Graner Gets 10 Yrs in Iraqi Prison Abuse. Outrageous!

[tantalum 0]

As the news media are reporting the verdict.

Actually, I believe this guy: that he was ordered to soften prisoners, that he knew it was wrong, and that he is taking the fall while those above him go unpunished.

Poor guy. He was in a no-win situation. Bush and Rummy are still President and Secretary of Defense. It's always the little guy that gets killed/put in prison. Whatever happened to our elected officials taking personal responsibility? (Except, of course, the responsibilty to enrich ones own fortune.)

I truely believe that Graner is another victim of the Iraq war!

[AggieDave 6]

So are you saying that W. issued an order to beat prisoners?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[feuergnom 22]

major bullshit!

if he was ordered and didn't want to do the things he did, he could have listened to his "inner voice" or what ever you like to cal it and refused to fulfill his orders

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[tantalum 0]

We know that the DoJ (Gonzalez) issued directives/analysis that the Geneva convention does not apply in "certain" situations.

Of course, what's wrong with self-proclaimed purveyor nation of freedom and democracy effectively endorsing torture on an offiial level?

You tell me.

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So are you saying that W. issued an order to beat prisoners?

[AggieDave 6]

So prove to me that W issued those orders and it wasn't someone down the line and it got out of hand before the upper level of the chain of command became aware. Who says it wasn't some Army Major that was stepping beyond his command in issuing those orders?

That sort of thing has happened before in literally every military organization in the world.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tantalum 0]

Another thread has it that "soldiers do what they are told to do". You want to argue that point of view (per your post)?

I am all with you if you do!

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major bullshit!

if he was ordered and didn't want to do the things he did, he could have listened to his "inner voice" or what ever you like to cal it and refused to fulfill his orders

[tantalum 0]

Dave,

I am not saying that it originated from W. I don't know. My point is, Graner was an enlisted soldier. Not even one of his commanding officers has been touched or is under investigation.

Do you really believe he came up with this all by himself. (And after you have had a chance to read the reporting of the New York Times or Washington Post). Let me know.

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So prove to me that W issued those orders and it wasn't someone down the line and it got out of hand before the upper level of the chain of command became aware. Who says it wasn't some Army Major that was stepping beyond his command in issuing those orders?

That sort of thing has happened before in literally every military organization in the world.

[AggieDave 6]

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Do you really believe he came up with this all by himself.

No, I don't.

I was just arguing with you about your claim that it came from Rummy or W (as stated in your first post).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[feuergnom 22]

there have alway ben examples of soldiers disobeying their orders if they thought they had nothing to do with their job/duty or went strictly against their set of moral beliefs - even in the situation of war. for example german soldiers in ww2 refusing to shoot civilians in the ethnic cleanings. in that situation it sure meant death for the or the way to the next concentration camp (which was the same).

graner - if he really was ordered to torture - could have made his stand. i have no idea of how the u.s. army works - but my guess is the consequences coudn't have been that severe, than the ones he is facing now.
my guess is - that he's just another fuckhead trying to save his poor ass

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[crwslut 0]

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So prove to me that W issued those orders and it wasn't someone down the line and it got out of hand before the upper level of the chain of command became aware. Who says it wasn't some Army Major that was stepping beyond his command in issuing those orders?

That sort of thing has happened before in literally every military organization in the world.

.
Was Graner acting within the general sphere of permissiveness tolerated somewhere in the hierarchy ...my guess would be yes. Is he responsible for his actions ...most definitely yes.

As a country, we were/are fearful. We elected leaders to take extra-ordinary measures to help us feel safer.

Be careful what you ask for ...

What could possibly go wrong?

[Greene 0]

You are who?
You are where?
You are a skydiver?
Number of skydives? (Not really important)

Read all of your posts!

You do not ever express a positive side on any subject.

Do you only believe in the negative and never the positive, or do you just want to be on the the other side of every issue?

Skies blue to you, only if you are a real skydiver.

Lee

[Michele 1]

If he violated the Geneva Conventions or the law, I believe the sentence was a just one. As with anyone who violates the law, once convicted, there is a sentence passed. 10 years doesn't seem out of line for what he was convicted of.

The topic of "who else" was involved does not abrogate Graner's responsibility in the matter.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rhino 0]

I don't think he should have gotten prison at all. He is the scapegoat for other people on this deal. How in the hell are they suppose to get information out of prisoners? Sit them down with a cup of coffee and offer them cash? Hell no! You humiliate them, make them fear for their life, tire them and break them.. Effective interrogation techniques... The pictures? The dumb fuckers should have never been STUPID enough to have photos taken.. They should have scarlet letters with S for STUPID tattooed on their foreheads..

At least those prisoners didn't get their heads hacked off...

Fucking ridiculous.. Shows what a lack of loyalty even our own have these days...

[dorbie 0]

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We know that the DoJ (Gonzalez) issued directives/analysis that the Geneva convention does not apply in "certain" situations.

That's just the law, the DoJ doesn't write it. Surely you don't expect them to interpret it based on your whimsical interests.

[BillyVance 34]

Well, the soldiers were stupid enough to be taking pictures and video footage of their own actions...

What was really damaging to Graner's chances in his trial was footage shown to the jury of him smiling, whistling, laughing, etc, while he's doing the torture... What kind of sick-minded bastard does that? If I have to torture somebody (ie follow orders) I'm sure as hell not going to look like I'm enjoying it.

Sure, there's a war going on and bad things happen (Graner's own words), but if you're going to do things against the Geneva Convention, at least make sure you're not documenting it for the whole world to see!

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rhino 0]

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I'm sure as hell not going to look like I'm enjoying it.

Agreed.. I would look like one ANGRY bastard.. Hey? They were blindfolded...

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but if you're going to do things against the Geneva Convention, at least make sure you're not documenting it for the whole world to see!

That was REALLY a stupid thing to do... It was an INCOMPETENT thing to do.. Just like having journalist along during combat operations ie "The Soldier, Mercy killing ordeal". We need to put a stop to that shit quick, fast and in a hurry...

Rhino

[slug 1]

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Well, the soldiers were stupid enough to be taking pictures and video footage of their own actions...

What was really damaging to Graner's chances in his trial was footage shown to the jury of him smiling, whistling, laughing, etc, while he's doing the torture... What kind of sick-minded bastard does that? If I have to torture somebody (ie follow orders) I'm sure as hell not going to look like I'm enjoying it.

Sure, there's a war going on and bad things happen (Graner's own words), but if you're going to do things against the Geneva Convention, at least make sure you're not documenting it for the whole world to see!

Mr Graner was a Guard (CO) in the civilian world. If he is what they say he is a sadistic sicko it makes a person wonder what he used to do get wawy with at work befor the war.

Of course his prevous boss said he was a good CO. The fact that he liked posing for pictures doing bad things makes a person wonder if he was just a big dumb bully control freak, that got caught with the goods.

IMO he got of easy.

R.I.P.

[miked10270 0]

IMHO Graner was guilty of getting caught.

America does not have a good history of POW treatment and reports of American abuse of POWs exist from almost every conflict since The American Civil War.

A "standard" interview technique (standard 'cos it's bloody effective) is to humiliate, degrade and terrify the interviewee, not to get information at that time, but then to suddenly change the staff & regime to a civilised & apologetic one whereupon the interviewee (with the terror & degradation removed) will blurt out loads to his "new friend". In effect a prolonged and pronounced version of "nasty cops - nice cops". I believe that Graner & co were detailed with doing the "nasty cops" part.

Where it all went pear-shaped for them wasn't their behaviour, it was the exposure of such behaviour worldwide. IT was out, people were outraged, something had to be done, "court martial the folk in the photos!!!!!" That way the world would believe that no investigating agency (certainly NOT an American one) would tolerate such behaviour... Sure.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[gravityizsexy 0]

I think this verdict gives us the green light to start
beating the shit out of iraqi POW's.. This mockery
of judicial military punishment is just a way of saying
to the world - ie. The UN - that we're following protocol of war... (whatever that is), and that we've
got structures in place to prevent breach of the
Geneva Convention. So we don't need anyone but
ourselves monitering ourselves and what we do with
our prisoners.

For whoever said, that a soldier could simply refuse
an order because (s)he doesn't think it's right morally
... we'll according the the Uniform Code of Military
Justice this is true. But you try refusing a order claiming
that it is unlawful. You'll get hit up with a serious
loss of pay and decrease in rank with probable loss
of duty status, until your case is tried and a verdict
is decided. These soldiers have families at home and
they cannot afford to dimish their paychecks over
an order. well, it's up to them to weight it out. But
still... if your being ORDERED by a superior officer,
you do what your told. plain and simple.

The whole thing smells funny to me... I mean he
is the ONLY person getting penalized??? Im sorry
people, that is just not how it works in the military.

"'Someday is not a day in my week'"

[feuergnom 22]

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For whoever said, that a soldier could simply refuse
an order because (s)he doesn't think it's right morally
... we'll according the the Uniform Code of Military
Justice this is true. But you try refusing a order claiming
that it is unlawful.

i mentioned this and i still believe - if your morals are firm, and you feel that this order is way beyond your set "system of beliefs", you will oppose these orders, no matter what the consequences will be

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You'll get hit up with a serious
loss of pay and decrease in rank with probable loss
of duty status, until your case is tried and a verdict
is decided. These soldiers have families at home and
they cannot afford to dimish their paychecks over
an order. well, it's up to them to weight it out.

and what is he - or to make this more "unpersonal" what would any other soldier - face after this? he's going to jail - so no paychecks, no income....


as stated before - they were dumb enough to take vids & photos and get caught

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[Ron 7]

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What kind of sick-minded bastard does that? If I have to torture somebody (ie follow orders) I'm sure as hell not going to look like I'm enjoying it.

Then you would be a VERY bad interrogation officer.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mikkey 0]

Reading some of the stuff here - looks like quite a few posters really think the soldiers only made one mistake and that was taking pictures. BTW the prison was not a POW camp - all kinds of people were held there - also people arrested for minor offenses and were not convicted or charged at the time of abuse.

So how can posters who all the time say that the Iraq war was justified because it got rid of Saddam and his methods, promote this type of treatment of prisoners?

So the US can and should do what ever it pleases and behave like the worst human rights offenders? or at least if it is against muslims? So aren't you becoming what you supposedly are fighting against?
Quite disturbing stuff IMHO.

BTW - the insurgency in Iraq is now believed to have up to 200 thousand participants. And there are not many foreign terrorists amongst them - they are nearly all locals. Ever wondered why the insurgency seems to be growing?
And forget about the latest BS that Iraq is like a flypaper and if they were not in Iraq they would be bombing your local cinema. These people would not be attacking coalition targets if it wasn't for the occupation.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[rhino 0]

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they are nearly all locals.

Where are you getting your information from? The asshole that blew himself up in the mess tent was
NOT a local. Neither are MANY of the insurgents there...

Rhino

[gravityizsexy 0]

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and what is he - or to make this more "unpersonal" what would any other soldier - face after this? he's going to jail - so no paychecks, no income....

Yeah, they really threw the book at him...what im upset
about is he said he was told to take these courses of
action by superior authorities.... who and where are these
authorities??? This is my question... I just don't like it
something is out of place. This guy is no more a
monster than the next person given that kind of
authority. We've all heard of "abuse of power", well
to me, his job was to abuse his power. Yes, you are
right... the sentence is ridiculous... I hope somewhere
their secretly hooking this guy up with something worth
going through this bullshit for.

as stated before - they were dumb enough to take vids & photos and get caught

"'Someday is not a day in my week'"

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Reading some of the stuff here - looks like quite a few posters really think the soldiers only made one mistake and that was taking pictures. BTW the prison was not a POW camp - all kinds of

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people were held there - also people arrested for minor offenses and were not convicted or charged at the time of abuse.

They were also not the ones being "abused" if thats the word you want to use.

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So how can posters who all the time say that the Iraq war was justified because it got rid of Saddam and his methods, promote this type of treatment of prisoners?

So the US can and should do what ever it pleases and behave like the worst human rights offenders? or at least if it is against muslims? So aren't you becoming what you supposedly are fighting against?
Quite disturbing stuff IMHO.

It's called scale. How can you equate humiliation, with the cutting off fingers, arms and legs, poking out eyes, and worse, that occured under SH?

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BTW - the insurgency in Iraq is now believed to have up to 200 thousand participants. And there are not many foreign terrorists amongst them - they are nearly all locals. Ever wondered why the insurgency seems to be growing?

Got a link from a credible source?

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And forget about the latest BS that Iraq is like a flypaper and if they were not in Iraq they would be bombing your local cinema. These people would not be attacking coalition targets if it wasn't for the occupation.

Yeah, they would probably be sitting around singing "Give Peace a Chance" and "Kumbya."

Terrorists do what terrorists do. They use any means and justification they can to recruit. They blame everything on someone or something else. Try reading a little about methods of psychological persuasion used by brutal dictators and regimes throughout history.

SH was nothing but a terrorist who made it big. Big enough to have control of all the assets of Iraq at his disposal. I have absolutely no doubt, given what we now know, that the criminal elements within the U.N. would have demanded sanctions be ended and it would have been back to business as usual for Saddam. Given also that the Duelfer Report specifically found that procuring WMD's was a main priority for SH after the sanctions ended, that down the road we would have been faced with an even worse dilemma than we now face with N. Korea. I also have no doubt that Iran would be even less cooperative than they now are if there weren't over 100,000 US troops sitting next door.

How anyone can sit there and so blindly believe that if we just don't upset terrorist they will become passive and learn to love us is beyond me. Look at how Israel tried to pacify Arafat. He was asked what it would take to end the terrorists attacks and then walked away from the negotiations when it became clear he was going to get 95% of what he asked for. When will people finally understand that these people want to kill you and your family because you aren't a Muslim? When will people understand the terrorists are brain-washing the young Muslims in the Mosques to hate Western Civilization? When will people finally understand this is a Cultural and Religious War? How many more dead Americans do you think we should have found acceptable? How many more terrorists attacks should we have suffered until we did something? Does anyone honestly believe that just by going into Afghanistan, that the terrorist attacks would have ended?

Tell us what we should have done?

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