Teri Schiavo Execution in Florida

[EBSB52 0]

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>It is different because despite her lack of brain activity, she looks
>awake and aware even though she is not...

I agree that it seems different. She looks different than most people who have no brain activity, and thus we want to believe she's really OK. But in reality it is no different. She is in a coma with her eyes open and her brainstem working; all the things that made her a person are still gone.

I think one of the tragedies of this is that there are people out there who are telling whatever lies they can to "win". There are people saying she's fine, that she can talk and laugh and eat. They know it's not true, but if they can get enough people to believe, they can win - Teri and her husband be damned. And that means that well-meaning people, people who would not question the decision to terminate life support on a brain-dead relative, support the opposite position because of what they've been told.

>No, I would make him well aware of the fact that her life is ending,
> and his seems to be beginning anew.

He has had 15 years to realize that. That's longer than I've known my wife, most of my friends, heck - that's longer than I've known any skydiver, period. His life without her is not beginning anew, it's been going on for 15 years.

It would have been the easiest thing in the world for him to divorce her, to get her out of his life. Instead he has hung on, fighting battle after battle to fulfill her final wishes. And I admire him for that. I am lucky to have a wife that would fight for me in that way.

>On the news earlier today, I heard a rather wise suggestion: sit
> the "husband" or Micheal Shiavo and Terri's parents in a room and
>have them figure it out...

Again, I think that's a great idea, but they've had 15 years to do that. You can raise a kid in 15 years, and if you can't agree on treatment of a woman whose condition has not changed in that time, you never will.

>Micheal Shiavo might have alterior motives for wanting his wife to
>die instead of getting a divorce...

And her parents may be deranged enough to want the body of their daughter kept alive so they don't have to deal with her death, so it's easier on them emotionally. But neither of us really know what's going on there, do we?

I agree that it seems different. She looks different than most people who have no brain activity, and thus we want to believe she's really OK. But in reality it is no different. She is in a coma with her eyes open and her brainstem working; all the things that made her a person are still gone.

To take it to the next level we could cite people with frontal lobotomies. They are fully functional, buttheir frontal lobes have been 'scrambled' so their personality is dead. There are many different levels of vegetablism, but any are just as devastating as the others in regard to the person being dead.

I think one of the tragedies of this is that there are people out there who are telling whatever lies they can to "win". There are people saying she's fine, that she can talk and laugh and eat. They know it's not true, but if they can get enough people to believe, they can win - Teri and her husband be damned. And that means that well-meaning people, people who would not question the decision to terminate life support on a brain-dead relative, support the opposite position because of what they've been told.

Ya, and one of rhe tragedies that I see is that the same schoool of folks that want to keep Terri alive are often the same ones wanting to fry people on circumstantial evidence withpout hearing the possibilities that a few of the people might be innocent.

>On the news earlier today, I heard a rather wise suggestion: sit
> the "husband" or Micheal Shiavo and Terri's parents in a room and
>have them figure it out...


Mediation works with entities that can find a middle, but there is no middle here - life vs death. They could agree to 2 more years, but then the family would be wanting for more at that time.

And her parents may be deranged enough to want the body of their daughter kept alive so they don't have to deal with her death, so it's easier on them emotionally. But neither of us really know what's going on there, do we?

That's basically it in a nutshell, nothing malicious, just the natural instinct of not wanting to watch your kids die b4 you.

[EBSB52 0]

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Micheal Shiavo might have alterior motives for wanting his wife to die instead of getting a divorce...though that is sickening and terrible to think about, I think if enough money is on the line, he would do what he wanted to keep it...

What a sad cynical thing to say. I can't imagine any amount of money would be worth the torment and agony he's gone though for the last 15 years.

Almost as if the other side of the argument is shifting blame from the drunk driver to the hubby here.

Truth is, the drunk driver got off easy with whatever he/she got. The law provides for the, "year and a day" rule in cases like this. WHat it says is that of a person dies from an injury like this 1 year and 1 day or less from the date of the injury, the death is chargeable to that defendant. Since her body was clinically alive at that point he probably was charged with aggr assault.

[Ron 7]

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Exactly, and on a related note, a maggot like Bush that rejected not 1 death warrant while governor of Texas, investigated maybe 1 or 2 at most, what's with this, "err onthe side of life" total maggot bullshit?

#1. You lose when you start ranting and calling folks names. Makes you look bad.

#2. There is a BIG difference between a CRIMINAL and someone in a PVS. One made a choice to comit a crime bad enough that it carried a death penalty. One is just unlucky as hell (BTW I am all for pulling the plug on Terri.)

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Why? Florida is part of the US gov - remeber 2000?

It is very funny you guys keep cryinga bout 2000. It was legal, recount after recount said so...Also he kicked Kerry's ass in the next election. One would think that if so many hated Bush he would have lost.

Get over it.

In your favorite groups words "Moveon"

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"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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[Ron 7]

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Almost as if the other side of the argument is shifting blame from the drunk driver to the hubby here.

What drunk Driver?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mailin 0]

Teri is not the victim of a drunk driving accident - she is a victim of irreversible brain damage due to a cardiac arrest suffered many years ago.


Jen

Arianna Frances

[EBSB52 0]

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Almost as if the other side of the argument is shifting blame from the drunk driver to the hubby here.

What drunk Driver?

Although the source of her injury is absolutely irrelevant with this issue, I though it was as a result of a car accident caused by a drunk driver.

Anywho, insert cardiac anomoly where drunk driver is and then answer that; same point.

[Ron 7]

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Although the source of her injury is absolutely irrelevant with this issue, I though it was as a result of a car accident caused by a drunk driver.

Anywho, insert cardiac anomoly where drunk driver is and then answer that; same point.

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Almost as if the other side of the argument is shifting blame from the drunk driver to the hubby here.

Truth is, the drunk driver got off easy with whatever he/she got. The law provides for the, "year and a day" rule in cases like this. WHat it says is that of a person dies from an injury like this 1 year and 1 day or less from the date of the injury, the death is chargeable to that defendant. Since her body was clinically alive at that point he probably was charged with aggr assault.

I don't see a question. I see a rant from someone who didn't know what the topic was....Maybe you could re-ask the question and how it relates to this case?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[EBSB52 0]

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Exactly, and on a related note, a maggot like Bush that rejected not 1 death warrant while governor of Texas, investigated maybe 1 or 2 at most, what's with this, "err onthe side of life" total maggot bullshit?

#1. You lose when you start ranting and calling folks names. Makes you look bad.

#2. There is a BIG difference between a CRIMINAL and someone in a PVS. One made a choice to comit a crime bad enough that it carried a death penalty. One is just unlucky as hell (BTW I am all for pulling the plug on Terri.)

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Why? Florida is part of the US gov - remeber 2000?

It is very funny you guys keep cryinga bout 2000. It was legal, recount after recount said so...Also he kicked Kerry's ass in the next election. One would think that if so many hated Bush he would have lost.

Get over it.

In your favorite groups words "Moveon"

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#1. You lose when you start ranting and calling folks names. Makes you look bad.

So you mean my point is invalid when I insert the word, "maggot" in there? Would the point be valid without that word? Come on, don't get distracted by semantics. That word has zero to do with the validity of the point.

#2. There is a BIG difference between a CRIMINAL and someone in a PVS. One made a choice to comit a crime bad enough that it carried a death penalty. One is just unlucky as hell (BTW I am all for pulling the plug on Terri.)


You make the assumption that ALL convicted people are guilty. You make the assumption that we have never and will never execute innocent people. WHat I wrote was that Bush investigated 1 or 2 of the death warrants he signed, while never having rejected even one of them.

