Automobile black boxes.

[rickjump1 0]

Imagine you are on the open road with zero traffic and that little kid in you says, "Let's see how fast this critter will go." Passing through 85 mph, your cell phone rings and a voice says, "Mr. Trenchmouth, slow down. You have exceeded the speed limit. Sorry sir, but we must report this incident to your insurance company and the state police. Have a nice day." All the time you are thinking, "Screw technology and this black box." Is this the future freedom of the road?

A search with Goggle revealed that car manufactures here in the US are putting black boxes (like the ones in larger airplanes) in some cars. "Black boxes can record information data such as engine/vehicle speed (5 seconds before impact), throttle position(s),and even the state of the driver's seat belt switch(on/off)." It goes on and on. " In the future, a gps signal will trigger a 911 number that will relay information to the ambulance crew revealing the location of the vehicle and if it were a front or side impact".

Good or bad, our government would like to see black boxes in all vehicles.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Imagine you are on the open road with zero traffic and that little kid in you says, "Let's see how fast this critter will go." Passing through 85 mph, your cell phone rings and a voice says, "Mr. Trenchmouth, slow down. You have exceeded the speed limit. Sorry sir, but we must report this incident to your insurance company and the state police. Have a nice day." All the time you are thinking, "Screw technology and this black box." Is this the future freedom of the road?

A search with Goggle revealed that car manufactures here in the US are putting black boxes (like the ones in larger airplanes) in some cars. "Black boxes can record information data such as engine/vehicle speed (5 seconds before impact), throttle position(s),and even the state of the driver's seat belt switch(on/off)." It goes on and on. " In the future, a gps signal will trigger a 911 number that will relay information to the ambulance crew revealing the location of the vehicle and if it were a front or side impact".

Good or bad, our government would like to see black boxes in all vehicles.

It's interesting to me that you are bringing this up right now. I just finished reading a newsletter I get from my homeowners insurance company. They state that 75% of all 2004 model cars have these "black boxes" in them and about 15% of all automobiles on the road today have them. They record speed, seatbelt usage and airbag performance according to Erie Insurance Company.

[AggieDave 6]

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They state that 75% of all 2004 model cars have these "black boxes" in them and about 15% of all automobiles on the road today have them. They record speed, seatbelt usage and airbag performance according to Erie Insurance Company.

You know what the black box recorded in 98% of all wrecks right before impact?

"Oh shit!"

You know what the black boxes recorded in Oklahoma?

"hey yall, hold my beer and watch this shit."


You know what the black boxes recorded in Florida?

"Hey Edna, is that a farmer's market?"

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gravitymaster 0]

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They state that 75% of all 2004 model cars have these "black boxes" in them and about 15% of all automobiles on the road today have them. They record speed, seatbelt usage and airbag performance according to Erie Insurance Company.

You know what the black box recorded in 98% of all wrecks right before impact?

"Oh shit!"

You know what the black boxes recorded in Oklahoma?

"hey yall, hold my beer and watch this shit."


You know what the black boxes recorded in Florida?

"Hey Edna, is that a farmer's market?"

Yes but they may prove alien abductions are real.

[jumpinfarmer 0]

Keep the black boxes in the airplanes. I don't want any record of some of the shit I do.

[kelpdiver 2]

It has already happened...iirc, most notably in England. Maybe even here.

You put a black box in that tracks your speed in exchange for reduced insurance rates. It is definitely something for all red blooded Americans to fear.

[rickjump1 0]

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Keep the black boxes in the airplanes. I don't want any record of some of the shit I do.

How about a cockpit voice recorder for your Harley?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[narcimund 0]

"Sir, did you know your taillight is burned out? ... Hmmm, yes.... Please step out of the car. We'd like to review the last 15 minutes of conversation that occurred in your car."

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[billvon 2,400]

Yep. Some manufacturers are talking about OBD III, a variant of OBD II that could report your emissions status over the air to a central computer. The upside is that you'd never have to get an emissions test again.

BTW most modern cars HAVE black boxes in them that record such information; right now it's just hard to get at, and is available only via the CAN bus (or whatever the diagnostic bus on your car is) with special diagnostic tools. Some insurance companies are offering incentives to people to allow them to install a recorder that is easier to read; if you use it (and you drive conservatively) you get a pretty significant break on your car insurance. The device has to be removed periodically and connected to a PC to send the data to the insurance company. If you don't send it in you don't get the break.

Other cars already have a GPS and a wireless modem; OnStar is one such system.

[rickjump1 0]

Out of the Sep issue of Popular Science- "Rental companies are using telematics to enforce their contracts. A jury recently ruled in favor of Acme Rent-a-Car, which used GPS data to ding a renter $450 for speeding- though he hadn't been stopped by police."

