Low turns/avoidance manoeuvres and high performance canopies

[dgw 8]

This is an information query. I don't, and probably won't, jump HP canopies.

With the long recovery arcs associated with HP canopies, and particularly the cross-braced variety, what is the situation with low altitude avoidance manoeuvres, primarily when performing HP landings?

Does a flat turn deliver the goods when the corner presents? Is the flat turn a 'magic bullet' for all low situations, or do you have a lesser chance with a HP canopy, compared with a lightly loaded canopy?

I can appreciate the time element - HP = faster.
I can appreciate the corrollory that greater distance is required for a given situation and perception/reaction time.

What I don't understand is whether the technique of flat turn is sufficient or possible/appropriate when a high performance landing is in progress.

Comments appreciated.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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This is an information query. I don't, and probably won't, jump HP canopies.

With the long recovery arcs associated with HP canopies, and particularly the cross-braced variety, what is the situation with low altitude avoidance manoeuvres, primarily when performing HP landings?

Does a flat turn deliver the goods when the corner presents?

You have to be beneath the wing to do any sort of turn with minimal altitude loss. Once you've dealt with the pitch problem flat and flare turns work great; and the induced speed from a 90 degree front riser turn can be sufficient to finish the last 90 degrees of turn without altitude loss while flaring.

[billvon 2,400]

>Does a flat turn deliver the goods when the corner presents?

I jump a Nitro loaded at about 1.95 to 1, and flat turns are still quite effective. However, you have to be a LOT further ahead of the canopy, and you have to initiate the action at much higher altitudes to be able to complete the same sort of turn.

With front riser turns, you have many more options than you do during a toggle turn. You can bail at almost any point. I usually start with a front riser turn to final and hold some fronts to extend the dive. If I have to bail to avoid a hazard or make a last minute correction, I can drop the risers and start turning with the toggles. The big risk when I do that is that I end up manuevering at low altitudes at too low an airspeed, resulting in either a dive when I go back to full flight or (more likely) a landing in half brakes, which at those loadings are not usually graceful.

I should add that no manuever is a magic bullet to solve problems like this at low altitudes. Good planning is going to be your best tool; flat turns are at best a possible way to make a bad situation somewhat less bad. If a jumper cannot stay far enough ahead of the canopy to anticipate last minute problems like traffic or obstacles, a larger canopy is the ticket.

[JohnMitchell 14]

A lot of good stuff that Bill presents.

Another thought . . many low turns are unnecessary. Some people have died thinking they had to land into the wind or in a certain field, or in a big swoop.

So learn flat turns, and learn how to land accurately, and learn when to say "no" to making a low turn. And never jump a canopy that flies faster than you can think.

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[AFFI 0]

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never jump a canopy that flies faster than you can think.

What a great quote!

Guess I need to upsize to a Manta -
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[dharma1976 0]

swoop abortion saves lives

remember that you should know what is happening before you make any turns....

and adjust while making said same turns to create your own reality....

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Rafaellimon 0]

So I start to think after reading all posts, what would be the safest altitude for no more turns with a load of 1.2 at 4,500 above sea level???

[JumpRu 14]

Take canopy control course from Scott Miller, he will show you several ways to make flat turns from normal flight and how to abort low hook turn. Technique is a little different. I don't want to give instructions on-line, but you have to practice flat turns, flare turns, high-speed flat turns and some other stuff to be safe. Take canopy control course and you will have very different perspective about canopy flight in general and high speed landings. Instead of been just scared of low turns (not so good when you ARE going in the barbwire fence) you will have knowledge to land your canopy in any situation.

[Beer 0]

I can attest, the Scott Miller course is most excelent.

We got him to come out and do a few courses over the summer. You'll definately be a better canopy pilot if you listen and practice what he teaches.

Learn to be happy. You can't be there for anybody else in life if you can't learn to be there for yourself.

[Waldschrat 0]

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I jump a Nitro loaded at about 1.95 to 1, and flat turns are still quite effective.

How many jumps do you have on this canopy and wich lines have you?

[dharma1976 0]

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So I start to think after reading all posts, what would be the safest altitude for no more turns with a load of 1.2 at 4,500 above sea level???

ummmmm follow your pattern and then avoidance is the only issue... so if your pattern is 1000-500-300 for your turns stick to that

then take a canopy course with someone like Brian Germain or Scott Miller, both hella nice and both hella good teachers.

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[crewkeith 0]

you can turn while swooping.

bsbd
keith

The skies are no longer safe

I'm back

[billvon 2,400]

>what would be the safest altitude for no more turns with a load of
>1.2 at 4,500 above sea level???

This is a worrisome question to me! It's like asking "so I'm flying King Airs now; what altitude should I pull back on the yoke to land?" If you have to ask that, you shouldn't be flying King Airs.

You can turn your canopy until your feet touch the ground. Indeed, you NEED to be constantly correcting your canopy all the way down at those loadings. With Mantas, you can tell a student "no turns below 200 feet" and say "Hands all the way up! Hands up! Hands up! Now flare!" because a Manta isn't going to turn much while you have your hands all the way up (i.e. not steering.) But at a loading of 1.2 at 4500 feet? If you leave it alone for the last 200 feet you could end up landing where you don't want, crosswind, or even in a turn.

I strongly recommend you get some coaching on low-level canopy control. Your coach will probably recommend some exercises you can do up high to get the feel of controlling the canopy, then suggest some minor turns down low. Turning just before the flare, and during the flare, will give you a good feel for how much altitude you will lose, and how aggressive a turn you can do at which altitude. Once you get good at this, you will find that you can do pretty dramatic turns at low altitude to avoid last minute obstacles. But again, this needs to be practiced up high first under the direction of a coach.

[georgerussia 0]

I would also add that Sabre 2 loaded at 1.2 looks kinda aggressive canopy choice for a jumper with 23 jumps.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *