JohnRich 4 #1 November 24, 2004 In the news: Declaration of Independence Banned at Calif School A California teacher has been barred by his school from giving students documents from American history that refer to God -- including the Declaration of Independence.Source: Reuters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #2 November 24, 2004 Interesting. I wonder if this is an effort by some creative attorneys to get the issue in front of the Supreme Court under the guise of the first amendment since they refused to hear the other case. By the way, is this a public or private school? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #3 November 24, 2004 It's gotta be public - the "Cupertino Unified." I don't think this is an attmept to get the issue before the Supreme Court. I think it is an example of where this bullshit banning all reference to God or Christianity just goes too far. Not being allowed to teach history through documents because of a reference to God IS censorship. God help anyone who wants a student to read the Federalist Papers... Hmmm. I wonder if they'll soon strike the term "act of God" from the several sections of California Code in which it appears. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #4 November 24, 2004 QuoteGod help anyone who wants a student to read the Federalist Papers... Could you rephrase that please? i agree, it is ridiculous, based on that article. There's got to be more to it than that, though. I can't believe a school superintendant would do this, and a school board and schools attorneys would permit it to go to a lawsuit. My guess is that the teacher was really really really pushing god all the time and this extreme edict was only issued after he refused to temper himself after warnings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #5 November 24, 2004 Our Tax dollars at work! Unbelievable!These guys got way too much time on their hands!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #6 November 24, 2004 Sure, there's more to work at it than this. The question is whether this is surprising, kev. I'm not surprised. For all intents and purposes, the extremist secularists have begun the process of book burning - eliminating any and all reference to religion that is heresy to their viewpoints. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #7 November 24, 2004 True...and the christian fundamentalists have begun the process of pushing their religion on others. It's only through cases like this that test the extremes and boundaries that keep everything more or less balanced in a place for the good of the general public. I would think that you, as a part of the adversarial system would understand that. Why is this person's lawsuit less of a waste of taxpayer time and money than the atheists lawsuit to keep his son from being exposed to religion? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #8 November 24, 2004 The christian fundamentalists have been pushing their religion on people for centuries. I certainly agre with you regarding testing the extremes, and whether a governmental entity (a public school) can make religious content-based prior restraints on speech. There are plenty of lawsuits I believe are a waste of time and expense. Typically, those that seem to involve true constitutional issues are not. Anytime a suit is brought wherein individuals are being restrained from speech, or where there is a captive audience, I believe it is a good thing. I look forward to folowing this. I'm sure I'll learn plenty. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #9 November 24, 2004 There's no where near enough information in that article to tell if this is absurd, reasonable, or somewhere inbetween. It's probably somewhere in the middle. The principal could be way out of line, or it could be that this teacher is misusing his power as an authority figure to push a particular agenda. I'd be interested to know what prompted the principals actions. I get the impression that these restrictions were imposed on this specific teacher, and are not a general policy. I'd bet money that the teacher was doing something significant that crossed the line. The article doesn't say, but I'm sure more details will come out. One quote that I found alarming: "...the lawsuit, which was filed on Monday in U.S. District Court in San Jose and claims violations of Williams rights to free speech under the First Amendment." Does a teacher really have complete and unfettered free speech rights in an elementary school classroom context? I doubt it. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morcyk 0 #10 November 24, 2004 They tried to pull that shit on us when I was in middle school with the pledge of allegiance. The following year we were allowed to say it again, but there was a substitution phrase we could use in place of "under God". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #11 November 25, 2004 Ahhh...historical revisionism...liberals at work... Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #12 November 25, 2004 QuoteAhhh...historical revisionism...liberals at work... With the obvious exception of the pledge of allegiance, in which case the revisionism is endorsed and defended by conservatives. So much for blanket statements. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #13 November 25, 2004 I'm very strongly for separation of church and state. That said, that principal is damn stupid, so long as the teacher is using the documents in a historical context and not using them to further his own religious goals. Separation of church and state does not mean prentending religion doesn't exist. That's stupid and impractical. Separation of church and state does NOT mean getting every "god" reference out of schools. There is nothing wrong with referencing god in schools in a historical, anthropological, sociological, or literary context, provided there is an educational reason for referencing a deity. It's hard to talk about stuff like the salem witch trials, the puritans, Martin Luther, the crusades, etc, without bringing in god in some respect. It's hard to teach literature without discussing biblical imagery. God and religion do belong in our schools, so long as it's religion based in educational goals, not religious education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
