tdog 0 #26 December 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf it ain't broken, don't fix it. Okay. Theres really nothing I can say, this apperently is an accepted practice and I am glad I found it out now, that way I am even more aware. Im aware now, thanks all. Accepted - no. Legal - yes... Don't you think DZOs and others will read the post and the word will get out? Don't you think the next time he shows up to a DZ with a friend, the DZ will call the DZs shown in the logbook and ask, "Is this a jumper of yours?" It is a small world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #27 December 7, 2006 Quote Ill get flamed for this, but I think there should be laws about our instruction. Were not playing scrabble. The last thing we need is MORE government regulation.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #28 December 7, 2006 QuoteIt is also posted in the SL vs AFF thread. Completely legal. As I wrote there, no, it's not 'completely legal.' Fraud isn't legal. There was a misrepresentation in the waiver (contract) on the experience, and in the USPA membership/insurance that has no validity. Were there some sort of accident, any other jumper could win a civil suit in a heartbeat (and this might be a rare time where the community would support the litigation). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #29 December 7, 2006 Ill get flamed for this, but I think there should be laws about our instruction. Were not playing scrabble. Lisa, you've been around here long enough to know that we know you're real people, we're not gonna flame you. And no, we're not playing scrabble either, the situation you're describing is really wrong. This is one of the reasons USPA has affiliated dropzones that at least try their best to adhere to USPA's Basic Safety Regulations and Safety & Training programs. When people ask me what to look for, I tell them for a minimum to look for USPA affiliation and some documentation that their staff holds USPA ratings. It's sort of like asking somebody to show you a driver's license. Having a driver's license doesn't mean they're a good driver, but it does mean they at least met some minimums to get a license. And then again, believe it or not, there are some excellent jump operations that are NOT USPA affiliates, notably the Parachute Center in Lodi, CA, which has an excellent reputation, to name just one. But by and large, people should look for USPA and run to the nearest exit if they can't find it, because without USPA they don't know what they're getting. But laws ? NO, never ! All you have to do is take a look around at what a mess they've made of the rest of this country, do you really want those same lecherous fatass Congresswhatevers running your dropzone as well ? Because I'll tell you what they'll do, they'll shut you down flat. Because of National Security, because it's for your own good, and because they've heard rumors about drug use at some dropzones. And because some developer wants to sprout another strip mall on the property. If it ever gets to that, then God and the Second Amendment help us all. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #27 December 7, 2006 Quote Ill get flamed for this, but I think there should be laws about our instruction. Were not playing scrabble. The last thing we need is MORE government regulation.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #28 December 7, 2006 QuoteIt is also posted in the SL vs AFF thread. Completely legal. As I wrote there, no, it's not 'completely legal.' Fraud isn't legal. There was a misrepresentation in the waiver (contract) on the experience, and in the USPA membership/insurance that has no validity. Were there some sort of accident, any other jumper could win a civil suit in a heartbeat (and this might be a rare time where the community would support the litigation). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #29 December 7, 2006 Ill get flamed for this, but I think there should be laws about our instruction. Were not playing scrabble. Lisa, you've been around here long enough to know that we know you're real people, we're not gonna flame you. And no, we're not playing scrabble either, the situation you're describing is really wrong. This is one of the reasons USPA has affiliated dropzones that at least try their best to adhere to USPA's Basic Safety Regulations and Safety & Training programs. When people ask me what to look for, I tell them for a minimum to look for USPA affiliation and some documentation that their staff holds USPA ratings. It's sort of like asking somebody to show you a driver's license. Having a driver's license doesn't mean they're a good driver, but it does mean they at least met some minimums to get a license. And then again, believe it or not, there are some excellent jump operations that are NOT USPA affiliates, notably the Parachute Center in Lodi, CA, which has an excellent reputation, to name just one. But by and large, people should look for USPA and run to the nearest exit if they can't find it, because without USPA they don't know what they're getting. But laws ? NO, never ! All you have to do is take a look around at what a mess they've made of the rest of this country, do you really want those same lecherous fatass Congresswhatevers running your dropzone as well ? Because I'll tell you what they'll do, they'll shut you down flat. Because of National Security, because it's for your own good, and because they've heard rumors about drug use at some dropzones. And because some developer wants to sprout another strip mall on the property. If it ever gets to that, then God and the Second Amendment help us all. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #30 December 7, 2006 It's sort of like asking somebody to show you a driver's license. Having a driver's license doesn't mean they're a good driver, but it does mean they at least met some minimums to get a license.Quote I agree on so many levels. Hell I keep my USPA card with my DL because I just assumed when I manifest I have to prove who I am, with my logbook, with my USPA affiliation and insurance and my DL to prove the two other items are mine. I guess I am just shocked that this happened. It makes me wonder how many others have gotten away with this. This is my life on the line for others poor and proven stupidity. My life is important to me, becomes more so every day and with every jump. Everyone who skirts the system, and doesnt give a true representation of their abilitys or lack there of is a direct threat to mine and my friends safety. Its important to me to know who I jump with, their history, and its just as important to me that they know mine. This is our lives and our friends lives we are talking about. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a mole hill but theres enough ways for me to die in the air and on the ground without others misleading themselves and adding to that. But laws ? NO, never ! All you have to do is take a look around at what a mess they've made of the rest of this country, do you really want those same lecherous fatass Congresswhatevers running your dropzone as well ? Because I'll telol you what they'll do, they'll shut you down flat. Because of National Security, because it's for your won good, and because they've heard rumors about drug use at some dropzones. And because some developer wants to sprout another strip mall on the property. If it ever gets to that, then God and the Second Amendment help us all.*** I guess I see what you are saying. I also see that theres nothing to be done really except hope that his darwin award doesnt happen to bring me down , or my friends.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #31 December 7, 2006 QuoteShow me from the incident reports, who's life that would have saved... Lee Wellington Perry, Sr.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #32 December 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteShow me from the incident reports, who's life that would have saved... Lee Wellington Perry, Sr. Nope - with all due respect - this does not count. Why, 1) Because the DZO was put in jail for homicide - proving there were already laws in place - so the existing laws did not save a life, so new laws would not have, and 2) Because the DZO gave equipment that he knew was defective - which is a whole different level of negligence than an "instructor" using an alternate training method that is not formally approved by a trade organization. Close... and a compelling story... but the guy got charged with Homicide - so I don't believe any new laws would have helped - or are needed, since existing laws worked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
icevideot 0 #33 December 7, 2006 QuoteOh, you'll love the program the Air Force does... In a lawsuit type scenario, do you think the USPA or skydivers as a collective would be treated the same as the Air Force? In the Marine Corps, the one unforgivable sin was hesitation so we learned not to. That is a different mindset than I usually see in my skydiving students. Training methods have to be adapted accordingly. I know the Air Force is a lot more laid back but it still isn't viewed as an unnecessary leisure activity the way skydiving should be. I believe that as bogged down as the bureaucracy is, they would likely form a committee to see how many people are effected by their rulings and then treat them accordingly. We are a small group and our sport could easily be legislated out of existence. Increased insurance requirements alone could do it. Exactly why do you suppose many life insurance policies now cover suicide (as long as you are vested) but still won't pay in the event of skydiving or rock climbing or a few other activities?"... this ain't a Nerf world." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mostly_Harmless 0 #34 December 7, 2006 QuoteOh, you'll love the program the Air Force does... Approx 30-40 hours training on the ground teaching how to skydive, packing etc then a solo unassited freefall from 8500 feet if I remember right. Its Sink or Swim for the cadets with no one there to save them from the first step out the door. I kinda like the program and have heard great things from some AF officers that took it. According to my friend who is an Airforce rigger, the Airforce does something very similar to our AFF which includes doing there first jump with an instructor._________________________________________ www.myspace.com/termvelocity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #35 December 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteOh, you'll love the program the Air Force does... Approx 30-40 hours training on the ground teaching how to skydive, packing etc then a solo unassited freefall from 8500 feet if I remember right. Its Sink or Swim for the cadets with no one there to save them from the first step out the door. I kinda like the program and have heard great things from some AF officers that took it. According to my friend who is an Airforce rigger, the Airforce does something very similar to our AFF which includes doing there first jump with an instructor. The program at the Academy which many students go thru... Nope, solo! The AM490 Program. A program of 5 jumps. Intense ground school. Like a week long - and the students have to memorize procedures word for word. They have to recite the word for word procedures with accuracy while fellow students yell at them, put leaf blowers in their face, and jump on them in the training harness. Followed by the "hop-n-pops" - which are all done with solo student freefall, with solo student deployment. The deployment is on a ripcord on the front of the rig, and the reserve is operated by a SOS system. The Main has an FXC. The reserve has an AAD. The whole jump is scored from the ground with ground to sky video. If the jump scores an unsatisfactory (unstable, etc) they are eventually kicked out of the program. They have to deploy within a specific window of time. A lot of the cadets go thru the 490 program - but if they are accepted to Wings of Blue then they go thru something more like AFF. The 490 program is not designed to train skydivers, but to train character - so after they are done, they are done unless they make it to the team. I get a lot of 490 students in the FJC I teach - and they, even years after the 490 program, will recite their controllability check "shape, spin, speed, look for other jumpers..." - or how to get out of line twists "Separate risers, bicycle out" - or how to fly the canopy, with precision that is very impressive... Unfortunately they also have great precision on holding on to the ripcord - so we have to break that muscle memory - and teach them a new hand signal which means "let go" because they like to hold onto the pilot chute so they don't get punnished. But the system is proven both statistically and over time. I don't think it is fair to even think of it in this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #36 December 7, 2006 Quoteso I don't believe any new laws would have helped - or are needed, since existing laws worked. You asked who would (could) have been saved. The exisiting laws worked only in so much as the were used to prosecute wrong doing, they did not prevent it. Mayfield had his instructor ratings suspended a month before; if it was illegal to teach without ratings then maybe he wouldn't have taught/dispatched or somebody else might have reported him, preventing him from doing so.Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #37 December 7, 2006 LisaMarie, a few points: 1) This does happen with some regularity. I can think of three instances I've seen myself. 2) I think your best recourse when you see this happen is to make sure other people know where it's going on. That way they can get the word out when a DZ is doing something dangerous or stupid. 3) One of the reasons USPA does a decent job of maintaining training standards is that they are NOT the government. The government is glacially slow; it took them ten years and hundreds of thousands of tandem jumps before they even recognized tandem jumping as a valid method of parachuting. It would suck to hand skydiving instruction over to the government, and then have them require everyone do static line jumps with round parachutes before they are allowed to move on to squares and freefall. (Or equivalent silly ancient rules.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miami 0 #38 December 7, 2006 AM-490 they get 35 hours of ground school, and they can be booted from the program if they fail to meet the objectives of the ground school. They all do 5 jumps (unless removed before hand due to poor performance) from 4500 feet, all jumps are debriefed with ground to air video and retraining is accomplished after every jump, if needed. The rigs are all equipped with FXC's on the mains (set for 2500 feet) and Cypres' on the reserves (expert). If a class drops too many ripcords they all get to do a fod walk on the airfield to find them...and no one likes doing a fod walk. If they apply for and are accepted to the Wings of Blue program they get 10-15 minutes of tunnel time and go through a modified AFF program. QuoteI get a lot of 490 students in the FJC I teach - and they, even years after the 490 program, will recite their controllability check "shape, spin, speed, look for other jumpers..." - or how to get out of line twists "Separate risers, bicycle out" - or how to fly the canopy, with precision that is very impressive... Unfortunately they also have great precision on holding on to the ripcord - so we have to break that muscle memory - and teach them a new hand signal which means "let go" because they like to hold onto the pilot chute so they don't fail. They are a joy to teach, too...rarely is there a group that is more enthusiastic about learning to skydive, and it shows with their dedication to the program...both while they are going through it and later when they are the ones teaching it to the next generation of 490 students.Miami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #39 December 7, 2006 Quote They are a joy to teach, too...rarely is there a group that is more enthusiastic about learning to skydive, and it shows with their dedication to the program.... Yes, I am doing 4way with some 490 grads this weekend. One 490 grad went thru civilian AFF... After AFF, on his second "coach jump" I and another AFFI jumped with him. We turned 19 points on a 4 formation/point dive - with the "student" having the outfacing moves on the phalanx. The program is great because they learn how to apply ground work to the actual sky with precision - so when you say, "wait for this key, or cross reference to this person" - they do it in the sky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #40 December 7, 2006 You do not want the FAA to get involved with regulating skydiving any more than they have now. What the jumper did was not illegal. Smart, no. But not illegal. But some people will not listen and no amount of bitching will make them listen. They will do as they please. So this person would most likely have done it if it was illegal. So all you will do is hurt people who already follow the BSR's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #41 December 7, 2006 QuoteAccording to my friend who is an Airforce rigger, the Airforce does something very similar to our AFF which includes doing there first jump with an instructor. I just spent a week working with the Airforce Academy RW teams. They get a FJC taught by Sr. Cadets, then do solo skydives for 5 jumps. They do not jump with an instructor."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahegeman 0 #42 December 7, 2006 I'm going to guess it IS illegal, based on perpetating fraud against the business that provided the lift service. You can't jump anywhere without telling the DZ how much experience you have. They lied to them while entering into a business arrangement with a faked logbook, and no doubt lying on the waiver.--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #43 December 7, 2006 QuoteI'm going to guess it IS illegal, based on perpetating fraud against the business that provided the lift service. You can't jump anywhere without telling the DZ how much experience you have. They lied to them while entering into a business arrangement with a faked logbook, and no doubt lying on the waiver. That is a civil issue, not a criminal one. I don't agree with making laws to fix an almost non existent problem. If it was a big issue we would be reading about it frequently in the incidents forum wouldn't we?"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #44 December 7, 2006 >They lied to them while entering into a business arrangement with a >faked logbook, and no doubt lying on the waiver. Hmm. It happened to us; a guy showed up with his girlfriend and a fake logbook. No one considered "filing charges" since all we could get him for was a fake logbook, which is not a legal document. I think you'd be on shaky legal ground unless he refused to pay or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KindredSpirit 0 #45 December 7, 2006 I agree with you, Lisa. It's shameful. If skydiving is self-regulated then someone needs to 'regulate' these jokers with a slap upside the head. "Kicking gravity's ass since 2003!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahegeman 0 #46 December 7, 2006 I'm no lawyer, but using misrepresentation to gain something of value (a jump) without properly paying for it ($20+ lift ticket instead of a $200+ AFF jump) sounds like larceny by trick to me. But I could easily be wrong, and I doubt anyone would actually pursue this. It was just a thought.--------------------------------------------------------------- There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness'. --Dave Barry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #47 December 7, 2006 QuoteThat is a civil issue, not a criminal one. So would it become criminal when either of the following happens? A. The "student" doesnt pull because he gets clustered fucked and he craters B. The "student" who tracking for the first time tracks into ME and takes my legs off. After all I am not aware of his actual lack of experience and he in essance risked my life by lying C. The student who is not properly trained exits the wrong way and damages the plane When does it go from civil to criminal because I am sure theres a line and in this "self regulating" sport, it only takes one idiot to screw a dropzone up. Just one. If its an almost non-exisitent promblem, it still is a problem. The perticular person that posted about this has had SEVERAL injuries because of his jumping, which so have I but Im not out trying to train people and forge logbooks. So wheres the line? Ive had a few pm's from others with similar experience as me, claiming Im not rowing this boat alone and thats comforting, but at the same time I have in this thread several that say yes its stupid but no its not big enough to do anything about. Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,476 #48 December 7, 2006 >So would it become criminal when either of the following happens? Nope. Because there are no federal/state/local requirements for USPA-endorsed training - and people sign waivers saying they know all that stuff can happen, and that they have no expectation that they will receive training to any specific standard. >it only takes one idiot to screw a dropzone up. Just one. Agreed. Which is a good reason to let the DZ deal with such issues. >but at the same time I have in this thread several that say yes its >stupid but no its not big enough to do anything about. I think you _should_ do something about it. Identify the drop zone where it happens and talk to the DZO about it. If he gives you grief, go public and make sure everyone knows which DZ it is. They may then lose most of their experienced jumper base - which solves problem B at least. And once experienced jumpers go, new starts will drop off as well, since most DZ's get a lot of business from their jumper base. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 563 #49 December 7, 2006 As long as USPA KEEPS THE FATALITY RATE LOW, the Feds prefer not to have a direct hand in regulating skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,175 #50 December 7, 2006 LM, there isn't always a clear line in life. While this seems reasonably unequivocally rulebreaking, much in life is only improved by breaking the rules, and in this case the rules are of good sense and commonly-held USPA ones, not those of physics or the government. Is this a good idea? Nope. But how long to wait before stomping hard? If the system is generally working, let it keep working. Getting a single bad congressman doesn't mean we scrap elections, we just wait until the next election and get a new one, or put that one in jail if it's bad enough. There isn't always a specific law, and that's a good thing. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