So my point was and still is:

Exactly, and on a related note, Bush rejected not 1 death warrant while governor of Texas, investigated maybe 1 or 2 at most, what's with this, "err onthe side of life" bullshit?

I even cleaned it up for you so you could read it without the distraction. The question is purely rhetotical; point is, Bush frys em w/o caring about erring on the side of life. Convictions from coiunty courthouses are often flawed, so to rely solely on these as always valid and sign off is asking for dead innocent people, zero attention to error and the side of life.

Furthermore, with the 'err on the side of life' crap, that means Terri and other vegetables like her would never be allowed to die. So how does that work with Bush's tightening of the social welfare belt?

See, Bush and the current admin are full of contradictions.

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[Ron 7]

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So you mean my point is invalid when I insert the word, "maggot" in there?

No, but your bias is so strong it shows that there would be no point in discussing anything with you since Bush=Bad in your eyes.

I will admit that I wanted Bush to stay out of this issue. I am not sure you could say anything good about Bush....so what is the point in discussion when your bias is so strong?

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You make the assumption that ALL convicted people are guilty

And you make the assumption that the criminals on death row are innocent. They *might* be innocent, but once we have proven to a jury that they are quilty then the law allows for the exicution of them.

You issues here are Bush and the Death Penalty, not anything to do with Terri (Who you clearly know nothing about). So your argument is weak.

You are just looking for ANOTHER way to bash Bush. As evidenced by your non-sequitor "2000 elections" line. The 2000 election (which was shown to be legal) has nothing to do with any of this. It was a weak attempt to argue and slam Bush.

You can (Or even know) anything about this case other than it is another opportunity to let your bias and hatred show.

I would GLADLEY discuss this issue if you know what the issue was and could stay on topic.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tigra 0]

I believe I read that Michael Schiavo HAS been at his wife's side since they removed the feeding tube.

Also, if I am not mistaken, someone did offer him a great deal of money to relinquish custody to her parents. He turned it down. I believe he also had an opportunity to divorce her which he also turned down. As far as I know he has nothing to gain financially from this- most of the money won from previus mal practice suits has gone towards her care. I don't even want to guess what this is costing both sides in legal fees. Its unfortunate that its come down to this and that the husband and familiy can't come to any agreement about what is best for Terri. Because this should always have been a family matter.

Here's one thing that really struck me though. This is a woman who was systematically killing herself with bulemia and her present condition is a direct result of that. To me, it seems like that sort of nullifies the religious argument (that devout Catholics don't believe in suicide) since she her own self destructive tendencies put her in this condition. The real tragedy is that her bulemia wasn't diagnosed and treated BEFORE it damaged her brain beyond repair.

[jakee 1,280]

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And you make the assumption that the criminals on death row are innocent. They *might* be innocent, but once we have proven to a jury that they are quilty then the law allows for the exicution of them.

I don't think EBSB52 is arguing that all criminals on death row are innocent, but that some criminals on death row are innocent and, logical progression, some innocent people get executed. Is that 'erring on the side of life'? Is it worth it for the sake of revenge against the people that are guilty?

Anyway thats about as off topic as it gets so I'll stop here.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[justinb138 0]

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That word has zero to do with the validity of the point.

Then why did you feel you needed to throw in in there?

[tsisson 0]

I don't post alot, but lurk often...I can only comment on what I would do or feel if involved in the situation the Schiavo family is in...

Personally, if I don't care what my family does with my body if I were to become braindead...as long as it brings them some degree of peace, whether that be keeping my body alive...or letting it die. I wouldn't want them fighting over it though, therefore...the lesson I'm learning about this is to discuss this subject with my loved ones.

For me, I believe that my spirit resides in my mind...when my mind goes, my spirit is free.

[RoadRash 0]

If what you say is true, and from the A&E documentary that was played last night, the money from malpractice suits have not gone towards her care. And how do you justify statements like "When's the bitch going to die?" or "It's taking too long."

So Micheal Shiavo is sitting by her watching her die...Why did he decide after 9 years of having her attached to tubes and whatnot that finally this was her true wish?

Does Micheal Shiavo have his fiancee and children sitting next to him while he starves his first wife? I sure hope not...You may call me cynical...but after you have seen someone steal from someone else who was on a feeding tube and dependent on people for your life...that tends to make you cynical...Sorry, but I have read far too much about this Shiavo character...

BTW...yes, she had bulimia nervosa...not a drunk driver hit her...and yes, this condition went unchecked until the heart attack...Guess it's rather ironic that she is being starved to death...

~R+R...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...

[RoadRash 0]

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But neither of us really know what's going on there, do we?

I just read this, and thanks...I think that is the best quote to describe both sides of the issue outside of the family...With that...I'll leave the vultures to pick at the remaining meat...

~R+R...

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...

[justinb138 0]

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If what you say is true, and from the A&E documentary that was played last night, the money from malpractice suits have not gone towards her care. And how do you justify statements like "When's the bitch going to die?" or "It's taking too long."

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

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So Micheal Shiavo is sitting by her watching her die...Why did he decide after 9 years of having her attached to tubes and whatnot that finally this was her true wish?

He did everything he could for 8 years to try and help her. Nothing worked. He's been involved in legal battles with the family since then.

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Sorry, but I have read far too much about this Shiavo character...

I don't know where you read it from, but I question it's accuracy. Please post links to what you have read if possible, as I'd like to read it myself.

[billvon 2,476]

>So Micheal Shiavo is sitting by her watching her die...Why did he decide
> after 9 years of having her attached to tubes and whatnot that finally this
> was her true wish?

Perhaps he knew her wish from the beginning, but wanted to make absolutely sure she could not recover before he performed her final wish. Which would seem like a good call. Can you imagine what people would have said about him if he'd been pushing for this six months after she lost brain function?

>Sorry, but I have read far too much about this Shiavo character...

Don't believe everything you read. Just look at what people out there write about Bush. Either he's the antichrist or he's the greatest thing since sliced bread; the truth is probably somewhere in between. But moderate views don't sell newspapers or advertising slots on "shocking expose" news shows.

[chuckbrown 0]

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Sorry, but I have read far too much about this Shiavo character...
~R+R...

Glen Beck's radio program had a couple of callers who witnessed first hand about the antics of this Schiavo character. The one said that Schiavo tried to recruit him into a male prostitution ring when he was in the 9th grade, and the other said he was in the same maternity ward with Schiavo (as new-borns)and saw him crawl out of his bassinette and smother a baby in the next bassinette.

Seriously, why shouldn't Schiavo get on with his life? He's known for 15 years that his wife will never recover. And she never will no matter what the Cheshire Quack says. If I'm ever like that, my SO better get on with her life because we're all gonna die and we better make the best of life while we can.

As for Schiavo's credibility and motives, I think the courts have probably seen a few more cases like this than any of us and are in a much better position to make the decisions they've made. And with much less emotion.

This is a sad case of one part of the family that wants to move on and another part of the family that can't let go of their daughter and have an obvious hatred of their son-in-law.

[billvon 2,476]

I find it really sad how many politicians are using this poor woman to advance their agendas.

Frist then:
-----------------------------
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist attacked Sen. John Edwards on Tuesday over a comment the Democratic vice presidential candidate made regarding actor Christopher Reeve.

Edwards said Reeve, who died Sunday, "was a powerful voice for the need to do stem cell research and change the lives of people like him.

. . . .

"I find it opportunistic to use the death of someone like Christopher Reeve -- I think it is shameful -- in order to mislead the American people," Frist said. "We should be offering people hope, but neither physicians, scientists, public servants or trial lawyers like John Edwards should be offering hype.

