Global dimming

[JackC 0]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_prog_summary.shtml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1108853,00.html

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040517/pf/040517-7_pf.html

[miked10270 0]

So... Let me get this absolutely right....

As the greenhouse gasses cause the Earth to warm up, the soot in the atmosphere cuts down the sunlight and thus causes the Earth to cool down.

So. What I therefore should do is stop using my modern, environmentally friendly diesel truck that runs on Bio, & instead use my old, smokey truck on Bio. That way the smoke the old Perkins Diesel throws out will cut down on global warming...?

NOW i'm confused.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[crozby 0]

What is scary is that the average temperature over the USA went up by over 1 degree during the 3 day period the planes were all grounded after 9/11 just because of the lack of jet vapour trails.

[penniless 0]

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What is scary is that the average temperature over the USA went up by over 1 degree during the 3 day period the planes were all grounded after 9/11 just because of the lack of jet vapour trails.

What is scary is that we are clearly influencing the climate, but don't really understand what the hell we're doing.

[Gawain 0]

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What is scary is that the average temperature over the USA went up by over 1 degree during the 3 day period the planes were all grounded after 9/11 just because of the lack of jet vapour trails.

What is scary is that we are clearly influencing the climate, but don't really understand what the hell we're doing.

What's even better is that we think we are so powerful as to be able to influence the global environment the way everyone claims.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Botellines 0]

Considering it is the supervivence of mankind what we are talking about, i think it is worth to take into consideration all the posibilities and play safe...

[kelpdiver 2]

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What's even better is that we think we are so powerful as to be able to influence the global environment the way everyone claims.

It's pretty clear that we are so capable. We did find ways to eat away ozone in the upper atmosphere, while creating plenty of it down on the surface where it affects us. And we're pumping out vast amounts of CO2 which will have some effects, but probably not so simplistic as some would state.

And one nuclear war will do wonders for the globe.

In the geological sense, we may not have that much power. But in the timeframe that matters to us, don't kid yourself otherwise.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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So... Let me get this absolutely right....

As the greenhouse gasses cause the Earth to warm up, the soot in the atmosphere cuts down the sunlight and thus causes the Earth to cool down.

Yup - essentially they're saying the Greenhouse effect is much worse than what we are seeing... as the heating effects are being minimised by the dimming effect.

What happens when you take away the dimming particals without tackling the underlying problems causing global warming? You get a large increase in temp over a very short time period.

Seeing as the particulates which cause dimming also cause serious problems to human health, simply continuing to churn out particulates is probably not a great idea... thus we're gonna have to take a look at the greenhouse gas problem at some point.

I guess this is probably all moot anyway as we're gonna run out of fosil fuels in the next few years anyway... then we'll be forced to look at the way we get our energy anyway.

[Red_Skydiver 0]

There was a programme on TV in the UK about this last week - it was very worrying!! A possible 10 degree increase in temperature this century would have catastrophic affects.

This isn't something that will happen to future generations and we can ignore, we will see the affects (or is that effects?) in our lifetime or at least in our childrens lifetime. I think most people ignore the problem but we underestimate the effects it will have. Unfortunately we don't fully understand how we can change the situation and even if we did would people listen?

[billvon 2,426]

>What's even better is that we think we are so powerful as to be able
>to influence the global environment the way everyone claims.

Go to the desert outside Vegas if you think we can't influence climate. Go to the former mouth of the Colorado river if you think we can't change whole ecosystems. Go to the Salton Sea if you think we can't _create_ new ecosystems.

We've increased the amount of CO2 in the air by about 40% in the past 200 years. That means that a gas in our atmosphere - the same atmosphere that covers the whole planet - has been increased by almost half. We ARE powerful enough to do it, because we did do it.

The question now is - what will that do? If we change nothing we are doing now, eventually we will double the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, then triple it. Animals have to adapt to changing CO2 levels since it is a poison to them. Plants use it and grow faster in a high-CO2 environment. CO2 is a strong greenhouse gas and will thus alter the planet's heat balance. To think that nothing could possibly happen when we double the amount of a critical gas in the earth's atmosphere is naive at best.

There are two extremes on the climate debate, both of them wrong. One side predicts global catastrophe tomorrow. The other side is certain that nothing bad could possibly happen no matter what we do to the atmosphere. Both are just as wrong, but the latter's mistake just might kill millions.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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What is scary is that the average temperature over the USA went up by over 1 degree during the 3 day period the planes were all grounded after 9/11 just because of the lack of jet vapour trails.

um, no, probably just because of normal temperature fluctuations.

Speed Racer
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[Michele 1]

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Both are just as wrong, but the latter's mistake just might kill millions.

Bill, if they're wrong, how could it kill millions?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[rocketdog 0]

-- a tangent --
does anyone know what the government (or whoever!) is doing to try & reverse/prevent damage?

i know there are more auto e-checks that are mandatory, but i honestly haven't heard much else about our world.... anyone wanna fill me in?

~hollywood

see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com

[mr2mk1g 10]

The US administrations "official" line to the media and public is that it's not happening and that it's all science bunkum. If you look a little closer however you will see quiet but explicit admissions that global warming is happening and all the scientists are right... because to acutally denie it would make them look like complete idiots.

What's the US govt. doing doing to prevent this sort of climate change? Nada. Zilch. Zero. Zip. Just look at the Kyoto agreement .

[ScottishJohn 25]

A global temprature increase of 10C would make some countries in the world uninhabital.

