Should Rigging Be a Requirement?

[Andy_Copland 0]

Would you trust a person with that mentality to give someone else a gear check?

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[johnny1488 1]

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Therefore anything more than assembly and packing of a main parachute done by a Senior rigger is against the letter of the FAR's

You touched on this, but I discussed this with some people. A simple patch does not effect airworthyness. A single line was a grey area, because it may or may not effect airworthyness, depending on how you look at it.

But a senior rigger can absolutely maintain their own gear.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[diablopilot 2]

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Therefore anything more than assembly and packing of a main parachute done by a Senior rigger is against the letter of the FAR's

You touched on this, but I discussed this with some people. A simple patch does not effect airworthyness. A single line was a grey area, because it may or may not effect airworthyness, depending on how you look at it.

But a senior rigger can absolutely maintain their own gear.

But not because they have a rating, only because they are the one to jump it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[johnny1488 1]

What about this part right here?

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(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person—

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;

Doesn't that say that if you have the appropriate certificate (rigging cert) that you can maintain a parachute?

And what the hell are you doing up? Isnt it like 5 in the morning?

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[diablopilot 2]

It's 8 am in FL.

And according to the letter of the law, maintinence on a main is packing, inspection and "small" patches. Define small BTW.

Now you know I think pre-manufactured linesets are a no brainer. The skills involved in one should be easy for somone in the sport a few years.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[popsjumper 2]

Support your local Rigger!
Support your local EMTs!
Support your local mortician!

Purge all equipment knowledge from your brain!

Blindly go with what ya' got! No need for knowledge! Just jump it! No need to know how it works so you can recognize things that will make it NOT work!


Crap. If I was DZO, I would go broke because I'd run off all the idiots and let them do their stupid shit elsewhere.

And Kallend, I know you are just being the Devil's Advocate here.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Andy9o8 0]

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If someone wants to pay a rigger to maintain their gear, it's their right to do so. I pay someone to maintain my car.

Which misses the point. So that I'm not just promoting my own post (which I stand by), Perigrinrose's post #39 says it very well.

[rehmwa 2]

All skydivers should be able to (even if they still hire someone to do it for them they should still know how):

Hook up their main
Hook up an RSL
Operate their AAD
Do a thorough gear check
Untangle a serious mess without help
Do a FULL line check
Install a new main on hard links correctly
Do a 4 line check
Recognize twisted brake lines
Recognize line shrinkage
Swap out a toggle
Swap out a bag and pilot chute
Make and replace closing loops
Weave the leg and chest straps correctly
Know where all the housings go
Pack
Visualize in their mind the sequence of a canopy opening (and see how that makes sense from the starting point of the packed canopy) - i.e., understand why they are using their pack method (propack, stack, wrap, etc)
Spot (Not rigging, but to press a tired old point)

Bonus if you know enough to do minor sewing (i.e., fix the edges of the channels on the kill line or slider collapsable channel), hot knife and edge repairs.

Riggers can do the sewing, the AAD checks and batteries, pack the reserve, new line installs, safety bulletin checks. It's a completely different level than the list of simple stuff above for all skydivers.

A rig is an amazing and simple thing, it's a real example of success in high tech design and ergonomics. I don't see why a person wouldn't be fascinated with it and at least know all the parts and how they work together.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Katherine 0]

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Do you have to take a test in mechanics for getting a driving license?

not exactly, but kind of yes. on you driving test iin the uk you are asked basic maintanance questions like how to check the air pressure in the tyres, oil level etc

Leeds University Skydiving Club
www.skydiveleeds.co.uk

[skybeergodd 0]

After reading all these posts there is a simple answer. An enterprising rigger could schedule basic rigging classes. Go over basic inspections, gear functions, assemble mains, replace pilot chutes and toggle..ect, ect. Basically how to maintain your main canopy. They charge a fee for the class that way they aren't losing $$ by not doing those minimal tasks and ultimately making the sport much safer by education people about the equipment they use to save their lives.

[kallend 1,648]

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BTW, with several ratings and a number of BFRs behind me, I have yet to be asked how a magneto works, or what fuel/air ratios are on any written or oral flight test.

But with a single engine carbureted engine you do need to know how to adjust the fuel/air mixture, how and why it works, how and why the carburetor might be iced, and how to prevent, detect, and correct icing. You also need to know that there are two magneto's and how to determine if one isn't working, and what to do on a run-up if a single mag isn't working. You need to be able to check the condition of the alternator, figure out if your landing light is working, and if your carb heat is working.

I think every jumper should know about their gear to the extent necessary to determine if it is in need of repair, and should have the ability to do simple repairs such as attaching a main to a harness and assembling a three ring, attaching and detaching an RSL, and replacing a closing loop. Too many of our experienced jumpers don't have this knowledge, and pass their rigs off to "packers" who also lack this basic knowledge. Basic rigging should be included as part of the exam process.

Maybe it's just a matter of definition, but I don't consider a gear check to be "rigging". I consider "rigging" to be those things that licensed riggers are allowed to do and that I'm not.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[riggerrob 558]

Now you know I think pre-manufactured linesets are a no brainer. The skills involved in one should be easy for someone in the sport a few years.

[billvon 2,434]

>In conclusion, if you understand how to install line sets, you are
>far brighter than 99% of skydivers and 80% of licensed riggers.

Side note - that's one reason I like the sort of non-cascaded line systems canopies like the Nitro have. No sewing, no guessing.

[tbrown 26]

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Like Stratostar said though, how can they do an efficient gear check when some dont even know how the 3 rings work?

Well, that's the price for our having become an affluent "pay a packer" sport. I do my own packing, but I'm not a rigger and I don't really want to devote the time or energy to becoming one. Nor should I have to. But I do keep up with things like checking my slider grommets, container flap grommets, replacing closing loops, checking my soft links and working any twists out of my brakelines on my last packjob of the day.

Parachutist has run a number of good articles about the things jumpers should be self inspecting their rigs for. It would make good sense to include a gear inspection requirement for a license, perhaps even for the A license, as part of the packing course. And it should definitely include assembling a 3 Ring and a RSL. For that matter, have the jumper assemble and line check a completely detached canopy to their system and then pack and jump it.

Being a rigger requires a lot more knowledge and training, but being basically gear competent is realistic, doable, and necessary.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[tombuch 0]

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It would make good sense to include a gear inspection requirement for a license, perhaps even for the A license, as part of the packing course. And it should definitely include assembling a 3 Ring and a RSL.

That's all part of the USPA "A" license exam process, and is included on both the two and four page yellow cards. If you have a SIM, check the grid at the beginning of Section 4, roughly page 18. Three ring assembly and inspection, and closing loop replacement are in category "H" with additional rigging coverage in the earlier categories. Sadly, many instructors don't bother teaching this stuff, or just teach it to the level of checking the box.

If folks have any issues with student training, it would be a good idea to review the grid and the categories under the ISP...USPA has done a good job of building a comprehensive program, but too often our instructors fail to teach the material, and as well, the students fail to learn. The idea behind putting the entire ISP in the Skydivers Information Manual was to give students access to the TLO's so they could pressure lazy or overworked instructors into covering all the required material. I guess that doesn't always happen.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Akey 0]

how can they do an efficient gear check when some dont even know how the 3 rings work
Just a point on knowing about something and recognising a fault. I think it comes down to seeing money. Everyone knows what a 50p coin looks like (if your english, i guess 50c if your american etc.) but i doubt you will know the number of edges, perhaps the writing on it, or its exact layout, person on it etc. I think it is the same with a rig. You know what it is supposed to look like, so if it isn't you are able to say so.
Just throwing out ideas.

[DougH 270]

A coin analogy??? If you mix up coins you may loose a full cents, if you mix things up with your rig you may loose your life!!!

Sky diving equipment isn't very complicated, but there are still a lot of important details you need to focus on. Right and wrong can look rather similar so it really helps to know how to assemble things like three rings!!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

As a rigger who's seen people do all sorts of weird shit to their gear that is potentially dangerous... no, it shouldn't. it would only encourage the lazy and stupid to not really learn, but assume they can do things because others can.

I agree with you that people should learn their gear, but it is unfortunately a truth that many don't want to. I'd rather those people at least left the work to someone who knows what they're doing.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[squarecanopy 0]

Most skydivers' seeming indifference to and lack of knowledge of their gear baffles me. I want to know everything about how that thing that saves my life works. I think that a working knowledge of all parts of a rig would be a good requirement for a B or C license, and a rigger level understanding of a rig would be a good requirement for a D license. I base my opinion on years of observing pilots in the general aviation business and how the outcome of emergencies was positive or negative based on whether the pilot was a licensed mechanic or not. Not a scientific test or anything, just watching for 40 years and noticing that the mechanic pilots bust their asses alot less when things go badly. Understanding of equipment provides options when said equipment ( that is sustaining your life) malfunctions...

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[stratostar 5]

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You know what it is supposed to look like, so if it isn't you are able to say so.

Yea right, if you only knew how many EXP. jumpers get tripped up during a ratings course on the friken gear check when all kinds of easy stuff is messed up and it should be found by them, and they don't find it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Mockingbird 0]

I've never even pulled my cut away handle. Someone showed me how to service the 3 ring release system tho' (requirement for A), so I reckon I could put it back together again after cutting away (on the ground).

I think it would be good to require students to learn all the parts of the rig and what they do, as well as parts which have options to them, as well as the pros and cons of those options, such as the links.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[pincheck 0]

Not a rigging requirement but a understanding of your gear and being able to do maintenance on it yes.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[tombuch 0]

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I've never even pulled my cut away handle. Someone showed me how to service the 3 ring release system tho' (requirement for A), so I reckon I could put it back together again after cutting away (on the ground).

Here's a fun rainy day project....

Most suspended harnesses will allow you to hook up your own container and then cut it away. If the one at your DZ isn't configured for this, your local riggers can probably set something up. Try it. Then, with the oversight of your rigger or instructor, put the three rings back together. While you are at it, have them show you how the system actually works, and how it can be mis-configured. Gather a small group on a windy or rainy day and learn this stuff together.

If nothing else, when you take your rig to be repacked, actually pull both handles while standing with your rigger. It doesn't take any special tools or set-up, just a plastic bag to store your opened rig in.

Too often we look to testing and license standards as the motivater to learn, but in this sport (umm, actually in life itself) we can and should keep learning because we want to, not because we have to. If you have a question or see a hole in your knowledge, seek assistance, answer the question, or fill the hole.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[peregrinerose 0]

If you've never pulled your cutaway on the ground, how will you know how it feels to do so when you really need it? When I do a reserve repack, I make the rig owner simulate a malfunction... throw, chop, reserve (with RSL disconnected). It's astounding how many people have never pulled their own handles.

There's nothing magical about how a cutaway system works. Next time the weather sucks, spend some time with your friendly rigger. Most love to teach things like this.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Mockingbird 0]

I will DEFINITELY do those things ASAP-- thanks for this suggestion!

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"