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Out of the Sep issue of Popular Science- "Rental companies are using telematics to enforce their contracts. A jury recently ruled in favor of Acme Rent-a-Car, which used GPS data to ding a renter $450 for speeding- though he hadn't been stopped by police."

Also to ding renters for taking the vehicles out of state, or to other off limits areas. (The dirt road section on the southwest part of Maui comes to mind, or the Summit route on the big island)

[rickjump1 0]

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Out of the Sep issue of Popular Science- "Rental companies are using telematics to enforce their contracts. A jury recently ruled in favor of Acme Rent-a-Car, which used GPS data to ding a renter $450 for speeding- though he hadn't been stopped by police."

Also to ding renters for taking the vehicles out of state, or to other off limits areas. (The dirt road section on the southwest part of Maui comes to mind, or the Summit route on the big island)

Also out of Popular Science, "Road Safety International sells aftermarket black boxes that beep insistently when drivers exceed a preset speed or G-force. Parents can download data from the units to see how their teenagers have been drivilng."

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[flyingferret 0]

Bill is speaking my language...wow, did not see that one coming

As a preface I work for a company that makes exactly these devices for commercial vehicles. There is a very vast amount of information involved, it would take me hours to explain the entire history of the industry. But here is a summary, that I could back up without a doubt given the time:

OBCs (On Board Computers, in the business) will be mandated in commercial vehicles, it is only a matter of time. Why? Safety and fuel, it is as simple as that. In the commercial sphere the cost for fleet owners vs. the increased efficiency and evidence in court is phenomenal. My product can tell you if your vehicle had headlights, wipers, brakes applied, trailer temp, RPM, Speed, etc at point of impact. This translates literally into billions in the courtroom. Could this apply to the personal sector? Someday it might. How would you like to prove you did nothing wrong?

In our industry, people love to hate our system. But honestly, most of it is Big Brother hype. For a few reasons: the system puts the spotlight on the good drivers who normally struggle to make more than the bad drivers. Obviously this does not apply to personal transportation. Another reason is that most of these systems are passive. The information is extracted at the end of a trip. There are models with cell, satellite, etc, but the costs keep most people from buying these; you have to really want to know where the vehicle is to pay for it. So, the real time monitoring is not really what 'black box' refers to.

So, I think it is an obvious choice for commercial vehicles, it very literally makes the roads safer. And if the DOT is at all serious about continuing that progess, OBCs will be mandating within in this decade. This can only be good in my opinion. While much it will not be real time, consider all the hazardous cargo just hauled by a company like Schlumberger alone. If you were answering for it would you want to know where it was?

While this point only applies to personal transport to a degree, could it have uses? Locating an elderly relative upon an accident event? Being able to prove your loved one on life support was not at fault? etc.

As I said, I work in the industry, but if I did not believe in it, I would not be working in it. If you have questions ask.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[kingbunky 3]

...and now it looks real:

black boxes mandatory by 2015? i'm not american, but stuff you guys do tends to trickle north, and this sounds kinda scary.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[AggieDave 6]

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...and now it looks real:

black boxes mandatory by 2015? i'm not american, but stuff you guys do tends to trickle north, and this sounds kinda scary.

My last post in this thread was 8 years ago. Since then I have become a collision reconstructionist. I've got news for you, many vehicles have retained various amounts of information for a very long time. Some of the information that has been retained in vehicles includes the delta-v data for the 5 seconds prior to a collision, vehicle systems status (if there were any active codes being thrown), sometimes seatbelt use and the status of operable systems like headlights.

Are you now curious as to what current and past vehicles are CDR supported?

http://www.cdr-system.com/pdf/CDR_v5.0_Vehicle_Coverage_List.pdf

I bet you'll be very surprised!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kingbunky 3]

i realize that they've been recording and retaining periods prior to impact. i also remember reading something years ago about (i believe) cadillac trying to void someone's warranty based on info from a recorder and that got tossed for some reaosn or other. now, it's being made mandatory, and you'll be able to be tracked by law enforcement with a warrant. seems like something that could be abused.

just seems very big-brotherish.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[tkhayes 126]

black boxes will have a massive effect on car insurance rates and may very well cause social change in driving habits to occur.

some good some bad.

The insurance industry already has a pretty good handle on what driving habits are like, what causes accidents and what risk groups there are.

nothing removes speculation like real data.....

[popsjumper 2]

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"Sir, did you know your taillight is burned out? ... Hmmm, yes.... Please step out of the car. We'd like to review the last 15 minutes of conversation that occurred in your car."

"Hey asshole! Pass the damned joint!

"Yeah, yeah, yeah...just as soon as you pass over the mirror and straw...asshole"

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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black boxes will have a massive effect on car insurance rates....