"It is cruel to people who have disabilities and chronic diseases, and, on top of that, it's dishonest. It's giving false hope to people, and I can tell you as a physician who's treated scores of thousands of patients that you don't give them false hope."
-----------------------------------
Frist now:

Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), a renowned heart surgeon before becoming Senate majority leader, went to the floor late Thursday night for the second time in 12 hours to argue that Florida doctors had erred in saying Terri Schiavo is in a "persistent vegetative state."

"I question it based on a review of the video footage which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office," he said in a lengthy speech in which he quoted medical texts and standards. "She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli."

His comments raised eyebrows in medical and political circles alike. It is not every day that a high-profile physician relies on family videotapes to challenge the diagnosis of doctors who examined a severely brain-damaged patient in person. Democrats were quick to note that Frist was getting rave reviews from conservative activists who will play a major role in the 2008 presidential primaries he is weighing.

--------------------
DeLay now:

"One thing that God has brought to us is Terri Schiavo, to help elevate the visibility of what is going on in America," Mr. DeLay told a conference organized by the Family Research Council, a conservative Christian group. A recording of the event was provided by the advocacy organization Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

"This is exactly the issue that is going on in America, of attacks against the conservative movement, against me and against many others," Mr. DeLay said.

Mr. DeLay complained that "the other side" had figured out how "to defeat the conservative movement," by waging personal attacks, linking with liberal organizations and persuading the national news media to report the story. He charged that "the whole syndicate" was "a huge nationwide concerted effort to destroy everything we believe in."

(In other words, her plight is similar to his own. Way to go Tom.)

[rehmwa 2]

Yes, in those examples, Frist and Edwards and Delay were all being asshats.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[tigra 0]

I didn't watch the A&E documentary. It sure doesn't sound like it was unbiased, though. A&E? Since when are they a reliable source for news?

When I first heard about this case last year, I thought (and still do) that it was a very sad FAMILY matter that the courts have been dragged into. More recently, since it been such a hot topic of debate, I've been trying very objectively to read the FACTS that are available on this case, like the timeline posted on CNN. (Which included information on the mal practice suits and how the proceeds were supposed to be allocated.) This case has been reviewed by the courts time and time again, with "expert" witnesses provided by both sides as well as "neutral" experts from the courts. The concensus is that her brain is essentially gone and there is no chance for recovery. After all of these reviews and appeals, they haven't uncovered any procedural errors in the court proceedings nor any new evidence or information. Her parents are blinded by grief and grasping at straws. At this point, attacking the motives and character of their son in law is about all they have left, so I take whatever they have to say on the subject with a grain of salt. I don't know whether Michale Sciavo is a loving husband or a selfish bastard (or a little of both) but the courts and the medical experts have backed him up over and over again. Its time to let go.

[wmw999 2,176]

In the Devil's advocate department, I'm sure glad I'm not faced with this decision for my son, and I hope I never am. When I see some pictures of her, yes, she does look like there's still someone in there -- it would be nearly impossible without a huge strength of will. It's an intellectual leap, leaving emotion behind (and love for a child is nothing if not emotion), to remember that this face is just a mask.

Only someone making me would do it. But I'd hope they would.

God, I hope I never have to make that decision.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tigra 0]

I agree 100%

[dorbie 0]

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>Last I heard Gov. Bush was trying to get legal custody of Teri to get
>the tube put back in.

He tried; he was denied by the court. Will he try to do it anyway? It would put the police in an uncomfortable position. Obey an order from the governor that's clearly illegal?

No he won't because Jeb has already said he won't because it would be illegal. You could try listening to statements made by the guy you're attacking on the very subject you're attacking him over. Even if you despise his brother it would be a reasonable thing to do before impugning him based on some left wing fantasy.

[billvon 2,476]

>Jeb has already said he won't because it would be illegal.

Let's hope he sticks to that, rather than listen to the right wingers who demand that he break the law. Funny how many conservatives are all law-and-order until a law gets in the way of a cause of theirs - then they have no qualms about advocating criminal action.