tantalum

I don't know that Richard Simmons is gay at all...but, Tom, make of it whatever you want to. Be my guest to empower yourself! (Your rigorous logical reasoning, or fallacy thereof, would perfectly fall in line with those non-existing WMDs, terrorism ties, etc.) Edited to SHOCK AND AWE, as this seems particularly popular with my fellow Americans these days. I don't know Ted, but I'm about to have a PM exchange with him regarding this comment. Consider this your only warning.

This is an absolutely crucial insight: We are becoming what we set out to fight for! Human rights abuse, torture, indiscriminate killings, you name it....the name is US.

What does it matter as to the quality of arguments as to who and where I am? If I am a concerned on-looker posting from Riyadh? What if I am a Muslim, Hindu, non-Christian? Even worse, what if I am a Democrat? What does it matter if I am a skydiver or not? (Truthfully, I have been in the sport long enough not having to define myself any longer by jumping out of airplanes.) And yes, if some times the negative of American politics seems overwhelming: all 1,300+ bodies of it. Sent to their graves needlessly and prematurely...

What if the oppressed don't want to be liberated? See you, hopefully, in Israel next time, to free the Palestinians!!!! If there is a Fire, a fireman will be there If there is a Crime, A policeman will be there If there is an injury, a paramedic will be there If there is a fight, a SOLDIER WILL BE THERE. We know the risks when we enlist, we don't enlist to pick our battles or pick who we fight for. We will fight for everyone in the US, I don;t care who, we will also fight for those being oppresed in other countries, because that is what soldiers do!

Dave, I am not saying that it originated from W. I don't know. My point is, Graner was an enlisted soldier. Not even one of his commanding officers has been touched or is under investigation. Do you really believe he came up with this all by himself. (And after you have had a chance to read the reporting of the New York Times or Washington Post). Let me know.

Another thread has it that "soldiers do what they are told to do". You want to argue that point of view (per your post)? I am all with you if you do!

We know that the DoJ (Gonzalez) issued directives/analysis that the Geneva convention does not apply in "certain" situations. Of course, what's wrong with self-proclaimed purveyor nation of freedom and democracy effectively endorsing torture on an offiial level? You tell me.

As the news media are reporting the verdict. Actually, I believe this guy: that he was ordered to soften prisoners, that he knew it was wrong, and that he is taking the fall while those above him go unpunished. Poor guy. He was in a no-win situation. Bush and Rummy are still President and Secretary of Defense. It's always the little guy that gets killed/put in prison. Whatever happened to our elected officials taking personal responsibility? (Except, of course, the responsibilty to enrich ones own fortune.) I truely believe that Graner is another victim of the Iraq war!

Actually it goes much deeper than that: we do know that language (both syntax and semantics) dramatically affect the perception of reality. After all: "for what there are now words, one cannot speak of." Good beginning for anyone interested is the "Tractatus Logico Philosophicus" by 19-th century Austrian Ludwig Wittgenstein. Not light, but essential! PS.: I would argue that French affords a very different (better?!) perception of reality than English.

They didn't die fighting for a Republic that was under attack. They didn't die defending you, me, or our families. They died for Exxon, Haliburton, Cheney, Bush...and a few other people and corporations who stand to make billions from this war. They died for a lie, the lie of WMDs, the lie of Iraq sponsoring terrorism. And thus they died in vain...they did NOT die for our country. Just as in the Matrix: you can take the red pill or the blue pill; one will wake you up, with the other you go on to believe whatever you want to believe! Edited because first post was a bit rough... But, you have no right IMHO to say that those people died in vain, that's pretty messed up actually.. They died fighting for their country, whether you agree with why they were fighting or not.. That is NOT in vain no matter how you feel.

That's a most excellent point! However, what if there was war and nobody showed up (or refused to show up)? Really curious as to your response. Don't we all need to take personal responsibilities (rather than delegating them?). P.S.: As an SD Instructor, I have to face certain responsibilities that I am unable to abdicate at 3k ft. Same as a rigger.

Ted, both you and I know that you are as gay as "Richard Simmons". Nothing wrong with that! After all, Richard giving weight-loss classes to our troups in Baghdad is true to the cause. Now, if our boys just ever could stay off McD...even under fire.

Ted: I am not gay, re: hugs and kisses. But if you are, I will defend you and your rights! And I will always be willing to shake your hand...

I truely appreciate your comment, hence I want to take the time to reply. Yes, serving our country and defending it, is honorable: serving in our forces is honorable. However, it is NOT honorable to invade a country just to take over it's natural riches for profit. Iraq never threatened us or had the means to attack us. All the 1,300+ military personnel who have died, have died in vain: They didn't die to defend your or my freedom, they did not die for the Republic. They died for Exxon, Halliburton, Cheney, Bush, etc. Believe it or not, but some ppl will get very rich off of these killings.

Uhmmm, Bill, is being President of the USA an apprentice job...? Why don't you hear these kind of statements from elected leaders of France, Mexico, Russia, Mongolia, Senegal, South Africa, or some other goddamn' country nooone has ever heart off. What do they know that the President doesn't? Do we need to lower the intellectual bar (aka expectations) further so that this President has any chance to clear it? Can we next vote Forest Gump into office? I am sorry, but sometimes apologies won't cut it! There are mistakes, at certain levels, that are unforgiveable.