wmw999 2,147 #76 December 8, 2006 If you read further in the thread about the accident, a former paraglider from the area said that the whole sport there is rife with politics, and that reports like that might not be trustworthy. Not to say that the subject always exhibits excellent judgment, but it's not really that black-and-white. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #77 December 8, 2006 QuoteThere are non-uspa DZ out there were anything goes. In all fairness there are also non-uspa DZs out there that are perfectly safe. The DZO may choose not to be a group member for other reasons than they can't comply. I would like to point out something that I believe has been overlooked. I occasionally run across skydivers who either weren't trained properly or didn't retain the info, which is just as bad. They are both equally dangerous to themselves as well as us. It is also in our best interest to try to minimize the danger to our friends and ourselves by trying to educate the dangerous people. It doesn't usually work if you take the moral high ground and start yelling at them but that doesn't mean we can just bitch among ourselves either. You never know when the sneaky bastards might end up on a plane with you or someone you care about."... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
recovercrachead 0 #78 December 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteThere are non-uspa DZ out there were anything goes. In all fairness there are also non-uspa DZs out there that are perfectly safe. The DZO may choose not to be a group member for other reasons than they can't comply. Sorry thats what i meant to say about non-uspa dz wich I jumped at for years.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 13 #79 December 8, 2006 It seems that many newer, less-experienced jumpers want to see the USPA rules, guidelines, etc. made into laws with criminal penalties. Most older, more-experienced jumpers do not want that. My feeling (older opinion) is that skydiving has always been about freedom. Freedom in the air and freedom from over-regulation and enforcement. The basic principle is Man/Woman vs. Gravity - you jump, you have fun, you live. What could be simpler. The perceived threat from a "rogue illegal student tracking into me" or some of the other scenarios presented is, I believe, overblown. There are many ways to get hurt or killed in skydiving. Very few of these involve other people, at least in the student setting. The most likely thing that could happen in the "illegitimate jumper" scenario is that the illigitimate jumper, himself is injured or killed, through his lack of actual training. While this may be tough on the "student", especially if he burns in, I can't see that it affects the rest of us that much. The one entity who would be most affected is the DZ. That is why it is their duty to themselves to be certain that if someone goes in, they do it "legally". This means that the jumper signed a waiver and complied with their rules. Many people in many walks of life want to be cared for and protected. They want the "law" to assure them of a safe and healthy life. They want laws to keep them from hurting themselves. They want firecrackers that can't blow off their fingers if they hold them, lawnmowers that can't cut off their toes if they stick them underneath, and guns that can't kill their kids if they let them play with them. In short, they want someone to assume the responsibility of doing their thinking for them. I'm sorry that this has turned into more of a social commentary than a skydiving post, but that's where the question leads. More regulation - especially legally-binding legislative regulation is the worst thing that could ever happen to skydiving. The Law of Gravity and the principles of Charles Darwin create a perfect regulatory framework for skydiving. It's not a Barbie Tea Party, contrary to what certain marketing campaigns would have us believe. For those who need additional structure and guidelines, I understand that both Golf and Bowling offer safe alternatives. Kevin Keenan_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #80 December 8, 2006 QuoteIt seems that many newer, less-experienced jumpers want to see the USPA rules, guidelines, etc. made into laws with criminal penalties. The older, more-experienced jumpers do not want that. I hope you're not painting all of us "newer, less-experienced jumpers" with the same brush based on a single poster's opinion. Perhaps you've heard this in places other than this thread, but I think if you read this one more closely you'll see that the balance of the evidence points to newer jumpers who agree with the more experienced folks."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #81 December 8, 2006 Quote I hope you're not painting all of us "newer, less-experienced jumpers" with the same brush based on a single poster's opinion. Here here. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hexadecimal 0 #82 December 8, 2006 QuoteIts the internet, who really cares right? Judging by the amount of time you appear to spend on this message board, it would seem that you care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #83 December 8, 2006 QuoteSo if someone cuts my lines on my reserve, packs me a line over on my main and I jump it , it would follow under this catagory as well? Because to me, putting someone in the air with me , that has had no training except what he learned from a balls to the walls skydiver, and lies to me about experience , is the same as cutting my lines. Not even close to the same."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #84 December 8, 2006 QuoteIf you read further in the thread about the accident, a former paraglider from the area said that the whole sport there is rife with politics, and that reports like that might not be trustworthy. Not to say that the subject always exhibits excellent judgment, but it's not really that black-and-white. Wendy W. To be fair, I read other internet articles. The drivers for the responses are not business politics. They are responses made by family members. "Our perfect boy didn't make any mistakes, they are just haters." -type comments. Just looking at the facts. Experienced pilots don't launch with the wind at their backs in that area. Experience helps you avoid obvious risks. If someone makes an error and injures themselves, I am sorry that they were hurt. I hate to see anyone injured. If they incorrectly proclaim themselves to be an expert in this sport and then risk the life of another, that is wrong. The idea of "no harm, no foul" because the "student" was not injured is not acceptable. The purpose of ratings is to provide the best possible training for the student. Did they cover the different types of malfunctions and how to clear them? I doubt that the "instructor" even knows them. This is also not a case of an old-school non-USPA dz where the non-rated instructor has years of experience. This is irresponsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #85 December 8, 2006 QuoteKay Tauscher, owner of Peak to Peak Paragliding in Boulder, was walking her dog at Wonderland Lake near the time of the accident and spotted the two lone paragliders. "I thought 'That's weird, this is clearly not a day to fly,'" Tauscher said, noting the wind was blowing the wrong direction. "Anybody who's been through proper training knows today is not the day to fly." Paragliders launching from Wonderland Lake need winds to be moving in an easterly direction to fly safely, Tauscher said, not from the west like it was blowing Monday morning. When the wind is at a paraglider's back, it creates a condition known as a "rotor," Tauscher said, and paragliders are not engineered to fly in that "kind of air." Tauscher said there had been talk in the local paragliding circles about some younger, inexperienced paragliders launching in less than desirable conditions from Wonderland Lake, but there is no law that they must be licensed. Funny isnt this article about Calvin19? This is general to everyone, I tried to let this die because its to a point its not productive. Want to slam me because I think this is a horrible scenerio, that is fine. Want to accuse me of trying to hurt the sport, that is fine. Want to waste bandwith fighting the same thing, but using different words that is fine. Want to tell me to take up scrabble , tennis or other non-physical sports, that is fine. However , when you accuse me of being of a mind set that seperates me from the "old timers" youve gone to far. I am as close to the "old timers" as I can be. I have read their words, books, seen their struggles in this sport thru their stories. Ive read many accounts on how they made this sport what it is. Ive taken to heart what I hear, to make sure the work many died for is not in vein. We learned from the old timers, and because of them I am safer in the sky now then 20 years ago. I respect what was done to make this sport into what we see today. I also respect where this sport can go. My opinion and it will always remain, using a student to show the size of your balls is going to far. Want to learn to land a wing suit fine, want to make canopies the size of a beach towel fine, but do not take a person who has no idea the magnitude of this sport and its risks and for your own benefit put thier life and others lives at risk. Enough people died in this sport in the old days because they were making the safer alternitives. What was done here in this case was not about that. Theres a reason people died in the past for this sport, and that was to make it more accessable, safer, more enjoyable etc etc, to try to reinvent the wheel to save money is in my opinion more a disgrace to the old timers then my words. That is my opinion, I am not asking you to take it as your own but I do ask that you dont lower yourself to the level of telling me to take up tennis, etc ... if I were to take up tennis Id have to don really boring clothing and Id risk hurting my pull hand.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MyTwoCents 0 #86 December 8, 2006 QuoteI am as close to the "old timers" as I can be. I have read their words, books, seen their struggles in this sport thru their stories. Ive read many accounts on how they made this sport what it is. Ive taken to heart what I hear, to make sure the work many died for is not in vein. As close as can be? You can't be further from the truth. You've read their words and seen their struggles, but you've never made a skydive in your life! You've merely hopped out a plane. Teaching a friend with no experience how to skydive and then getting him onto a plane using a falsified logbook is one of the purest forms of human flight imaginable. Not necessarily the smartest, but definitely true to the spirit. I wish I would have had that opportunity. Thanks Lisa. Thanks for ruining skydiving for so many of us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,147 #87 December 8, 2006 QuoteTeaching a friend with no experience how to skydive and then getting him onto a plane using a falsified logbook is one of the purest forms of human flight imaginable.I sure wouldn't go that far; it's got a huge potential for danger. Since there isn't a process, procedure, or any sort of control, we have no idea of how much danger. That's the whole problem, when the sport is both risky and public. It could be that he did an awesome job of training his friend. It could be that he said "this is what you pull" and left it at that. We don't know. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MyTwoCents 0 #88 December 8, 2006 Quote...we have no idea of how much danger. That's the whole problem... It's not the problem at all, since we are not the ones making the jump. The informally trained person is. For the most part, we are not part of the equation. As long as that person has reached a certain degree of maturity, he or she should be able to decide for himself whether or not his method of training is appropriate. That touches on the core of skydiving; responsibility for the choices we make. Quotewhen the sport is both risky and public. Here you do touch on something that has some relevance. The public's perception of our sport can have an impact on our continued enjoyment of it. But that is first and foremost an issue with the public (whom we need to educate by telling them when accidents are caused by sole stupidity) and only secondary with us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #89 December 8, 2006 QuoteHowever , when you accuse me of being of a mind set that seperates me from the "old timers" youve gone to far. A while back, a lot of jump clubs were a cessna and a few experienced people. The most experienced person may have had 10 years in sport and a couple of thousand jumps. That person was the instructor and understood WHAT to teach. Such jump clubs would not let a 50-jump wonder teach a FJC. That is irresponsible and unsafe. People can kill themselves in whatever way they wish. They can be as reckless with their own life as they choose. Endangering others is a different matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #90 December 8, 2006 BASE Ethical Guidelines QuoteIf you’re very keen to learn BASE jumping right now, then pay for proper intensive instruction. If you don’t want to pay then be prepared to spend time learning with experienced jumpers. Any of that ring a bell? Either pay for proper instruction or spend time with experienced jumpers. Neither guideline was followed. That is the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #91 December 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIs it moral? I truely feel this is horrific, but its not up to me. You know, there are many people who feel the same way about us skydiving. What is so hard for you to accept about two adults choosing to take a risk? If you think it's stupid, don't do it. This is supposedly the land of the free, and I'm glad people still are free to do some things. What I feel is "horrific", is people who promote the idea of removing a freedom, because of how that freedom sits with their emotions.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lifewithoutanet 0 #92 December 8, 2006 QuoteWhat I feel is "horrific", is people who promote the idea of removing a freedom, because of how that freedom sits with their emotions. BING-fuckin'-GO. I've been watching this thread with equal parts rage and fury over some of the BS I've read, but that hits the nail on the head. -C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #93 December 9, 2006 QuoteYou can't be further from the truth. You've read their words and seen their struggles, but you've never made a skydive in your life Really? Im as close to a old timer as I personally can be because I respect them , and accept the trials and errors they fought to give me a safer sport. I look at where this sport and what it is now and I thank everyday people who pioneered it for me because without them , I wouldnt have made my first skydive. QuoteYou've merely hopped out a plane. No, actually I dont hop, I kinda just fall out. QuoteTeaching a friend with no experience how to skydive and then getting him onto a plane using a falsified logbook is one of the purest forms of human flight imaginable Let me guess your the friend that learned this way? QuoteThanks Lisa. Thanks for ruining skydiving for so many of us. Your kidding right? I single handedly ruined skydiving for many people because I started a thread based on wanting to know legallity, stated MY opinion, and continued to respond to people in a respectable way, while I get attacked on here and complimented in private (which btw is the only reason I continue becasue there are those who follow it becasue they agree)? I ruined skydiving? If I ruined skydiving for you then good, your to mentally unstable to be in the air anyways if this is how you feel.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #94 December 9, 2006 QuoteAs long as that person has reached a certain degree of maturity, he or she should be able to decide for himself whether or not his method of training is appropriate. That touches on the core of skydiving; responsibility for the choices we make. No. The person does not KNOW the risks well enough to make that call. That is like putting students out on Velo 96's. They don't know that they are a bad choice for a student canopy. We should all be responsible enough to not let those with bigger egos than skill sets make calls they are not qualified to make. A mistake hurts the whole sport, not just the person who made the mistake. People have the right to make choices, but a smart person would not make life or death choices without knowing the full risks and other options. And a guy with 100 jumps and no ratings is not qualified to enough to really guide him. Taking a guy out on an AFF jump with no training and only 100 jumps is not smart, but not illegal. Being the guy taken out is not smart, but maybe the guy didn't know the risks and blindly trusted his buddy. But having to forge a logbook should have been a clue it was a bad idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jsaxton 0 #95 December 9, 2006 Well said! When I was a kid we used to ride around in the beds of pickup trucks. OMFG my aunt should be doing life for child endangerment! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #96 December 9, 2006 edit: sorry, I party. This thread got way silly over 18 hrs. "The game's the game, baby. baby, baby, Still the same...."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MyTwoCents 0 #97 December 9, 2006 QuoteLet me guess your the friend that learned this way? No, definitely not. I got into skydiving doing a KNVVL (Dutch USPA) approved static-line course. The smallest canopy I've ever flown was a 170 loaded at 0.9. Most of my skydiving has been on Manta 220s and 260 square foot accuracy canopies. I got into BASE jumping doing two, not one, first-jump-courses, and followed up with multiple experienced mentors. I've done my fair share of stupid shit, but most BASE jumpers would say I've taken a fairly conservative and well prepared road into BASE. I also happen to the founder and maintainer of BASE WIKI. I'm all for knowledge dissemination and giving people the most information and training they can possibly get before commiting to gravity. However... QuoteYour kidding right? I single handedly ruined skydiving... No, it's not just you. It's the multitude of skydivers that come to experience it as just another pasttime like golf and bowling. The number of skydivers that actually have a clue about risk management is dwindling fast. The rest just turns on their AAD and leaves the plane for a quick rollercoaster ride. You end up with people like this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1679011;. A person jumping a small canopy (given her experience) wearing only sandals, then hurting her feet because she had to land out, on asphalt. Sad but okay in my book, until you read the kicker; she starts blaming her training and instructors. I consider this a bad thing, but I'm not so elitist to call people on it per se. After all, who am I to say what the spirit of skydiving is like? I can only have my own opinion on the matter. However, when you start referring back to the pioneers in the sport you're crossing a line. Some of the pioneers would laugh at the kind of MTV past-time our sport has become. It has nothing to do with what skydiving was originally about; to push the boundaries of human flight while the rest of the world says it's impossible. I do not know the "friend" that decided to jump without USPA training. I do know Calvin and he is a respected skydiver, climber, rope-jumper, paraglider pilot, BASE jumper and airplane pilot. He knows a thing or two about risk management. I'm also confident that his friend would admit his mistake and take full ownership, should any accident have occured. I would pick Calvin as a mentor over many of the instructors I see on my local dropzones. And I am proud that we live in a world where people have the freedom to decide which teacher may be better than others. Yes, that freedom comes at a price. Sometimes a bad teacher will find a bad student, they'll fuck it up and a person will die. That's a price I'm willing to pay for freedom. Furthermore, there is no proof in the history books that such accidents happens very often. As for the affect such incidents can have on our sport; it is rather condenscending towards the general populace to assume they don't have the intelligence to separate sheer stupidity from pilot error. I know the media likes to put a spin on stories, but most people realize that skydiving is here to stay. Come to think of it; the USPA or FAA would much sooner install laws to prohibit a free choice of canopy size, given the number of people hooking themselves into the ground. Nobody is going to lose any sleep over a freak accident because some student wasn't well prepared. Somebody once said; "...I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kkeenan 13 #98 December 9, 2006 QuoteThis thread got way silly over 18 hrs. Yeah, but LisaMarie's post count went up by, like, a zillion. That was the point of all this, right ?? She was famous there for about, what, ...15 minutes ? But, hey, we got all philososophical and shit. It was groovy. _____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #99 December 9, 2006 QuoteI do know Calvin and he is a respected skydiver, climber, rope-jumper, paraglider pilot, BASE jumper and airplane pilot. Didn't see "AFF-rated instructor" anywhere in there. Your opinion of who is "qualified" to teach? Based on...? Years of teaching skydiving? There are a couple of good courses that determine that. People need to take one before risking other peoples lives. QuoteSometimes a bad teacher will find a bad student, they'll fuck it up and a person will die. That's a price I'm willing to pay for freedom. Sweet of you to be willing to risk other peoples lives. That is probably the most ridiculous statement on the internet today. Your cheap buddy didn't want to pay for a course. Your friends aren't trailblazers, outlaws, or heroes. They aren't advancing the sport. The trailblazers already decided on teaching methods years ago. Your friend didn't take the course to find out what they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #100 December 9, 2006 QuoteQuote But when he (if anything remains) is found with a borrowed driver's license and no M endorsement of his own, he (or his estate) will be taken for any damages caused. I am just curious why you assume he didn't get his motorcycle license? I could teach someone to ride a sport bike through the cones and earn a license. Still doesn't prepare them for what the bike is capable of. Well, since it was supposed to be an analogy to the discussion at hand, not only does he not have a M endorsement, he doesn't even have signficant mileage. The odds of a newbie passing the DMV cone circus on a Busa are pretty damn low, anyway. There's a guy in the Bay Area that makes decent money lending out his just over 150cc bike so people can get the M1. The MSF alternative is a more real world test, but also more difficult for someone with 10 or 20 miles of experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 4 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kkeenan 13 #79 December 8, 2006 It seems that many newer, less-experienced jumpers want to see the USPA rules, guidelines, etc. made into laws with criminal penalties. Most older, more-experienced jumpers do not want that. My feeling (older opinion) is that skydiving has always been about freedom. Freedom in the air and freedom from over-regulation and enforcement. The basic principle is Man/Woman vs. Gravity - you jump, you have fun, you live. What could be simpler. The perceived threat from a "rogue illegal student tracking into me" or some of the other scenarios presented is, I believe, overblown. There are many ways to get hurt or killed in skydiving. Very few of these involve other people, at least in the student setting. The most likely thing that could happen in the "illegitimate jumper" scenario is that the illigitimate jumper, himself is injured or killed, through his lack of actual training. While this may be tough on the "student", especially if he burns in, I can't see that it affects the rest of us that much. The one entity who would be most affected is the DZ. That is why it is their duty to themselves to be certain that if someone goes in, they do it "legally". This means that the jumper signed a waiver and complied with their rules. Many people in many walks of life want to be cared for and protected. They want the "law" to assure them of a safe and healthy life. They want laws to keep them from hurting themselves. They want firecrackers that can't blow off their fingers if they hold them, lawnmowers that can't cut off their toes if they stick them underneath, and guns that can't kill their kids if they let them play with them. In short, they want someone to assume the responsibility of doing their thinking for them. I'm sorry that this has turned into more of a social commentary than a skydiving post, but that's where the question leads. More regulation - especially legally-binding legislative regulation is the worst thing that could ever happen to skydiving. The Law of Gravity and the principles of Charles Darwin create a perfect regulatory framework for skydiving. It's not a Barbie Tea Party, contrary to what certain marketing campaigns would have us believe. For those who need additional structure and guidelines, I understand that both Golf and Bowling offer safe alternatives. Kevin Keenan_____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #80 December 8, 2006 QuoteIt seems that many newer, less-experienced jumpers want to see the USPA rules, guidelines, etc. made into laws with criminal penalties. The older, more-experienced jumpers do not want that. I hope you're not painting all of us "newer, less-experienced jumpers" with the same brush based on a single poster's opinion. Perhaps you've heard this in places other than this thread, but I think if you read this one more closely you'll see that the balance of the evidence points to newer jumpers who agree with the more experienced folks."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #81 December 8, 2006 Quote I hope you're not painting all of us "newer, less-experienced jumpers" with the same brush based on a single poster's opinion. Here here. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hexadecimal 0 #82 December 8, 2006 QuoteIts the internet, who really cares right? Judging by the amount of time you appear to spend on this message board, it would seem that you care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #83 December 8, 2006 QuoteSo if someone cuts my lines on my reserve, packs me a line over on my main and I jump it , it would follow under this catagory as well? Because to me, putting someone in the air with me , that has had no training except what he learned from a balls to the walls skydiver, and lies to me about experience , is the same as cutting my lines. Not even close to the same."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #84 December 8, 2006 QuoteIf you read further in the thread about the accident, a former paraglider from the area said that the whole sport there is rife with politics, and that reports like that might not be trustworthy. Not to say that the subject always exhibits excellent judgment, but it's not really that black-and-white. Wendy W. To be fair, I read other internet articles. The drivers for the responses are not business politics. They are responses made by family members. "Our perfect boy didn't make any mistakes, they are just haters." -type comments. Just looking at the facts. Experienced pilots don't launch with the wind at their backs in that area. Experience helps you avoid obvious risks. If someone makes an error and injures themselves, I am sorry that they were hurt. I hate to see anyone injured. If they incorrectly proclaim themselves to be an expert in this sport and then risk the life of another, that is wrong. The idea of "no harm, no foul" because the "student" was not injured is not acceptable. The purpose of ratings is to provide the best possible training for the student. Did they cover the different types of malfunctions and how to clear them? I doubt that the "instructor" even knows them. This is also not a case of an old-school non-USPA dz where the non-rated instructor has years of experience. This is irresponsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #85 December 8, 2006 QuoteKay Tauscher, owner of Peak to Peak Paragliding in Boulder, was walking her dog at Wonderland Lake near the time of the accident and spotted the two lone paragliders. "I thought 'That's weird, this is clearly not a day to fly,'" Tauscher said, noting the wind was blowing the wrong direction. "Anybody who's been through proper training knows today is not the day to fly." Paragliders launching from Wonderland Lake need winds to be moving in an easterly direction to fly safely, Tauscher said, not from the west like it was blowing Monday morning. When the wind is at a paraglider's back, it creates a condition known as a "rotor," Tauscher said, and paragliders are not engineered to fly in that "kind of air." Tauscher said there had been talk in the local paragliding circles about some younger, inexperienced paragliders launching in less than desirable conditions from Wonderland Lake, but there is no law that they must be licensed. Funny isnt this article about Calvin19? This is general to everyone, I tried to let this die because its to a point its not productive. Want to slam me because I think this is a horrible scenerio, that is fine. Want to accuse me of trying to hurt the sport, that is fine. Want to waste bandwith fighting the same thing, but using different words that is fine. Want to tell me to take up scrabble , tennis or other non-physical sports, that is fine. However , when you accuse me of being of a mind set that seperates me from the "old timers" youve gone to far. I am as close to the "old timers" as I can be. I have read their words, books, seen their struggles in this sport thru their stories. Ive read many accounts on how they made this sport what it is. Ive taken to heart what I hear, to make sure the work many died for is not in vein. We learned from the old timers, and because of them I am safer in the sky now then 20 years ago. I respect what was done to make this sport into what we see today. I also respect where this sport can go. My opinion and it will always remain, using a student to show the size of your balls is going to far. Want to learn to land a wing suit fine, want to make canopies the size of a beach towel fine, but do not take a person who has no idea the magnitude of this sport and its risks and for your own benefit put thier life and others lives at risk. Enough people died in this sport in the old days because they were making the safer alternitives. What was done here in this case was not about that. Theres a reason people died in the past for this sport, and that was to make it more accessable, safer, more enjoyable etc etc, to try to reinvent the wheel to save money is in my opinion more a disgrace to the old timers then my words. That is my opinion, I am not asking you to take it as your own but I do ask that you dont lower yourself to the level of telling me to take up tennis, etc ... if I were to take up tennis Id have to don really boring clothing and Id risk hurting my pull hand.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #86 December 8, 2006 QuoteI am as close to the "old timers" as I can be. I have read their words, books, seen their struggles in this sport thru their stories. Ive read many accounts on how they made this sport what it is. Ive taken to heart what I hear, to make sure the work many died for is not in vein. As close as can be? You can't be further from the truth. You've read their words and seen their struggles, but you've never made a skydive in your life! You've merely hopped out a plane. Teaching a friend with no experience how to skydive and then getting him onto a plane using a falsified logbook is one of the purest forms of human flight imaginable. Not necessarily the smartest, but definitely true to the spirit. I wish I would have had that opportunity. Thanks Lisa. Thanks for ruining skydiving for so many of us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,147 #87 December 8, 2006 QuoteTeaching a friend with no experience how to skydive and then getting him onto a plane using a falsified logbook is one of the purest forms of human flight imaginable.I sure wouldn't go that far; it's got a huge potential for danger. Since there isn't a process, procedure, or any sort of control, we have no idea of how much danger. That's the whole problem, when the sport is both risky and public. It could be that he did an awesome job of training his friend. It could be that he said "this is what you pull" and left it at that. We don't know. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #88 December 8, 2006 Quote...we have no idea of how much danger. That's the whole problem... It's not the problem at all, since we are not the ones making the jump. The informally trained person is. For the most part, we are not part of the equation. As long as that person has reached a certain degree of maturity, he or she should be able to decide for himself whether or not his method of training is appropriate. That touches on the core of skydiving; responsibility for the choices we make. Quotewhen the sport is both risky and public. Here you do touch on something that has some relevance. The public's perception of our sport can have an impact on our continued enjoyment of it. But that is first and foremost an issue with the public (whom we need to educate by telling them when accidents are caused by sole stupidity) and only secondary with us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #89 December 8, 2006 QuoteHowever , when you accuse me of being of a mind set that seperates me from the "old timers" youve gone to far. A while back, a lot of jump clubs were a cessna and a few experienced people. The most experienced person may have had 10 years in sport and a couple of thousand jumps. That person was the instructor and understood WHAT to teach. Such jump clubs would not let a 50-jump wonder teach a FJC. That is irresponsible and unsafe. People can kill themselves in whatever way they wish. They can be as reckless with their own life as they choose. Endangering others is a different matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #90 December 8, 2006 BASE Ethical Guidelines QuoteIf you’re very keen to learn BASE jumping right now, then pay for proper intensive instruction. If you don’t want to pay then be prepared to spend time learning with experienced jumpers. Any of that ring a bell? Either pay for proper instruction or spend time with experienced jumpers. Neither guideline was followed. That is the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #91 December 8, 2006 QuoteQuoteIs it moral? I truely feel this is horrific, but its not up to me. You know, there are many people who feel the same way about us skydiving. What is so hard for you to accept about two adults choosing to take a risk? If you think it's stupid, don't do it. This is supposedly the land of the free, and I'm glad people still are free to do some things. What I feel is "horrific", is people who promote the idea of removing a freedom, because of how that freedom sits with their emotions.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lifewithoutanet 0 #92 December 8, 2006 QuoteWhat I feel is "horrific", is people who promote the idea of removing a freedom, because of how that freedom sits with their emotions. BING-fuckin'-GO. I've been watching this thread with equal parts rage and fury over some of the BS I've read, but that hits the nail on the head. -C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #93 December 9, 2006 QuoteYou can't be further from the truth. You've read their words and seen their struggles, but you've never made a skydive in your life Really? Im as close to a old timer as I personally can be because I respect them , and accept the trials and errors they fought to give me a safer sport. I look at where this sport and what it is now and I thank everyday people who pioneered it for me because without them , I wouldnt have made my first skydive. QuoteYou've merely hopped out a plane. No, actually I dont hop, I kinda just fall out. QuoteTeaching a friend with no experience how to skydive and then getting him onto a plane using a falsified logbook is one of the purest forms of human flight imaginable Let me guess your the friend that learned this way? QuoteThanks Lisa. Thanks for ruining skydiving for so many of us. Your kidding right? I single handedly ruined skydiving for many people because I started a thread based on wanting to know legallity, stated MY opinion, and continued to respond to people in a respectable way, while I get attacked on here and complimented in private (which btw is the only reason I continue becasue there are those who follow it becasue they agree)? I ruined skydiving? If I ruined skydiving for you then good, your to mentally unstable to be in the air anyways if this is how you feel.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #94 December 9, 2006 QuoteAs long as that person has reached a certain degree of maturity, he or she should be able to decide for himself whether or not his method of training is appropriate. That touches on the core of skydiving; responsibility for the choices we make. No. The person does not KNOW the risks well enough to make that call. That is like putting students out on Velo 96's. They don't know that they are a bad choice for a student canopy. We should all be responsible enough to not let those with bigger egos than skill sets make calls they are not qualified to make. A mistake hurts the whole sport, not just the person who made the mistake. People have the right to make choices, but a smart person would not make life or death choices without knowing the full risks and other options. And a guy with 100 jumps and no ratings is not qualified to enough to really guide him. Taking a guy out on an AFF jump with no training and only 100 jumps is not smart, but not illegal. Being the guy taken out is not smart, but maybe the guy didn't know the risks and blindly trusted his buddy. But having to forge a logbook should have been a clue it was a bad idea."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #95 December 9, 2006 Well said! When I was a kid we used to ride around in the beds of pickup trucks. OMFG my aunt should be doing life for child endangerment! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #96 December 9, 2006 edit: sorry, I party. This thread got way silly over 18 hrs. "The game's the game, baby. baby, baby, Still the same...."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #97 December 9, 2006 QuoteLet me guess your the friend that learned this way? No, definitely not. I got into skydiving doing a KNVVL (Dutch USPA) approved static-line course. The smallest canopy I've ever flown was a 170 loaded at 0.9. Most of my skydiving has been on Manta 220s and 260 square foot accuracy canopies. I got into BASE jumping doing two, not one, first-jump-courses, and followed up with multiple experienced mentors. I've done my fair share of stupid shit, but most BASE jumpers would say I've taken a fairly conservative and well prepared road into BASE. I also happen to the founder and maintainer of BASE WIKI. I'm all for knowledge dissemination and giving people the most information and training they can possibly get before commiting to gravity. However... QuoteYour kidding right? I single handedly ruined skydiving... No, it's not just you. It's the multitude of skydivers that come to experience it as just another pasttime like golf and bowling. The number of skydivers that actually have a clue about risk management is dwindling fast. The rest just turns on their AAD and leaves the plane for a quick rollercoaster ride. You end up with people like this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1679011;. A person jumping a small canopy (given her experience) wearing only sandals, then hurting her feet because she had to land out, on asphalt. Sad but okay in my book, until you read the kicker; she starts blaming her training and instructors. I consider this a bad thing, but I'm not so elitist to call people on it per se. After all, who am I to say what the spirit of skydiving is like? I can only have my own opinion on the matter. However, when you start referring back to the pioneers in the sport you're crossing a line. Some of the pioneers would laugh at the kind of MTV past-time our sport has become. It has nothing to do with what skydiving was originally about; to push the boundaries of human flight while the rest of the world says it's impossible. I do not know the "friend" that decided to jump without USPA training. I do know Calvin and he is a respected skydiver, climber, rope-jumper, paraglider pilot, BASE jumper and airplane pilot. He knows a thing or two about risk management. I'm also confident that his friend would admit his mistake and take full ownership, should any accident have occured. I would pick Calvin as a mentor over many of the instructors I see on my local dropzones. And I am proud that we live in a world where people have the freedom to decide which teacher may be better than others. Yes, that freedom comes at a price. Sometimes a bad teacher will find a bad student, they'll fuck it up and a person will die. That's a price I'm willing to pay for freedom. Furthermore, there is no proof in the history books that such accidents happens very often. As for the affect such incidents can have on our sport; it is rather condenscending towards the general populace to assume they don't have the intelligence to separate sheer stupidity from pilot error. I know the media likes to put a spin on stories, but most people realize that skydiving is here to stay. Come to think of it; the USPA or FAA would much sooner install laws to prohibit a free choice of canopy size, given the number of people hooking themselves into the ground. Nobody is going to lose any sleep over a freak accident because some student wasn't well prepared. Somebody once said; "...I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkeenan 13 #98 December 9, 2006 QuoteThis thread got way silly over 18 hrs. Yeah, but LisaMarie's post count went up by, like, a zillion. That was the point of all this, right ?? She was famous there for about, what, ...15 minutes ? But, hey, we got all philososophical and shit. It was groovy. _____________________________________ Dude, you are so awesome... Can I be on your ash jump ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #99 December 9, 2006 QuoteI do know Calvin and he is a respected skydiver, climber, rope-jumper, paraglider pilot, BASE jumper and airplane pilot. Didn't see "AFF-rated instructor" anywhere in there. Your opinion of who is "qualified" to teach? Based on...? Years of teaching skydiving? There are a couple of good courses that determine that. People need to take one before risking other peoples lives. QuoteSometimes a bad teacher will find a bad student, they'll fuck it up and a person will die. That's a price I'm willing to pay for freedom. Sweet of you to be willing to risk other peoples lives. That is probably the most ridiculous statement on the internet today. Your cheap buddy didn't want to pay for a course. Your friends aren't trailblazers, outlaws, or heroes. They aren't advancing the sport. The trailblazers already decided on teaching methods years ago. Your friend didn't take the course to find out what they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #100 December 9, 2006 QuoteQuote But when he (if anything remains) is found with a borrowed driver's license and no M endorsement of his own, he (or his estate) will be taken for any damages caused. I am just curious why you assume he didn't get his motorcycle license? I could teach someone to ride a sport bike through the cones and earn a license. Still doesn't prepare them for what the bike is capable of. Well, since it was supposed to be an analogy to the discussion at hand, not only does he not have a M endorsement, he doesn't even have signficant mileage. The odds of a newbie passing the DMV cone circus on a Busa are pretty damn low, anyway. There's a guy in the Bay Area that makes decent money lending out his just over 150cc bike so people can get the M1. The MSF alternative is a more real world test, but also more difficult for someone with 10 or 20 miles of experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
