New Jumper Gear to avoid

[dvlax40 3]

I know this will touch off a host of complaints on all sides of the aisle but is there a resource that dictates what gear to avoid or what time periods are good for new jumpers that are looking at used gear.

IE javelin containers from 90-96 or PD mains from 2000-2001.
(these are not literal examples, just reference)

i get every rig has its fair share of problems but it seems like some of them from certain time frames are best left to more experienced jumpers, or others (like older dolphins/eclipses) are not as good of deals as they seem due to issues/not being able to get parts etc.

[gowlerk 1,914]

No problem getting Dolphin parts at all. Most Eclipse parts can be substituted with Vector parts. The is no such resource that I am aware of. Nothing beats getting to know more about gear by asking questions. And developing good relationships with local riggers.

The common big brand names hold their value better. The most important factor in older used gear is condition. And of course fit. It is difficult for a new jumper to find and assess used gear. Find a person with knowledge that you can trust. If you can.

And fill out your profile with as much information as you can. That way someone here who is local to you may see who you are and help you out. It's a small friendly community here. (for the most part)

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DougH 270]

I would avoid older reserves, Swift or Swift+, Micro Ravens, etc. They don't fly as well as better designed reserves like the PD-R, Smart, etc. One accident one a reserve landing and any money saved will evaporate.

Avoid no longer supported AAD's, for example the Argus. There is a good chance it can't be packed into your rig.

On mains avoid older F111 mains unless the jump numbers are low, it was stored in a closet properly, and your wingloading is going to be low. Honestly unless money is super tight try to get a newer 9 cell ZP main like a Pilot, Sabre2, or a Safire 2.

Also check with other jumpers and riggers before you pull the trigger on anything. Everyone seems to think that their old outdated gear is worth its weight in gold.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Unstable 8]

Quote

Also check with other jumpers and riggers before you pull the trigger on anything. Everyone seems to think that their old outdated gear is worth its weight in gold.

This statement hit true to me ~ I'm an active rigger and I have ~4 rigs for sale, jumpers getting out of the sport, but I can't find a buyer because the owners want to sell them for the same amount they purchased them 10 years ago.

My biggest advice is to work with riggers and jumpers in the area and don't spend any money without talking to them first. They know you, they know the conditions you'll be jumping in, etc. It's nice to go out and buy all brand new stuff and pay $6500+, but we all know that in reality, good used gear will be a better fit for a new jumper looking to find their way in the sport. Even an F-111 (really 0-3cfm low-bulk fabric) canopies will be a good fit, provided the canopy was well kept and with less than ~400 jumps, and kept at or below 1:1 WL.

=========Shaun ==========

[dvlax40 3]

All great advice!

TBH the big things i hear are:

1. Stay away from racers
2. stay away from dolphins
3. stay away from wings
4 older javelins come apart all the time
5. F111 is bad
6. 7 cells are bad.


Its hard to sort through the bias and self preference vs actual figures of performance and safety especially as a new guy.

thanks again guys!

[gowlerk 1,914]

dvlax40

All great advice!

TBH the big things i hear are:

1. Stay away from racers
2. stay away from dolphins
3. stay away from wings
4 older javelins come apart all the time
5. F111 is bad
6. 7 cells are bad.


Its hard to sort through the bias and self preference vs actual figures of performance and safety especially as a new guy.

thanks again guys!

There are some traces of good reason for most of those things. But they are all only part truths. Except #4. Javelins don't "come apart", they are sturdy and well built rigs. Around here there are several very old ones in hard use as student gear.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Unstable 8]

Sorry, I can't help myself on this one. My comments are in italics.

Quote

1. Stay away from racers If you have a rigger who can pack them, they're good, safe, reliable rigs
2. stay away from dolphins See above
3. stay away from wings see #1 and #2 (I'm repeating myself)
4 older javelins come apart all the time Generally true for all rigs when they reach the end of their life
5. F111 is bad Then why are reserves made our of 0-3 cfm material? 'F-111' (not technically called that, but we'll use it for the time being) is great when new, but it wears over time and after ~500 jumps becomes porous and loses performance. Manufacturers all still use it for reserves, for bottom skins and ribs (I just bought a canopy that is 1/2 'f-111'), accuracy parachutes, and demo rigs
6. 7 cells are bad. 7-cells are great, that is why the Spectre is one of the most popular canopies of all time.

=========Shaun ==========

[DougH 270]

dvlax40

All great advice!

TBH the big things i hear are:

1. Stay away from racers not all riggers like them but they are safe, that being said you need to fully understand the implications of the double RSL design
2. stay away from dolphins Bull, they were designed by one of the founders of the jav. They are no frills but strong. They have been bought by peregrin manf. inc. who is located across the river from my DZ in CT. They can upgrade the container if it has velcro, but they are probably swamped with their new glide canopy
3. stay away from wings again mostly bull, although wings do tend to wear faster from a cosmetic standpoint they are safe rigs
4 older javelins come apart all the time no they don't, but they do suffer from RSL velcro reserve riser damage. Be on the look out
5. F111 is bad F111 is bad when over loaded, or worn out. But a modern ZP canopy is multiples better for fun jumping than an older F111 canopy
6. 7 cells are bad. more bullshit


Its hard to sort through the bias and self preference vs actual figures of performance and safety especially as a new guy.

thanks again guys!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[sundevil777 93]

The swift plus reserves are fine canopies. I have a ride on a 175 and the 225 versions. Great openings and great landings. It should be known there is no 200 version, despite that number being on the label for the 175 (weight limit). I don't remember there being any bad reputation due to some incident, just an AD or SB for certain serial numbers.

The original swift (5 cell) is not a good idea, I agree.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[DougH 270]

sundevil777

The swift plus reserves are fine canopies. I have a ride on a 175 and the 225 versions. Great openings and great landings. It should be known there is no 200 version, despite that number being on the label for the 175 (weight limit). I don't remember there being any bad reputation due to some incident, just an AD or SB for certain serial numbers.

The original swift (5 cell) is not a good idea, I agree.

At what loading? Were you jumping it?

Either way if it was advice I was giving to a friend, unless it was the difference between not being able to afford to finish putting together the rig, the few extra hundred dollars on a Smart or PDR will leave you much better off. The Swift Plus isn't getting any younger!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[gowlerk 1,914]

DougH

***The swift plus reserves are fine canopies. I have a ride on a 175 and the 225 versions. Great openings and great landings. It should be known there is no 200 version, despite that number being on the label for the 175 (weight limit). I don't remember there being any bad reputation due to some incident, just an AD or SB for certain serial numbers.

The original swift (5 cell) is not a good idea, I agree.

At what loading? Were you jumping it?

Either way if it was advice I was giving to a friend, unless it was the difference between not being able to afford to finish putting together the rig, the few extra hundred dollars on a Smart or PDR will leave you much better off. The Swift Plus isn't getting any younger!


The Swift Plus 175 is rated for landing 200 lbs. I am here to say that it does fine at that loading. I've landed them somewhat over that twice. (look at my avatar for a picture of one with a couple line twists) There are no SBs for them, that was the original 5 cell Swift, not the Plus. A quick look at the all the Kevlar reinforcing should make anyone realize that they are quite strong. They do not pack very small however. They take more room than a PD176, and they are likely stronger as well. The PD will give you a better flare, because they are a more efficient airfoil with less drag and more speed. But I'd bet dollars to donuts the descent rate and total speed on a PD is higher. In other words if I had my choice, if conscious I'd prefer to be under the PD, if incapacitated I'd prefer the Swift Plus. PDs are also getting older. You can import one 20 years old for not that much more than a Swift Plus now. So the price difference is less than it used to be. (unless you are of the opinion that there is something wrong with 20 yo nylon!)