In 2003 the french government estimated that 10,000 people (mostly elderly) died due to a heat wave. If Global tempratures increased such that this abnormal temprature was the normal then we would have 10 of thousands dieing each year in Europe alone.

low lying countries / islands would submerge under water making them unihabital due to a rise in sea level.

John

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If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[storm1977 0]

HAHAHAHAHAHA....

LOL.... You guys are funny!!!!

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[mnealtx 0]

Yep, global warming is such a problem... which is why just a couple years ago, ALL of the Great Lakes froze over for the first time in a lot of years....

.... I guess that's also why the news are reporting -54F in Minnesota.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ScottishJohn 25]

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Yep, global warming is such a problem.

I'm glad you agree

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which is why just a couple years ago, ALL of the Great Lakes froze over for the first time in a lot of years....

What all of them, Completely ?

On the global scale of things this is only a local incident that happened due to local weather patterns.

Don't they usually freeze over to some extent every year ?

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I guess that's also why the news are reporting -54F in Minnesota.

When was this. As far as I can see Today in Minneapolis it is 12F / -11C (which is cold but probably not unusual for this area)


Max Temp Min Temp
Normal (KMSP) 22 °F / -5 °C 4 °F / -15 °C
Record (KMSP) 48 °F / 8 °C (1891) -31 °F / -35 °C (1967)

Yesterday 3 °F / -16 °C -12 °F / -24 °C

Just because it's freezing in your local area idoes not mean that the Earth is getting warmer year after year.

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If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[mnealtx 0]

It's every bit as valid as the other theories....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[ScottishJohn 25]

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It's every bit as valid as the other theories....

What is ?

Do you think that personal opinion is more reliable than scientific fact.

I still don't know where you got the figure for -54 (F or C) Deg from.

John


Ok. I found a link http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=74230

Must be another local affect because the rest of minnesota is not as cold as that.

Several northern Minnesota cities saw extreme cold temperatures. It was 51 below zero in Babbitt, 44 below in International Falls, and 42 below Ely. In the Twin Cities, the overnight low was a balmy 11 below.

....."We saw the cold air coming, but you're always going to get those areas that are locally colder temperatures," he said.



It also doesn't say if this is the actual screen temp or the temp with wind chill added. It wouldn't be beyong journalist to exagerate to get a good story

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If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[skydyvr 0]

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Yep, global warming is such a problem.

I'm glad you agree

Nice way to twist someone's reply dude . . .

Do a google search on "ice shelfs getting colder" and see if you don't get some perspective on what's happening globally.

. . =(_8^(1)

[ScottishJohn 25]

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Yep, global warming is such a problem.

I'm glad you agree

Nice way to twist someone's reply dude . . .

That was tongue in cheek. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously.


I did google ice shelves getting colder.

http://www.christiansciencemonitor.com/2002/0118/p02s01-usgn.html

Dr. Dornan's study points to an average cooling of 0.7 degrees per decade from 1986 to 2000

Yet later on in the article he says.

Dornan holds that any cooling down south comes as cold comfort in the face of climate-change predictions because Antarctica's temperature record "is already included in the global averages that show the climate is warming."

Another scientist claims (Josephino Comiso, an atmospheric scientist )
Using satellite data for the months of January and July from 1979 to 1999, he reported a drop in the continent's average temperature that amounted to 0.4 degrees per decade.

Yet further on in the article he says.

Yet Dr. Comiso cautions that his results were uncertain to within 0.6 degrees, a margin that swamps the result itself.

Not really conclusive proof of an ice age.


The observed global temprature of the world is increasing.

Small local effects do not affect a global trend.


John

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If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers

[crozby 0]

What is so funny? Did you read the links? In case not, here is a summary of the evidence:

Independent researchers in different parts of the planet measuring the intensity of sunlight hitting the ground have evidence that there is a large fall in solar radiation over the whole planet 22% in Israel since 1950, 10% over the USA, nearly 30% in parts of the former Soviet Union, and even by 16% in parts of the British Isles. Although the effect varied greatly from place to place, overall the decline amounted to 1-2% globally per decade between the 1950s and the 1990s.

Different scientists using a measurement called 'pan evaporation' - how much water evaporates out of a known sized tub of water each day (evaporation primarily caused by photons pushing water molecules into the air) noticed a dropping in evaporation that corresponds to a reduction in solar radiation that matches the results found by the guys using photosensors.

A multimillion dollar international project using the northern and southern Maldive islands (northern islands are under an air stream heavily poluted by India, southern islands under clean air from the antarctic) confirmed previous studies.

The evidence is there. Google about a bit, see what scientific evidence there is and then decide if it sounds so silly after all.

[billvon 2,426]

>Bill, if they're wrong, how could it kill millions?

Rising sea levels. Climate change such that places that rely on rain get none - or places that have not had rain get rain, which causes flooding, mudslides and disease. Increase in cloud cover such that food cannot be grown as quickly, or temperature changes such that a staple crop (like rice) no longer grows well.

There are still a great many people who live on this planet and depend almost totally on the local quirks of their environment to grow food, recycle their wastes etc. Given a slow enough climate change, such people will be able to adapt (or will move out/die off at a slow enough rate that it doesn't bother us.) If we manage to force a rapid enough change, they may die off correspondingly rapidly.

Recently the entire world was grieving when 150,000 people were killed by a tsunami. Imagine a preventable change that kills even that many.

[billvon 2,426]

>.... I guess that's also why the news are reporting -54F in Minnesota.

Increasing average temps can cause decreased local temperatures as a result. If the ocean warmed up here, for example, we'd get more clouds, and our average (land) temperature would go down.