headoverheels 291 #14 November 25, 2004 Not enough info in the article, but I'll assert that the teacher was always going out of his way to find Christian references to present in class, and management is just trying to keep him in bounds and on topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #15 November 25, 2004 Quotemanagement is just trying to keep him in bounds and on topic. Kinda like amputating an arm for a hang nail? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #16 November 25, 2004 This from one of the available articles: QuoteThe state's fifth-grade social studies standards include learning about the religious, economic, social and cultural origins of the United States. Williams said he thinks society has become hypersensitive to any reference of Christianity in the public arena, especially schools. He said he has taught students about Ramadan and Kwanzaa and applauded for those lessons. ``People are like, `Oh good, that's diversity,' '' he said. ``As soon as Christianity involved, it's separation of church and state.'' Do you think he's right? Are we hypersensitive to Christianity while ignoring other religions? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #17 November 25, 2004 Just a general question here: Could someone please explain to me how I am having religion shoved down my throat by the religious right? I just can't seem to find any examples in my daily life here. Before you go off saying, "That's because you're ONE of them!" Keep in mind that I haven't been to church in over 12 years and don't actively participate in any religious groups. I just don't see it. And to talk about the article, this shit is getting ridiculous. I remember in my HS World History class, we learned about Buddhism, Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism. I guess real diversity in learning is dead.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ltdiver 3 #18 November 25, 2004 QuoteAre we hypersensitive to Christianity while ignoring other religions? I believe that we should study all religions, and thus be more informed on the diversity this world is comprised of. Ignorance breeds nothing but intolerance. ltdiver Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #19 November 25, 2004 QuoteI believe that we should study all religions, and thus be more informed on the diversity this world is comprised of. Ignorance breeds nothing be intolerance. Given the significance of religion in world events both past and present, I couldnt agree more. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MC208B 0 #20 November 25, 2004 this kind of nonsense is just cementing the conservatives view that the left has gone too far. of course, this is also doing a LOT to keep conservatives in political power. More power to the left! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #21 November 25, 2004 Well said!Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #22 November 25, 2004 Thank you. I do believe our society is a little hyper-sensitive about christianity in schools, but I think the reason for that is the extreme fundamentalist agenda of abstinence only sex-ed and putting the bible into science classes. I've never heard of any other religion in this country wanting to teach their creation myth in science class. The fundamentalist christians go too far when they want their beliefs taught as fact or as a proper scientific option, and the people on the other side of the debate sometimes go too far when they push back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #23 November 25, 2004 QuoteI'm very strongly for separation of church and state...There is nothing wrong with referencing god in schools in a historical, anthropological, sociological, or literary context, provided there is an educational reason for referencing a deity. Excellent common sense! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #24 November 25, 2004 QuoteThe fundamentalist christians go too far when they want their beliefs taught as fact or as a proper scientific option, and the people on the other side of the debate sometimes go too far when they push back. You are entitled to your opinion of what should be taught in schools, but you can't sit on a high horse while condemning others beliefs. We teach children that the world was believed to be flat and some people probably still believe it, but we can't forget how we got here. Your myth was widely believed for a long time and Darwin took a lot of shit for his new ideas. The fact that the myth was based on judeo-christian roots does not make it any less relevant than the shape of the world in understanding how we go to where we are. Do you ridicule people for believing a lamp stayed lit for too long or pigs are diseased animals? Science does not explain either. What about people who do not drink? That includes Muslims and fundamentalists and is based solely in faith. It's rather funny that the left teaches tolerance when it comes to other cultures, fringe religions and made-up holidays like Kwanzaa, and at the same time, ridicules values of the judeo-christian roots of this country and yes, the existence of God. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #25 November 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteAhhh...historical revisionism...liberals at work... With the obvious exception of the pledge of allegiance, in which case the revisionism is endorsed and defended by conservatives. So much for blanket statements. -Josh In text books in MA pretty much saying that American Indians were and are peaceful people who tried to avoid battles with the European settlers. Futher they go on to say it was the Europeans who provoked battles with the indians etc.... Also read about the museums on the indians in western MA.... See what the liberals did there!!!! It might surprise you!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