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

The Swift Plus 175 is rated for landing 200 lbs. I am here to say that it does fine at that loading. I've landed them somewhat over that twice. (look at my avatar for a picture of one with a couple line twists) There are no SBs for them, that was the original 5 cell Swift, not the Plus.

The original swift SB was about the ribs not being the right shape so it would affect the airfoil effectiveness. There was an SB on the swift plus concerning the cascades - bartacks being possibly too wide to grab the trapped line or something like that.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[dvlax40 3]

Thanks guys! these are great answers! its nice to see some of the myths and misinformation dispelled

[riggerrob 558]

sundevil777

Quote

The Swift Plus 175 is rated for landing 200 lbs. I am here to say that it does fine at that loading. I've landed them somewhat over that twice. (look at my avatar for a picture of one with a couple line twists) There are no SBs for them, that was the original 5 cell Swift, not the Plus.

The original swift SB was about the ribs not being the right shape so it would affect the airfoil effectiveness. There was an SB on the swift plus concerning the cascades - bartacks being possibly too wide to grab the trapped line or something like that.

..................................................

Yes, I have re packed a few 5-cell Swifts that had "Service Bulletin number xxxxxx" stamped on their tails.

I have inspected and re packed hundreds of Swift Plus reserves and never found a loose bar-tack.

Both generations of Swifts were among the best reserves made in their day .... but that day ended a couple of decades ago. Times have changed. For example, back then nobody loaded main canopies at 1 pound per square foot, so nobody expected Swift reserves to land softly when loaded heavier than 1/1.
IOW Any one who loads a Swift reserve, or a Raven reserve, or an early Lightning, most 1980s-vintage canopies made of F-111 fabric (aka: zero to 3 cubic feet per minute) is a stupid, fat, white man who is doomed to meet lots of para-medics and nurses and surgeons and x-ray technicians and physio-therapists, etc.

Oooops!
Did I sound biased or opinionated or out-spoken or politically-incorrect??????

Returning to the original question ... if you visit the Parachute Industry Association or Australian Parachute Federation or Canadian Sports Parachuting Association's websites, you will find lists of Service Bulletins, Airworthiness Directives, special inspections, etc.
If any offers to sell you gear mentioned in any of those SB, ADs, etc. - and a rigger has not noted the SB on the packing data card - walk away.

[sammielu 3]

Avoid:
-any gear not approved for your use/body size by a knowledgeable instructor
-any gear not inspected by a rigger (have it shipped to them, escrow style, for inspection)
-buying components before you have a rig to put them into

If you're itching for new shiny stuff, buy:
-altimeters (visual and audible)
-helmet
-jumpsuit that fits you properly

Then research, rent, borrow, try things out, try on friends rigs/helmets/suits while you shop. Keep jumping, as much as works for you, to build the skills that will keep you jumping. Even used alti/helmet/jumpsuits adds up to $700 quickly. Add that to a $$$ weekly jump habit and save for a rig while you shop and learn.

Watch out though, soon you'll want a different helmet, custom fitted jumpsuit, additional altimeter (audible!), weight belt. You'll start racking up the jumps and add new disciplines and need a crw canopy in addition to the main you finally got, then want to downsize to have a wingloading higher than 1:1, then want to camera fly and need a $400 camera, possibly a new helmet or add a cutaway to an existing one, take a wingsuit first flight course and want one of those too, maybe a second rig with a more docile canopy for wingsuiting, and then you'll want to go to a boogie. You'll to travel, pay boogie fees, have a ton of fun and want to go to more boogies. Eventually you want to compete or instruct or attend skills camps or record camps... don't do it. Quit while you're ahead. ;)

[lyosha 46]

dvlax40

All great advice!

TBH the big things i hear are:

1. Stay away from racers
2. stay away from dolphins
3. stay away from wings
4 older javelins come apart all the time
5. F111 is bad
6. 7 cells are bad.


Its hard to sort through the bias and self preference vs actual figures of performance and safety especially as a new guy.

thanks again guys!

