Keith 0 #226 March 3, 2005 QuoteMabey you need a comprehension class? Maaaybeee. I stand corrected.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #227 March 3, 2005 QuoteAnd them attacking when people ask questions or differ in opinion only hurts their cause more. There are many ways to ask questions and there are many ways to attack. One common way to attack is to ask questions then misinterpret, re-interpret, or selectively read the answers: "... ... ... doggie treat .... ... ...." Another is to pose insults in the form of questions. "Have you stopped beating your wife?" That's a special favorite around here. Even I have indulged. It's fun! First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #228 March 3, 2005 QuoteAnother is to pose insults in the form of questions. "Have you stopped beating your wife?" That's a special favorite around here. Even I have indulged. It's fun! Did I ask you anything along those lines? Nope you stuck your nose in a different conversation about a different topic that was not addressed to you or about you and got upset. If I did ask suck a loaded question please point it out....I'll wait."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #229 March 3, 2005 Well, if anyone is still here for the original topic and not the bickering... Dan Savage's (of Savage Love) opinion about it is kind of interesting. Another gay person's perspective to throw out there... http://www.thestranger.com/2005-02-24/savage.html _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,148 #230 March 3, 2005 QuoteWell, if anyone is still here for the original topic and not the bickering... No, I'm enjoying my popcorn Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #231 March 3, 2005 QuoteNo, I'm enjoying my popcorn Aw, hell...pass some over. Got any junior mints? Chocolate...peppermint...they're very refreshing! _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #232 March 3, 2005 QuoteDan Savage's (of Savage Love) opinion about it is kind of interesting. Another gay person's perspective to throw out there... QuoteIf people are looking for a truly radical step--something that might actually curb unsafe sex--I've got a suggestion. But first some context: When extremely promiscuous gay men assess the risks and benefits of unprotected sex, most assume that if they get infected, or if they infect someone, that an AIDS organization or state health agency will pay for the AIDS meds they or their sex partners are going to need to keep themselves alive. It seems to me that one sure-fire way to curb unsafe sex would be to put the cost of AIDS meds into the equation. I'm not suggesting that people who can't afford AIDS meds be denied them--God forbid. No, my radical plan to curb unsafe sex among gay men is modeled on a successful program that encourages sexual responsibility among straight men: child-support payments. A straight man knows that if he knocks a woman up, he's on the hook for child-support payments for 18 years. He's free to have as much sex as he likes and as many children as he cares to, but he knows in the back of his mind that his quality of life will suffer if he's irresponsible. I like it...I am a BID fan of personal responsibility....Of course since its coming from me someone will accuse me of "Gay bashing". Edit...OK, I have a question...How do you prove who is the daddy...Who infected who?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #233 March 3, 2005 the idea is sound, but as he wrote, hard to implement within the legal framework we have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #234 March 4, 2005 Quotethe idea is sound, but as he wrote, hard to implement within the legal framework we have. I like the idea for Hetero, or Homo...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #235 March 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteNo, I'm enjoying my popcorn Aw, hell...pass some over. Got any junior mints? Chocolate...peppermint...they're very refreshing! _Pm Hey Mrs. P...pass me some of those Junior Mints...I luv 'em...I'll get us some drinks...... ~R+R...Why is this thread still alive if all it has come down to is semantics and bickering?~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #236 March 4, 2005 QuoteWhy is this thread still alive if all it has come down to is semantics and bickering? Its in SC..Its what happens to all threads here"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #237 March 4, 2005 Oh, and here's the follow-up to the article I posted above, with more perspectives from the gay community and the HIV/AIDS health care community: http://www.thestranger.com/2005-03-03/savage.html QuoteEdit...OK, I have a question...How do you prove who is the daddy...Who infected who? At the end of this article, Dan Savage writes that there will be more discussion on this very topic! Stay tuned. QuoteWe'll have more on this subject next week--including whether or not it would be possible to establish an HIV "paternity"--but in an online special only, not in the print version of Savage Love. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #238 March 4, 2005 QuoteHey Mrs. P...pass me some of those Junior Mints...I luv 'em...I'll get us some drinks... No problem, RR! I'll have a Kahlua Mudslide, please! QuoteWhy is this thread still alive if all it has come down to is semantics and bickering? Yah...I tried to bring it back on topic, but too little much too late, I guess. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #239 March 4, 2005 >Mabey you need a comprehension class? Your one warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #240 March 4, 2005 Whos preaching? As for the UK figures it doesn't show the ethnicity of the people living with HIV/AIDs. Not all but alot of them are from sub Saharan Africa and the former eastern block countrys. While the virus does not descriminate infection rate for Africa is staggering. While working in Jo'burg we tested everyone that came though the ER in a one and a half month period. The detectable perentage of infected patients was 60%. The test we used did not show the virus until it had been in the host for six months, therefore it is quite likely that the true rate was even higher. My point is that the vast majority of these people were hetrosexual. Sexual practice places one in danger not orientation.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #241 March 4, 2005 Quote> Apparently not much since one of them isists there isn't an aids problem in the gay community. Wow. You're just plain making shit up now to prove your point. A popular way to argue a point, but somewhat self-defeating when everyone can read prior posts. Well Bill from the Horses Mouth: Quote Addressed to me from Keith: Ok, of all the men you've slept with, how many have said "no" when you've offered up a condom? Also, of all the gay establishments you've been in, how many have had Zero information posted regarding safe/safer sex? The Next Post from Keith to Me: Very good Linz, but I was hoping to get the answer from gay sex expert professor Storm1977 However since you know the answer, what is the predominant sentiment of barebacking in the gay community, and what does it say about the gay community that there is a term for it? Keith being Gay and me not, he obviously knows everything.... And since I have never put my penis in a guys butt, I can't possibly know anything about Gays and AIDs.... That brings me to the part about "Making Shit Up". In his second post, Keith is basically saying that the GAY COMMUNITY has a term or two; "Barebacking & Fuck of Death". He also seems to imply that since these terms exist, Gay men know not to "bareback" because it is frowned upon, and therefore there isn't a problem. Keith did a common misleading trick in these posts... He tried to argue his point by saying... Since I am gay and you are not, you can not know anything about the gay community. I mean come on... you didn't even know what "barebacking was". Typical Bill...... Keep up your good work. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #242 March 4, 2005 QuoteFor over a decade that fight was successful; the rate of infection was dropping significantly. HIV/AIDS has been around for over 20 years. Those of us active in the gay community back then remember the horrors of watching Many friends die long slow horrible deaths. We take HIV transmission VERY seriously. The problem the gay community is now facing is young 'adults' who never went through what we did. When we were that age HIV/AIDS was unknown and there were NO defenses for it. 20 years ago HIV/AIDS was a death sentence. Today there are medications that allow infected individuals to live much longer lives. Today's youth aren't watching their friends die long slow deaths. They see people taking pills as though they had the flu. The problem with the current fight against HIV/AIDS in the gay community is getting the youth of today to understand that HIV/AIDS is still just as dangerous as it was 20 years ago. I believe Keith should be applauded for hitting the nail on the head. The rate of HIV transmission WAS lowering and WAS starting to be controlled. Those who were intimately associated with the horrors of AIDS (watching KS overtake the skin, seeing the friends with diarrhea and vomiting, and the dementia of rampant CMV and herpes) had good reason to be careful. Nowadays, that type of suffering is not seen. Why is HIV spreading so much? I understand that there is a great deal of perception that it is no worse in many ways than dealing with herpes or any other STD. The start of this thread showed that these people go in for treatment of other STD's, and not HIV. For many, HIV seems to be either: 1) an acceptable disease with only long-term consequences; 2) a status symbol; or 3) a fatalistic "I'm gonna get it sometime, anyway" disease. The first step to controlling infectious diseases is to ask "who is getting the disease." Then you ask, "how are they getting it." Then the education system is geared specifically for them. Unfortunately, AIDS education is lumped in to educate everyone the same way. The government lies to the public about the dangers and effects of drugs, leading to disbelief among the populace and the public discarding of the message. The government lies to the public about smoking, drinking, and any of a number of other activities in scare campaigns. The scares don't come true, and the messages are discarded. AIDS is no different. It's time to get real and show Generation Y the effects of the disease. It's time to inform them all that "This disease can kill you in 20 years, here's what you can expect, and contrary to people's wishes, desires and statements, there's a 99 percent chance there won't be a cure and it will kill you in a slow, agonizing way. "Also, you will be a bigger part of the problem because you'll be helping to spread new forms of the disease that make vaccinations and cures obsolete before they come out. Notice that new strains are going around that can't be controlled. Guess how many there will be in ten years." Naive belief that there will be an HIV cure in 5 or 10 years is helping this spread. 2001 came and went, and we are not much closer to our visions of "A Space Odyssey" than we were in 1970... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoadRash 0 #243 March 4, 2005 Awesome post...! ~R+R...