek man. I didn't get the impression that he was upset; he was just stating his beliefs, as you are yours. QuoteDon't strain yourself in wondering why we believe what we believe. Even though I am an atheist, I spend a lot of time thinking about religion and wondering why people believe what they believe. Religion and its various beliefs and values play a large role in determining what goes on in our world, so I feel that it is something valid for even atheists to be concerned with and to try to understand. As for the mockery thing... Christianity, because of its somewhat invasive history, has opened itself up to mockery and ridicule by those who do not wish to be converted or to live by rules that are dictated by Christian beliefs. (But I do want to say... I started this thread out of plain silliness - not to be mean to Christians.) Oh, and just to give you some information about my own religious history (if you are interested)... I was raised as a Baptist - went to church at least once or twice a week until I was about 14 years old... Read the bible from front to back, spent more time on some parts than others - spent a lot of time in bible study while I was going to church... Never had any bad experiences at church during that time... But basically I never believed any of it. As soon as I got to an age where I was really thinking about it (I believe I was around 8 or 9 years old), I started thinking of God as something like Santa or the Easter Bunny... And I don't mean that to be offensive to you; that is really what I was thinking at the time. So basically I have never believed in God - not due to any sort of bad experience, but due to my own personal logic... Though I do respect that another person's logic may lead them to belief in a god of some sort... My main concern regarding religion is not to convert anyone to atheism, but to find ways that we can live together without our different beliefs causing conflict. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #191 February 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo now you are as qualified as any old testament prophet to tell us how to behave. Do you think she might be persuaded to repeal a commandment or two? Sure, I'll get rid of that "thou shalt not commit adultery" commandment... That is just SO yesterday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #192 February 27, 2006 QuoteI have made no statements about your life or your prayers, only about prayers in general. I stand by what I said: The probability of your prayer being fulfilled is identical to the probability of the same thing happening without prayer. With a random distribution of events, there will be people whose prayers get answered at the usual rate. There will also be people whose prayers get answered less often than the usual rate(they are the ones God is testing, I suppose). And then there are the people whose prayers get answered very often or all of the time(by chance, of course). I suppose you are one of them. These people will probably have a very strong, unfaltering faith resulting from their prayers "being answered". Just to clarify, to pray is not to request for blessings and what not. Jesus taught us to pray so that we may grow closer to God. It helps us to communicate with God. We don't necessarily get vocal replies from God but in his way, we get answers to our prayers. I'm not qualified to get too deep into this. I'm sure Pajarito and windcatcher can elaborate on this. RevJim can definitely shine some light on this issue. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkF 0 #193 February 27, 2006 QuoteCalling bullshit on that one. No one goes around at 7:30 in the morining (especially Sunday) asking you why you wasn't in church. Not even the JW's That's funny, I don't remember you being here. Obviously you were else you wouldn't be calling me a liar in an open forum, would you ? Ooroo Mark F... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #194 February 27, 2006 All these discussions remind me of an old song: I've heard it all before You're saying nothing new I thought I saw a rainbow But I guess it wasn't true I cannot make you listen and you cannot make me care So you find your way to heaven and I'll meet you when you're there How can you live in this way? (why do you think it's so strange?) There must be something I can say (I see no reason to change) We have no reason to fight cause we both know that we're right Child of vision, won't you listen? Find yourself a new ambition Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #195 February 27, 2006 QuoteSure, I'll get rid of that "thou shalt not commit adultery" commandment... That is just SO yesterday. You just read my mind. You really must be a prophet. Now, about coveting my neighbours wife or maidservant...?HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #196 February 27, 2006 Calling you a liar? I didn't say you're a liar. People can get all caught up in anti Christian rhetoric here and "embellish" things I suppose. maybe things are different "down under" and church people come bug others on the day they go to church. I'll ask my neighbor, he's an Aussie. That said, only door to door pests that I'm aware of are mormons and JW's. They don't solict people on the sabbath. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #197 February 27, 2006 QuoteI thought I saw a rainbow Careful, you'll get PJ started on the rainbow thing again... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #198 February 28, 2006 QuoteZen, I am amazed you ALWAYS have the answers to everything the dishonesty in your statement says much about the 'real' person behind the image you attempt to project here.. i do not have the answers for everything... but i didnt stop looking the first time i found one i liked either...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #199 February 28, 2006 wow, it's called sarcasm Zen, lighten up!!! I AM upfront and honest; my sarcastic remark was due to how you always like to explain away a Christian's faith. Quotei do not have the answers for everything... but i didnt stop looking the first time i found one i liked either... are you implying us Christians haven't searched for the right answers? If you do not know me, or someone else, and our life history, please don't pretend you do and try to base your opinion on that. Just a suggestion p.s.What 'image' am I trying to project here? I am curious to know, because I thought I was myself on dz.com Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #200 February 28, 2006 QuoteI'll bet that most of the atheists here when faced with a situation that is going to maybe result in their death will be thinking something like "oh God no!" this is a common misconception and one often repeated by Christians who simply assume that atheists really do believe in their God.. guess what? They dont.. they really do believe there is no God at all, and are just as firmly convinced of their beliefs as any Christian i've ever met... in addition there is a significant portion of humanity who have, and will continue to have, completely different thoughts at the moment of death than those you imagine... including "well this will be interesting..." one of the most difficult steps to self development (particularly as a 'true believer') is to set your preconceptions aside and examine the world 'outside' (without the filter you have been unconsciously wearing most of your life) of your immediate experience and existing beliefs...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