1. Stay away from racers if you are a newer jumper. Or aren't a rigger.
2. Dolphins should be retired. Support for them is very poor since the guys that bought the brand never made them.
3. Wings rigs make good first rigs because they tend to be cheaper. But you get what you pay for. You may not want a wings for your second rig. But by then you won't be asking online for advice. I hope.
4. Never heard this, probably no substance to it.
5. If you are a new, yes.
6. Lots of people jump 7 cells... Although 9 cell Zp tends to be most people's first choice in first canopy.

[gowlerk 1,914]

Quote

2. Dolphins should be retired. Support for them is very poor since the guys that bought the brand never made them.

Just want to say that Peregrine actually supports the Dolphin very well. They no longer make them exactly, but they do make the renamed Triton. Which is nearly the same thing slightly updated and filling the same market niche, (basic, inexpensive, few options) as the Dolphin did. Mike Furry's creation lives on and is still supported.

Although there may be other good reasons to retire the older ones.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Unstable 8]

Quote

Although there may be other good reasons to retire the older ones.

this thread is interesting because there are pieces of truths to every statement, but when you look at then holistically, then the advice doesn't make sense. I agree with this statement 100%. Dolphins were good, basic, inexpensive rigs with no options. Several manufacturers now will make a no options, solid black rig for a discount, if you just ask.

My biggest concern with old Dolphins is they found a market as Student rigs. Old rig + lots of student jumps =

=========Shaun ==========

[stayhigh 2]

Micro Raven. Loading more than what the placard limitation says.

Micro Raven sized 12X or 11X,, one of the two has max loading of less than 120 lbs. I've seen many broken backs and ankles.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[skytribe 16]

Older Javelins - I've seen ones that are 20 years old that still look good. That being said I've see ones which have probably seen better days. It all depends on who owned it and where it was jumped.

I've not seen any coming apart. My opinion is that Sunpath products stand up to wear pretty well.

[Rstanley0312 0]

riggerrob

***

Quote

The Swift Plus 175 is rated for landing 200 lbs. I am here to say that it does fine at that loading. I've landed them somewhat over that twice. (look at my avatar for a picture of one with a couple line twists) There are no SBs for them, that was the original 5 cell Swift, not the Plus.

The original swift SB was about the ribs not being the right shape so it would affect the airfoil effectiveness. There was an SB on the swift plus concerning the cascades - bartacks being possibly too wide to grab the trapped line or something like that.

..................................................

Yes, I have re packed a few 5-cell Swifts that had "Service Bulletin number xxxxxx" stamped on their tails.

I have inspected and re packed hundreds of Swift Plus reserves and never found a loose bar-tack.

Both generations of Swifts were among the best reserves made in their day .... but that day ended a couple of decades ago. Times have changed. For example, back then nobody loaded main canopies at 1 pound per square foot, so nobody expected Swift reserves to land softly when loaded heavier than 1/1.
IOW Any one who loads a Swift reserve, or a Raven reserve, or an early Lightning, most 1980s-vintage canopies made of F-111 fabric (aka: zero to 3 cubic feet per minute) is a stupid, fat, white man who is doomed to meet lots of para-medics and nurses and surgeons and x-ray technicians and physio-therapists, etc.

Oooops!
Did I sound biased or opinionated or out-spoken or politically-incorrect??????

Returning to the original question ... if you visit the Parachute Industry Association or Australian Parachute Federation or Canadian Sports Parachuting Association's websites, you will find lists of Service Bulletins, Airworthiness Directives, special inspections, etc.
If any offers to sell you gear mentioned in any of those SB, ADs, etc. - and a rigger has not noted the SB on the packing data card - walk away.

Awesome post!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[BrianM 1]

riggerrob

Returning to the original question ... if you visit the Parachute Industry Association or Australian Parachute Federation or Canadian Sports Parachuting Association's websites, you will find lists of Service Bulletins, Airworthiness Directives, special inspections, etc.
If any offers to sell you gear mentioned in any of those SB, ADs, etc. - and a rigger has not noted the SB on the packing data card - walk away.

That depends on the SB. Some are quick, easy, and inexpensive to rectify. I recently found a great deal on a barely used older Javelin for one of our new jumpers. It was in almost mint condition, but didn't comply with SPSB03032000B. A few inches of Type 12 and a few minutes under the sewing machine took care of it.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[chuckakers 370]

dvlax40

All great advice!

TBH the big things i hear are:

1. Stay away from racers
2. stay away from dolphins
3. stay away from wings
4 older javelins come apart all the time
5. F111 is bad
6. 7 cells are bad.


Its hard to sort through the bias and self preference vs actual figures of performance and safety especially as a new guy.

thanks again guys!

1, 2, and 3 - there is nothing inherently wrong with any of these containers. Like all rigs, some specific rigs (typically identified by serial numbers and/or DOM) may have had issues, but like all (US) rigs, if there were issues the manufacturer (presumably) addressed them. Nearly every new model rig has had voluntary or mandatory call backs to work out tweaks. Like it or not, we the consumers are usually the drop test dummies after rigs hit the market and pretty much remain the dummies as we report issues across the life of the gear.

4 - without clarification, that is an unsubstantiated statement. If the "come apart" reference refers to tuck tab riser covers on early models, yes they did. That can be fixed, of course.

5 - I would take a properly loaded, F-111 PD 9-cell with low jump numbers as a first rig anytime, especially for people who trained on similar mains. Properly loaded they fly and land just fine and are a great value for someone seeking lower performance on a budget. I would stay away from high jump number units simply because of the performance degradation rate, but for someone that wants a low cost starter with plans to upgrade, there are some safe, good deals out there.

6 - tell that to all the very satisfied Spectre and Storm owners.

The point behind my rebuttal is that "good gear" vs "bad gear" is not something to be generalized. To hear some people tell it, only the very latest technology is acceptable, yet I have numerous friends who jump very old gear that is in great shape and in some cases in much better shape than some folks' newer gear.

It isn't about new or old, or one brand/model vs another. It's about airworthiness and fitting the gear to the purpose. I would have no problem giving the nod to a new jumper who wants to buy a lightly loaded PD F-111 9 cell with 50 jumps on it packed into any of the above listed containers that have undergone any required servicing and mods. Same with reserves. If it's legal, airworthy, and appropriately sized I see no issue.

Newbies, avoid the gear snobs. Consult a trusted rigger and find gear that serves your budget and purpose. It's doesn't have to be the latest and greatest. It has to be safe.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[lyosha 46]

gowlerk

Quote

2. Dolphins should be retired. Support for them is very poor since the guys that bought the brand never made them.

Just want to say that Peregrine actually supports the Dolphin very well. They no longer make them exactly, but they do make the renamed Triton. Which is nearly the same thing slightly updated and filling the same market niche, (basic, inexpensive, few options) as the Dolphin did. Mike Furry's creation lives on and is still supported.

Although there may be other good reasons to retire the older ones.

They seem to be hit or miss. Very hit or miss. But their new Glide container is very sexy! Although they're still trying to work the kinks out of it as well.

[Joellercoaster 6]

chuckakers

5 - I would take a properly loaded, F-111 PD 9-cell with low jump numbers as a first rig anytime, especially for people who trained on similar mains. Properly loaded they fly and land just fine and are a great value for someone seeking lower performance on a budget. I would stay away from high jump number units simply because of the performance degradation rate, but for someone that wants a low cost starter with plans to upgrade, there are some safe, good deals out there.

When I started jumping (admittedly not that long ago compared to a lot of people here), this was definitely true.

But it feels like a long time since I saw a non-ZP main that hadn't been totally jumped to death. The odds of finding a PD-190 that's been living in a closet for a decade and only has a couple hundred jumps on it, making it still worth thinking about buying, seem long.

Do they still exist? Maybe it's a US thing.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?