~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #244 March 4, 2005 QuoteIn his second post, Keith is basically saying that the GAY COMMUNITY has a term or two; "Barebacking & Fuck of Death". He also seems to imply that since these terms exist, Gay men know not to "bareback" because it is frowned upon, and therefore there isn't a problem. Keith did a common misleading trick in these posts... He tried to argue his point by saying... Since I am gay and you are not, you can not know anything about the gay community. I mean come on... you didn't even know what "barebacking was". Where did I say there isn't a problem with barebacking??? Talk about misleading and making shit up!!! Where did I ever use the term "Fuck of Death"? I didn't. Also, you've made a LOT of unsubstantiated claims about the gay community and it's response to the AIDS epidemic. What I want to know is Where You Get Your Information. You obviously don't get it from first hand experience or any credible source that you've bothered to state. As best I can tell your post is intended to inflame since you refuse to back up your unsubstantiated statements. On that note, I Really Am done with this tread.Keith Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #245 March 4, 2005 Whenever you ask a question or say anything about what the gay community did, you always have to ask these questions: 1) What were the various responses of portions of the "gay community?"; and 2) When were these responses? It's kinda like saying, "What was the response of the government to the HIV crisis?" It's been different at different times, and different bureacracies and different governments responded differently. At the start of the epidemic, there were a couple of clear-cut idealogical movements in the gay community. The first was to do whatever was necessary to prevent the spread of "gay cancer." The second was to shove the risk under the carpet to prevent re-closeting of the gay lifestyle. As understanding changed and people saw first-hand the way their friends and lovers were dying, those in the second group gradually came over to the first group. Much has changed in the last 20 years, including people's and groups' positions on the subject. I have never taken an implication that Keith says, "You aren't gay so you don't know." Only that Keith said, "There is plenty you don't know about the gay community or lifestyle." Keith is right to feel attacked by some posters. I'm glad he's spoken up and given some good insight, and it's a shame he's taking himself out of this discussion. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #246 March 4, 2005 Quote Much has changed in the last 20 years, including people's and groups' positions on the subject. I have never taken an implication that Keith says, "You aren't gay so you don't know." Only that Keith said, "There is plenty you don't know about the gay community or lifestyle." Keith is right to feel attacked by some posters. I'm glad he's spoken up and given some good insight, and it's a shame he's taking himself out of this discussion. Most of what you say is true.... But the more things change the more they stay the same. There was a LOT of awarness and talk of prevention in the late 80's early 90's, but once the next gen of drugs came out, the risk and scare of AIDs was sort of pushed aside. It seems like we are falling back into the era of the early 80's again. I never argued with Keith reguarding what is being done, but I did say MORE needs to be done. What bothers me about what he said was that he knows NOTHING about me or my background and makes blanket statements about my lack of knowledge on the subject. I don't NEED to give Keith my credentials... But for shits and giggles, he can google my uncle's name to see what he finds... David LaFontaine origionally of Canton, MA. Go ahead Keith.... google his name and gay and see what you come up with buddy. Do your own research and see who he is... ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #247 March 4, 2005 QuoteI don't NEED to give Keith my credentials... But for shits and giggles, he can google my uncle's name to see what he finds My dad was a tool and die maker. I'm not inserting myself into any discussions about proper manual operation of mills and lathes. Nor should any of your relatives claim good knowledge of meterology... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #248 March 4, 2005 QuoteQuoteI don't NEED to give Keith my credentials... But for shits and giggles, he can google my uncle's name to see what he finds My dad was a tool and die maker. I'm not inserting myself into any discussions about proper manual operation of mills and lathes. Nor should any of your relatives claim good knowledge of meterology... Why not..if they educate you on the subject!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #249 March 4, 2005 QuoteBut for shits and giggles, he can google my uncle's name to see what he finds... David LaFontaine origionally of Canton, MA. Just for shits and giggles... Just because your uncle is an expert in gay activism doesn't necessarily make you one. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #250 March 4, 2005 I must say, when I was younger I didn't talk with him much, because I was too young tounderstand his activism. As I got older I spend a great deal of time discussing his beliefs and activism. I got first hand knowledge of what was/is going on behind the gay lobby and gay activism. It is part of my family... Maybe more than even Keith's... But I don't know that because I don't know Keith. Just as he doesn't know me. But to discard my opinion because I am not gay.... That is just silly. I don't have to be gay to have an understanding of the situation. I don't have to be a jew to understand the significance of the holocaust. I don't have to live in NY to understand the impact of 9/11. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
