Biometric ID Cards in the UK

[Red_Skydiver 0]

Do you have an opinion regarding the introduction of biometric ID cards within the UK? Good thing or a bad thing?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3654621.stm

[piisfish 135]

As long as you don't have "problems" with society in general it's OK...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Red_Skydiver 0]

What do you mean by "problems"?

[piisfish 135]

like kind of legal issues or stuf... Like people who would refuse to have their ADN sampled... For the moment I would accept as I am sure I have no issues with legality concerning rape, murder or other stuff which I can not mention here otherwise the post will be deleted or the thread locked.

ed. to add for US residents : I voted YES, the simple reason is that to get in the USA without a visa as from october 2004 (originally scheduled date) non US residents need to have a machine readable passport MRP with biometric data. Please note the total capharnaum which rised last year when the requirement was just a MRP from october 2003... All US embassies needed minimum 3months to deliver a visa... Was easier to get in former USSR

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[vt1977 0]

Aside from some possible slightly paranoid "big brother" reservations I can't say I'm all that bothered one way or another.

However... I would STRONGLY object to paying for such a thing. If the government wants to introduce them then they ought to be free for all - not yet another stealth tax. After all, don't we keep getting told that by having ID cards it will save millions in benefit fraud etc? I just think that being forced to pay £40 + for a plastic card that I don't really care about one way or another is a bit much.

Vicki

[nigel99 144]

I don't see how they will solve most of the problems we have in the UK - illegal workers - there's already a mechanism in place (NI numbers) but employers who want to circumvent the system already do. Many countries already have ID cards and it doesn't stop limit terrorism.

ID cards do form a good means for the authorities to abuse people though, look at Zimbabwe - food aid is restricted to people who have ID cards - ID cards are only issued to people who are members of the main political party...

So I would prefer not to have them. To be effective it also means that it must be law to carry ID at all times - which is a pain...

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Red_Skydiver 0]

I suspect the new card will be introduced and it will be developed in time so that all of your details are on it. It'll be your passport, driving licence, gym membership, National Insurance card, debit/credit card, tube/bus passetc etc. You won't be able to buy anything without the card, your iris or finger print will be scanned at the checkout to ensure the card is in fact yours. "They" will know everything about you, where you go, what you eat, how much money you have, how you travel, where to and when....

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"They" can already find this stuff out about you, and more, pretty quickly.

I've not made up my mind over this card thingie yet.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[nigel99 144]

The "smartcard" specification already has the capability of storing your photo/fingerprint on your standard credit card btw - its just not utilised, it was around about 5 years ago when I did some development work using smartcards.

I think the fully integrated system will be some time off - due to system integration issues and the data protection act. Unfortunately this government has taken a very dismissive attitude towards the data protection act (every time I fly to the states my "Rights" under UK law are violated by the UK/US governments So I wouldn't trust any government to not abuse the information and look at bypassing the data protection act - but hopefully parliament will slow Blunkett down abit...

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Malfunction 0]

Absolutely NOT! I am not from the UK, and I still HATE the idea of a Biometric ID card. I'm sorry, but my DNA is MY business, and unless a warrant is obtained, I will not give it out freely. It is my right, it is WHO I AM, and by giving out my DNA freely, I only open the door for more freedoms being taken. Furthermore, did people forget that CLONING is now happening more than we know? Sure, it is only animals, and those animals have slight defects, but science is increasing, and before you know it, there WILL BE CLONED HUMANS. With a Biometric ID card, any government official has access to YOUR PERSONAL DNA, the very string that makes you unique, and in time, can clone at will....
Call me a Conspiracy Theorist, Cynic, Skeptic, whatever you want, but it is like my Social Security number, I don't give it out NOR make it readily available. You think that Biometric ID cards will PROTECT you? I feel that it will make fraudulant investigations more easily accomplished, corrupt government officials will now have DNA from EVERYONE at the touch of a button (no longer just registered criminals), and the very fiber that makes humans unique will be available to everyone. Anyone ever see Gattica? That could be our future if this goes through.
I say stop it at all costs. Government should NOT have that kind of power.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[Red_Skydiver 0]

Cloning human embryos may be upon us - see this link for a UK scientist who wants to clone them

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3645037.stm

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Calm down to a frenzy Malfunction, biometric data currently proposed consists of fingerprints, and or retina scans. These are easily verified in the field, or via any number of portable devices. DNA currently is not.

If someone really wants your DNA, they can take it from you without you knowing, in restaurants, bars, the barbers, your hotel bed linen, even from your trash.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kiltboy 0]

I voted no even though I live outside the UK (I am a UK citizen).

I'm assuming that the Embassy in Washington will be able to provide me with this card if it becomes mandatory as I'll need it when I go home to visit family.

My best view on this is that its a way to curb fraud but it is aimed at stealing government money i.e. benefits, tuition or services. I'd hate it to be a requirement if I was to charge something to a credit card. I wouldn't be overjoyed if the police were to ask for it at random but that could depend on circumstances and how the officer was to ask for it.

David

[Malfunction 0]

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If someone really wants your DNA, they can take it from you without you knowing, in restaurants, bars, the barbers, your hotel bed linen, even from your trash.

Doesn't that bother you? It bothers me. Then to have the ability to put that kind of information into a card that is carried around with you... and can get lost and fall into wrong hands... I would just rather someone WORK for that kind of information....

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Calm down to a frenzy Malfunction

This is one topic that really bothers me. Anything that infringes on my freedoms just gets my blood boiling, especially when something can be done about it but noone listens.

I have family, as many people do, that fought and died for this country to give us freedoms (do you really think that something starting in UK will stay over there and not come across the ocean?). I have family, as many do, that lost lives to keep that freedom and to do away with opression. I will not simply stand by and watch as a stupid government department decides that our DNA is now public information. I refuse to give up any more freedoms to "protect" citiczens from a danger that isn't so imminent, and I will not let scare tactics by a foolish government system lure me into a false sence of security. ID cards will not provide security, and I refuse to carry something that foolish under the pretense of security.

I would rather be protrayed as emotional, passionate, even frenzied on topics like this rather than be looked at as a lemming that will just follow the crowd. Sorry, I am not a sheep.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it.
- Voltaire

[mr2mk1g 10]

Dude, seriously. This is NOTHING to do with DNA. Biometric does not = DNA. Biometric data is measurements of bits of your body. These cards are going to have a retinal scan and fingerprints NO DNA.

Yes there is the ability for the card to hold some DNA data (I suspect an entire copy would be far far too big for the chip - DNA fingerprints are actually a tiny section of your DNA). But then it's possible for my DNA to be stored and carried arround on my IPAQ or an IPOD - are you against those too?

There would be no point having DNA data on an ID card as varification would require sending off samples to a lab as opposed to a "simple" electronic reader as is the case with the other two. It would be no more secure way of determining who you are and would be far more expensive to implement - ie it aint gonna happen.

Even if it was included, with the incription there is going to be on these cards a theif would have to "work" to get hold of the data on there. You better believe that anyone who has the ability to crack the chips on these cards also has the ability to take your DNA without you even knowing it.

Everyone also seems to be forgetting that these cards are NOT supposed to protect anyone from terrorists. The current measures predate 9/11 and are primeraly designed to prevent ID theft and the subsequent theft of public money and services such as our free health care, free schooling, free housing, social security payments etc. These cards are designed to help a fight against illegal imigration NOT terrorism. Ok, MI5 recon a third of all terrorists also have false identities so it may help against them, but that's a fringe benefit and it's not being touted by the government - only the papers.

[akarunway 1]

If someone really wants your DNA, they can take it from you without you knowing, in restaurants, bars, the barbers, your hotel bed linen, even from your trash.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ And how do they prove a hair or spit or whatever came from me w/o a warrant or LYING govt. witnesses. Or God forbid a secret video. This shit is getting out of hand and as Barney says "We need to NIP IT IN THE BUD"

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[markd_nscr986 0]

Just more government intrusion into your everyday lives......oh wait a minute,you Brits are accustomed to that already.

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[jakee 1,257]

The thing that bothers me is that retina scans are not accurate enough to guarantee that a pool of 1,000 scans will not produce any false matches, let alone a pool of 65,000,000.
Also, fingerprinting has never been proven to be a 100% accurate method of identification. Some recent preliminary studies even suggest that one persons fingerprint may change enough in 5 / 10 years as to be unrecognisable.
If these cards are introduced will we have to pay for upgrades every 5 years or so?

Of course what also bothers me a lot is the suggestion that once ID cards are introduced it may become compulsory to carry them at all times. OK it has been said that this also would be subject to a further commons vote but will that hold true?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skydyvr 0]

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Absolutely NOT! I am not from the UK, and I still HATE the idea of a Biometric ID card. I'm sorry, but my DNA is MY business, and unless a warrant is obtained, I will not give it out freely. It is my right, it is WHO I AM, and by giving out my DNA freely, I only open the door for more freedoms being taken.

Relax man! It's no big deal.

Just remember to live an approved lifestyle, and always say nice things about your government, and everything will be fine. Really, nothing to worry about!

. . =(_8^(1)

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"LYING govt."
And we all know there is no such thing as a lieing government.

Okay, we're agreed that the cards will NOT carry DNA information. But what if they carried other stuff, that might prove useful. An access reference to say a medical database that might contain information such as next of kin, allergies to medicines, blood types , whether or not the card carrier is an organ donor etc.
Could it be that there is possibly some benefit in this?

And to those who believe that this scheme will be the start of of the erosion of your rightly defended freedoms, this type of card is in widespread use in a number of European countries, in many cases such cards have been commonplace since the war. Its already too late to nip it in the bud.

Personally, I'm still mulling things over and haven't gathered enough opinion to make my mind up as to whether this is a good or a bad thing.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Dude, seriously. This is NOTHING to do with DNA. Biometric does not = DNA. Biometric data is measurements of bits of your body. These cards are going to have a retinal scan and fingerprints NO DNA.

This makes twice now I've seen this "assurance" that it has nothing to do with DNA. But didn't I just recently read that some dude high up in the British government (I forgot his post) has been saying he DOES want the government to compile all British subjects' DNA? This was something I read about a month or two ago.

Even if this biometric card shit comes to pass (I voted "NO"), do you really believe it will be very long before people in government say, "Oh, you know what, we've rethought it, and yes, we DO want your DNA on this thingie, too"?

Puhlease. It's coming. And as usual, they'll tell you that it's to keep you safe, and as usual, the only efffects you'll ever see of it will be when it SCREWS you somehow -- but never actually makes you any safer.
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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Dude, pretty soon all visitors to the US will need biometric data on their passports to enter your country. Except Canadians of course.
Puhleese, its already happening to you guys too.

I say again, biometric data does not necessarily mean DNA, its far more difficult to verify than a retina scan, a fingerprint, or even a photograph of your face.

"Citizens from the 27 countries will still be allowed to visit the US without a visa, although they will now have to be fingerprinted and photographed before they enter. "
From http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3595221.stm

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[mr2mk1g 10]

True - there is a national DNA database. This is a collection of DNA data taken from people convicted of serious crims and is available to the police force. There were murmers about rolling out the idea to include everyone but that was quickly shut down from what I remember (if someone has evidece of the idea being run with though please point it out).

Its also true that this sort of data could be added later, but that's true of everything in life. Beisdes - it would take a big change in the current card simply to fit your entire DNA profile on there - its a MASSIVE amount of data remember.

[Tonto 1]

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"They" can already find this stuff out about you, and more, pretty quickly.

Really? How?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Red_Skydiver 0]

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But didn't I just recently read that some dude high up in the British government (I forgot his post) has been saying he DOES want the government to compile all British subjects' DNA? This was something I read about a month or two ago.


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The UK has a DNA database already. Anyone charged with a crime has a DNA sample taken and stored.

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