DL and NW file Chapter 11

[Duckwater 0]

My Dad is a retired 777 Capt. for DL. He stands to lose about $7,000 a month if his pension gets turned over to the PGCB....(which it will).....

Nobody's retirement is safe.

--

[justinb138 0]

Whats DL and NW?

[TrophyHusband 0]

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Whats DL and NW?

delta and northwest airlines.

it is absolutely terrible for the people who have invested there lives to build a retirement and now have nothing. i'm normally against the government stepping in on things, but i think something needs to be done to ensure that people don't lose their retirement because of mismanagement or cooked book. maybe some sort of retirement insurance.

i don't understand why these airlines continued to operate in the red while dicount airlines like airtran and jet blue have proven that you could make a profit.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[FallRate 0]

Umm...anyone notice this:

$7,000 a month

One of the most serious problems that the majors face is the exorbitant salaries paid to flight crews.

Sorry if I'm not sensitive to the plight of someone who made a six figure salary while employed part-time!

(This statement is based on a conversation I had with a retired Marine Colonel flying for Fed-Ex. His direct quote concerning flying for a major: "You can't beat the money for a part-time job.")

Edited to add: While I feel strongly about this, I would like to say that I do not wish your Father any ill will.

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[slug 1]

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Whats DL and NW?

delta and northwest airlines.

it is absolutely terrible for the people who have invested there lives to build a retirement and now have nothing. i'm normally against the government stepping in on things, but i think something needs to be done to ensure that people don't lose their retirement because of mismanagement or cooked book. maybe some sort of retirement insurance.

i don't understand why these airlines continued to operate in the red while dicount airlines like airtran and jet blue have proven that you could make a profit.

Hi Husband

The gov't has some kind of a safety net for retirement plans in Place. But they only cover a certain max $ amount.

Not enough in this case

R.I.P.

[rmsmith 1]

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One of the most serious problems that the majors face is the exorbitant salaries paid to flight crews.

Pilots walk a fine line during their careers. Any negative character, debt, or physical health issues can sink your job instantly. What if you poke-out an eye during a horseback ride; think the 777 job will still be there? I'm not a pilot, but I hate seeing this happen to them because it makes me wonder when it's going to be my turn.

[TrophyHusband 0]

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Umm...anyone notice this:

$7,000 a month

One of the most serious problems that the majors face is the exorbitant salaries paid to flight crews.

Sorry if I'm not sensitive to the plight of someone who made a six figure salary while employed part-time!

(This statement is based on a conversation I had with a retired Marine Colonel flying for Fed-Ex. His direct quote concerning flying for a major: "You can't beat the money for a part-time job.")

Edited to add: While I feel strongly about this, I would like to say that I do not wish your Father any ill will.

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it doesn't matter if its $700, $7000, $70,000. it was his money, he earned it. as far as his salary, supply and demand applies to job skills just as it applies to widgets. very few people can do that job, and they are responsible for hundreds of lives on a daily basis. let me repeat, it was his money, he earned it.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[Lindsey 0]

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One of the most serious problems that the majors face is the exorbitant salaries paid to flight crews.

Pilots walk a fine line during their careers. Any negative character, debt, or physical health issues can sink your job instantly. What if you poke-out an eye during a horseback ride; think the 777 job will still be there? I'm not a pilot, but I hate seeing this happen to them because it makes me wonder when it's going to be my turn.

That's what disability insurance is for. It's also wise to put money in more than one place so that if something awful happens within your company, your WHOLE savings doesn't go with it.

It does stink for folks that this happened to, but they've certainly had more opportunities to prepare for their futures than most people do.

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Frenchy68 0]

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it is absolutely terrible for the people who have invested there lives to build a retirement and now have nothing.

I haven't read the specifics yet, but filing for Chapter 11 does not mean that pension funds vanish into the air. It may allow the airlines to renegotiate contributions going forward, but is not going to wipe out previous contributions. These should be kept warm into the various Unions' coffers and investments.
Chapter 11 allows such companies to restructure their debt. Do some take advantage of the system? Definitely. Will some people get screwed? Again, definitely. But if they can emerge from Chapter 11 in a healthy way (which is not a guarantee), then their employees may be better off in the long run.

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i don't understand why these airlines continued to operate in the red while dicount airlines like airtran and jet blue have proven that you could make a profit.

Amazon.com didn't get into the black until about 10 years after it started business. Being in the red does not always mean that business is doomed.
And although Jetblue & co do play a part in the demise of bigger airlines, it's a totally different market.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[FallRate 0]

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Pilots walk a fine line during their careers.

Most everyone walks a fine line. Most Americans are insulated from bankruptcy by two to four paychecks.

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Any negative character, debt, or physical health issues can sink your job instantly.

I watched a man, who was raising a family, lose his job delivering pizzas because a customer complained that he was rude...not insulting...just rude.

I know of a man (my Father knew him well) who broke a window at Kroger's Grocery by accidentally pushing a stack of carts into it...after 20+ years of service to this company, he was immediately fired and denied any retirement benefits.

A co-worker of mine lost her position as a Truck Driver for FedEx when she developed diabetes.

We can all lose our jobs (or careers) for many reasons, at any time. Pilots are not unique in this matter.

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[FallRate 0]

Let me emphasize...I will not lose sleep over someone who earned a shitload of money for part-time work losing out on his retirement. I didn't post this. I only responded to the idea that this was somehow alarming. It isn't.

As far as very few people being able to do the job...there are more people who are qualified to do that job than there are who actually have the job. As far as supply and demand goes, supply is quite high right now...and Airlines are adjusting for it.

His money? Not if he doesn't actually get to deposit it in his own account. If the company doesn't have it...well, promises, promises.

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[rehmwa 2]

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My Dad is a retired 777 Capt. for DL. He stands to lose about $7,000 a month if his pension gets turned over to the PGCB....(which it will).....--

$7K a month lost? So his pension is

1 - $84,000 per year LESS than it would have been? or
2 - The $84,000 per year total would be removed.

This is not salary, it's pension?

Even as nuts as this sounds, if he had an agreement, then the agreement should be met. And if bad agreements put the airline out of business and he loses his pension as a result, well, then the employees, unions and the company all pay for making bad agreements. But this type of deal will bring the best of companies to its knees (grave).

All the rest of us won't get pensions, etc. They just aren't part of the equation anymore.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Channman 2]

Its an ongoing problem for many corporations. The Pension is going away and being replaced by 401k plans...There are several companies and States that are currently underfunding their retirement programs and are in great financial difficultly.

I believe we are seeing the first of many to come.

More than any other time its important that the American family get out of debt, cut the credit cards up, and start saving. My father told us kids that we need to become owners not loaners, simply put take responsiblity for your own savings and educate yourself on how money works and how to make it work harder for you. (Rule of 72 comes to mind)

Take ownership of your money and never place it in areas that you give up ownership of it, case in point Cash Value Life Insurance policies, Pension plans, Fixed Annuities...he did'nt much like CDs either calling them certificates of depreciation because they did not out perform inflation and taxes.

Delta defalting (defalting may not be the correct word) on their roughly 3.6 - 3.8 billion dollar pension and forgoing funding 500,000,000+ into it this year due in part they were planning on filing bankrupcy will cause great difficulty for thousands.

[Duckwater 0]

I have a 401K, Company Pension and Railroad Retirement. As it stands now, I will make MORE money retired than I do now. My company is making money hand over fist right now too. But, I pay attention to history and I would be a fool to think I will have anything but what I have in my 401K and savings in 30 years. THE MAN will find a way to steal it from me.

--

[SkyDekker 1,155]

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Let me emphasize...I will not lose sleep over someone who earned a shitload of money for part-time work losing out on his retirement. I didn't post this. I only responded to the idea that this was somehow alarming. It isn't.

I agree.

Guess he shouldn't have put all his eggs in one basket....the gravy train does run dry at some point.

[beowulf 1]

Never rely on a company to look out for your future. You need to look out for your own future. Companies look out for themselves and no one else. Employees are all expendable. It's too bad that he will lose his pension.

[Rookie120 0]

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i don't understand why these airlines continued to operate in the red while dicount airlines like airtran and jet blue have proven that you could make a profit.

Very good question. I did not understand it either until I got into the airline industry. First off the discount carriers dont pay nearly as much as the majors. I work for a regional carrier and someone in the same position with a major is sometime making 4-5 times as much. But it's hard to get with the majors and the threat of layoff's is high. Same goes for pilots and flight crew.

Majors also have to purchase larger AC. A 777 costs a lot more than lets say a 737. Some of the discounters like Jet Blue who is based on the east cost and Frontier who is based in Denver dont have to worry about having multiple hubs. Frontier's hub is Denver and Jet Blue is JFK. Not as much money to operate. Those 2 companys also got most of there AC from Airbus really cheap and at zero maintenance cost for 5 years was the deal they got. But carries like Jet Blue who got those deals are starting to hit some hard time because a lot of there planes are coming up due for heavy C-checks which for an A320 will cost usually around 1-4 million and the plane will be out of service for about 3 weeks. They had new planes and didnt have to worry about it before. But it's getting them now. Same with Frontier.

Southwest operate almost exclusively 737. Cheaper because you dont have to stock parts for 10 different AC. From what I have also seen about Southeast is unless your a mechanic or pilot, the pay is fairly low.

There are a million other reasons I'm sure that I have no idea about. But these are some of the reasons. I'm sure mismanagement is a big part of it also.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[DA50 0]

They did it to themselves. 20,000 pilot on retirement x $7,000 a month makes them a target for low cost carriers. If it weren’t for the Government protecting them with Chapter 11 they would have been eliminated by the competition years ago.

[Channman 2]

Well I would just like to add, if my retirement income is not at least 13,000.00 per month when I'm 65, I'll be alittle disapointed.

But I'm planning on having more.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

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Well I would just like to add, if my retirement income is not at least 13,000.00 per month when I'm 65, I'll be alittle disapointed.

well good for you.....

assuming your house is paid for come retirement, that is a lot of money.....are you talking before or after taxes? Or are you just boasting and making things up?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Guess he shouldn't have put all his eggs in one basket....the gravy train does run dry at some point.

It's easy for us to say that now, knowing the current reality. But in the past, you worked forever at one company, putting up with minimal raises and pointy haired managers and in return you got a pension.

In the boom years of the 90s a lot of companies skipped making payments to their pensions as the stock growth 'took care of the problem.'

I don't see a nice solution to fix the past, but thinking these pilots (or any other) deserve what they're getting is lame.

[StreetScooby 5]

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as the stock growth 'took care of the problem.'

Just wait 'till stock options are being expensed. It's not going to be pretty.

We are all engines of karma