I have to assume that you mean rates will go down.

I am more pessimistic than you. I don't think rates would be lowered any more, if any at all, than what would be necessary for the value of advertising, "we are good guys...we give you a discount!".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AggieDave 6]

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Just curious, but have you ever seen this data submitted as evidence in court?

Yes. It is very common.

Break this down into two court events that typically occur when there is a fatality accident: the criminal case and then the civil case.

The civil case is unique in that it typically doesn't go after an individual, they go after whomever has the biggest pockets and can shoulder some of the blame. For instance I know of one that sued a national tire chain due to a local (to one of the parties) putting new tires on the front of a pickup instead of the rear like the owner had asked. The owner didn't notice and a few days later the truck lost traction on a 70mph wet roadway, struck another vehicle head on and killed the 8yr old in the back seat of the car. The CDR data was presented in both the grand jury proceedings as well as the civil proceedings, but in this case it was to show that the driver of the truck had not been traveling at an excessive speed.

There are a few things to note, though, about how that data is collected. If it is going to be evidential in nature (used in a criminal trial), then a search warrant has to be signed by a judge to retrieve that data. A police officer can't just walk up to the car, plug in and get the data.

The following civil trial has two attorneys who use their own expert witnesses to reconstruct the accident. Since in those cases the roadway evidence is long gone (years can sometimes pass in the process), the experts will rely on the public information obtained from the criminal trial. That public information would include scale diagrams of the roadway evidence. Then those experts will sometimes use that data by its self or they will go make their own scale diagram of the roadway with total stations and plug in the police's data onto their scene in their software (like ARS360, FX or MapScenes).

Since the vehicles involved are typically totaled or had been retained as evidence for the criminal trial, they will sometimes go to the vehicles and attempt to retrieve the data after the fact (if it is a vehicle that supports data retrieval). Depending on what has occurred, that data may not be available anymore.

If the data isn't available, then other methods will be used to calculate impact speeds, including crush analysis (which uses government crash data to determine the impact speeds of the vehicles through the amount of damage to structural pieces of a vehicle).

CDR is going to be heavily used in future accident reconstructions, since the advent of ABS systems have removed a lot of the pre-impact speed calculations by removing the roadway evidence (skid marks). Post impact speeds are still going to be available due to departure angles and none rotating tires, so impact speeds through momentum analysis or by using vectors will still be able to be calculated.

The pre-impact speeds are needed to be able to do time-distance analysis and also to create delta-V charts.

Personally I find all of this very interesting and exciting, but then again, it is a big part of my professional life. It also has taken a significant amount of training, testing and time to build this skill set and get the certifications to do this.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Just curious, but have you ever seen this data submitted as evidence in court?

Bill Janklow, a South Dakota politician, was convicted of manslaughter based in part on data from a black box. He ran a stop sign, traveling at 63-64 mph, and hit and killed a motorcyclist, who was traveling on the cross road and did not have a stop sign.

I'm sure there are other examples, but yes data from black boxes has been used in court.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[tkhayes 126]

don't assume anything please. I expect rates for bad drivers will skyrocket with a documented path of repeated and dangerous driving patterns recorded.....

It's not like insurance companies do anything really try to lower rates other than being forced to by regulation or sometimes competition.

[ryoder 1,384]

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CDR is going to be heavily used in future accident reconstructions, since the advent of ABS systems have removed a lot of the pre-impact speed calculations by removing the roadway evidence (skid marks).

Now that is interesting!
I'd never thought of it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,400]

>I am more pessimistic than you. I don't think rates would be lowered any more

I think they will be lowered for some and raised for others.

Actuarial tables tell insurance companies what their risks are. 18 year old driver? You have a 2% chance of having to pay out over the next year. 34 year old driver? It's .4%. That's why 18 year olds pay more.

Of course, the insurance company doesn't advertise the 18 year old's rates, it advertises its lowest rate. And that's what people often look at when buying insurance. So that company has a strong incentive to advertise ONE very low price. Maybe it's their 34 year old price because they know they're not going to be paying out on that.

Now they have more data available. So maybe they will offer an even lower price for a 34 year old driving a Volvo with ABS and ASC in Vista, CA because such people almost never get into accidents, and when they do it's never their fault.

(Of course with more accurate data it's pretty much assured that the more risky drivers will see an increase in premiums as well.)

[rehmwa 2]

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It's not like insurance companies do anything really try to lower rates other ,,,,,, sometimes competition.

that damn competition - I'd be jaded too - those damn greedy insurance companies trying to keep and attract those good drivers.

it's almost like they think that good drivers don't cause accidents as much as bad drivers

we need regulation to ensure that bad drivers only pay the same as good drivers

we need to kill competition

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants