mirage62 0
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Quote2. Of that smaller group an even smaller percentage feel that they are “good enough” that they don’t have to listen to anyone. They have got away with it for years and nothing has happen, therefore nothing will.
Until we as a group…all skydivers agree on a policy and then enforce it these kind of things will happen. Separate landing area’s will work IF the policy is enforced. I appreciate the posters comments about camps and big ways but having been to many camps and big ways the plan hard truth is that the rules are enforced selectively. Period. They are enforced selectively because skydiving is a social sport. When some high time, well known, well liked skydive rips a fast hook turn down low with only a few canopies around, very little is done if anything. It has to be a group thing. Such an up roar IF someone swoops in that EVERYONE will be offended and demand that it be addressed.
Someone should use binoculars and ground those persons not behaving properly in the traffic. Can it be more simple? Or if grounding is to strong term, not letting be manifested for awhile could do the trick.
As much as I dislike rules, I believe it is time for the USPA to step in and address this issue. I don’t believe that we are policing our self’s. A small percentage is affecting the whole and it has to stop.
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Eventually it will.
As always, it's a Cost ~ Benefit type of thing.
I don't know just how much MORE it's gotta cost us before something is done!
I guess life is cheaper these days, Capewells and Blast Handles didn't take near the toll before we quit fucking around with 'em!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
billeisele 122
QuoteAs much as I dislike rules, I believe it is time for the USPA to step in and address this issue. I don’t believe that we are policing our self’s. A small percentage is affecting the whole and it has to stop.
Quote
Eventually it will.
As always, it's a Cost ~ Benefit type of thing.
I don't know just how much MORE it's gotta cost us before something is done!
if we do not deal with this then the legal system will find a way, the defense lawyer argument of "it is a dangerous sport and the plaintiff accepted the risk when he/she got on the plane" will not work foreverGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteAs much as I dislike rules, I believe it is time for the USPA to step in and address this issue. I don’t believe that we are policing our self’s. A small percentage is affecting the whole and it has to stop.
Quote
Eventually it will.
As always, it's a Cost ~ Benefit type of thing.
I don't know just how much MORE it's gotta cost us before something is done!
if we do not deal with this then the legal system will find a way, the defense lawyer argument of "it is a dangerous sport and the plaintiff accepted the risk when he/she got on the plane" will not work forever
Now that the risk is becoming well understood, I predict that at some point allowing swoopers to mix with the others will come to be considered "gross negligence" and will not be protected under a waiver....
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mirage62 0
Interesting PM was sent to me, it basically was the suggestion that specific amount of swoopers vrs traditional approaches would dictate who has the closest landing area to the “hot spot” (generally closest to packing) While I have no problem walking in this might encourage more dz’s to cater to a specific group.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little
I would hope that the "hot spot" is not ever made the LZ for one group or another based solely on the percetance of HP pilots vs. other pilots.
I would hope that the DZO, S&TA, and senior jumpers would evaulate the area for the prevailing winds, and landing patterns. Then determine the area that would be the safest for each group.
I know that outs, taxiways, and current airport traffic (airplanes) all factor in to my decisions.
I know Im very interested in how things will change at our DZ.
I would hope that the DZO, S&TA, and senior jumpers would evaulate the area for the prevailing winds, and landing patterns. Then determine the area that would be the safest for each group.
I know that outs, taxiways, and current airport traffic (airplanes) all factor in to my decisions.
I know Im very interested in how things will change at our DZ.
Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
superstu 0
at skydive oregon they have their "pond side" where one can do any type of turn they want (90, 180, 270, 450, 1170, ect). then they have their "main landing area" where you're not allowed to do more than a 180 degree turn. they are very strict in the enforcement of these rules and usually the DZO or the S&TA give a warning or depending on the severity of the incident completely kicked off the DZ. everyone at the DZ respects these rules and no one is an exception.
not sure if this will help anyone, but maybe it'll give some of you DZO's an idea of how to prevent canopy collisions at your dz. i also encourage DZO's to work together, if you know of a drop zone that has good rules regarding canopy traffic call them up and see how they structure it or put it together. i think if we all work together we'll be able to take care of this situation.
not sure if this will help anyone, but maybe it'll give some of you DZO's an idea of how to prevent canopy collisions at your dz. i also encourage DZO's to work together, if you know of a drop zone that has good rules regarding canopy traffic call them up and see how they structure it or put it together. i think if we all work together we'll be able to take care of this situation.
Slip Stream Air Sports
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down
Do not go softly, do not go quietly, never back down
tbrown 26
QuoteI want to be careful with my comments here. Bob was a very good friend of mine (as many others) Swooping is a great thing. Brain McNenney is a fellow employee and good friend (Pro swooper). There is plenty of room in our sport to accommodate everyone. It seems to me that we are “running into” to problem area’s.
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I agree. My remarks were intended to point up that this is not so much a swooping issue, as a serious breach of discipline on a Bigway. In days gone by, low pulls used to be the big bad no-no, now it seems to have become how we behave in unusually heavy traffic. The swooping aside, this was a serious breach of safety procedures in a specialized kind of skydive that is already more dangerous simply because of the large numbers of people in the air at once.
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The plain hard truth is that the rules are enforced selectively. Period. They are enforced selectively because skydiving is a social sport. When some high time, well known, well liked skydiver rips a fast hook turn down low with only a few canopies around, very little is done if anything.
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That's a very real problem; with our sport, at work, and everywhere else. I mean just look at the crap Paris Hilton gets away with that would land you or me in the slammer for years at a time. It's a real toughy and it takes guts to stand up and make a stink when people are going to tell you to "lighten up", or call you a Boy Scout or an asshole for speaking up. No easy solution there....
Fact is, I've received a PM that told me there was some of this very problem involved in this incident. Nobody wants to speak ill of the dead, but I think some of the hardest questions will not be aired, for fear of causing offense to some people.
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As much as I dislike rules, I believe it is time for the USPA to step in and address this issue. I don’t believe that we are policing our self’s. A small percentage is affecting the whole and it has to stop.
______________________________________________________
USPA is gonna have to. DZO's are gonna have to. We're NOT policing ourself and we'd better get started, before the fatass politicians do it "for our own good".
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
It is very sad that this continues to happen. I just returned from a big DZ and was weary before going due to recent canopy collisions. With that in mind here are some observations I made while watching landings last weekend:
- The DZ rule was first down sets the pattern
- The SAME jumpers disregarded that rule continuously and swooped in their own direction- opposite of jumpers landing
- Even if you look before you hook, anything greater than a 180 is VERY difficult to judge your vertical descent AND how/if you are going to overtake other canopy's
- The MAJORITY of swoopers were target fixated on their landing and NOT looking around for traffic after initiating their swoop
- This is a "normal" reaction as speed causes tunnel vision and a high speed swoop requires that you pay high attention to your position relative to the intended landing area (the ground)
Two other factors I have noticed:
1) Canopy's spiralling down to "beat traffic" only cause a larger problem because they are now "out of order" in respect to wing loading, you can spiral the hell out of a 170 Sq Ft canopy and I'm still going to have to pass you under my 111 flying straight and level. Not spiralling helps to maintain vertical separation.
2) Many times highly loaded canopy pilots assume they will be or are first down, I have seen this multiple times as they hook thinking that nobody can possibly be below them - remember, there's always someone faster or pulling lower than you.
I am guilty myself of some of this. The problem is that some people make a habit of disregarding rules, become complacent, or feeling invulnerable. The fact that you have locals at a DZ that blatantly disregard rules speaks to the issue of all of us looking the other way on occasion - besides "he's a great swooper" right?!?
As we have seen, jump numbers, experience, and years in the sport do nothing for you when you make the smallest mistake under canopy.
I wish I had an answer but I do not. I can say that I will think twice about hooking it hard next time I jump. Yes, it can be done safely but sometimes you have to sacrifice the swoop for the safety of all. And that's easier said than done.
Stay safe and God bless.
- The DZ rule was first down sets the pattern
- The SAME jumpers disregarded that rule continuously and swooped in their own direction- opposite of jumpers landing
- Even if you look before you hook, anything greater than a 180 is VERY difficult to judge your vertical descent AND how/if you are going to overtake other canopy's
- The MAJORITY of swoopers were target fixated on their landing and NOT looking around for traffic after initiating their swoop
- This is a "normal" reaction as speed causes tunnel vision and a high speed swoop requires that you pay high attention to your position relative to the intended landing area (the ground)
Two other factors I have noticed:
1) Canopy's spiralling down to "beat traffic" only cause a larger problem because they are now "out of order" in respect to wing loading, you can spiral the hell out of a 170 Sq Ft canopy and I'm still going to have to pass you under my 111 flying straight and level. Not spiralling helps to maintain vertical separation.
2) Many times highly loaded canopy pilots assume they will be or are first down, I have seen this multiple times as they hook thinking that nobody can possibly be below them - remember, there's always someone faster or pulling lower than you.
I am guilty myself of some of this. The problem is that some people make a habit of disregarding rules, become complacent, or feeling invulnerable. The fact that you have locals at a DZ that blatantly disregard rules speaks to the issue of all of us looking the other way on occasion - besides "he's a great swooper" right?!?
As we have seen, jump numbers, experience, and years in the sport do nothing for you when you make the smallest mistake under canopy.
I wish I had an answer but I do not. I can say that I will think twice about hooking it hard next time I jump. Yes, it can be done safely but sometimes you have to sacrifice the swoop for the safety of all. And that's easier said than done.
Stay safe and God bless.
ccs89 0
The landing areas were seperated all weekend. I got there on Wed. and the p.a. was clear to me that if you wanted to make high performance landings do it to the right of the taxi way. I believe it was repeated every day we jumped there. Also both canopys involved in the collision were high performance. Also the canopy I was flying and yes I had a first hand view, I was the third canopy mentioned in this thread. The main difference is that Bob and I were making straight in approaches. The speed of our canopys may have been the reason Danny misjudged the clearance, but the 270 should not have been initiated at all. Hopefully all of us can learn from this and start doing things right.
Quote
- The DZ rule was first down sets the pattern
- The SAME jumpers disregarded that rule continuously and swooped in their own direction- opposite of jumpers landing
If the DZO or S&TA are unwilling (or unaware) to stop this, then you are basically screwed.
You can either "look out for #1" and land out yourself or pack up and go home and while cashing out for the few jumps you did and on your way out politely let the DZO / Manifest that you're leave early, but would have done more jumps (i.e. spent more $$ there) if they had policed their landing area / rules better. If one person does this, they'll probably just call you crazy, if two people do this, they'll probably just call you... assholes, or something... but if a whole group of people do this, they'll think its a movement...
1. 90% of the skydivers don’t swoop, of the 10% that do swoop a certain small percentage feel that they have the god given right to swoop within the other canopies.
2. Of that smaller group an even smaller percentage feel that they are “good enough” that they don’t have to listen to anyone. They have got away with it for years and nothing has happen, therefore nothing will.
Until we as a group…all skydivers agree on a policy and then enforce it these kind of things will happen. Separate landing area’s will work IF the policy is enforced. I appreciate the posters comments about camps and big ways but having been to many camps and big ways the plan hard truth is that the rules are enforced selectively. Period. They are enforced selectively because skydiving is a social sport. When some high time, well known, well liked skydive rips a fast hook turn down low with only a few canopies around, very little is done if anything. It has to be a group thing. Such an up roar IF someone swoops in that EVERYONE will be offended and demand that it be addressed.
As much as I dislike rules, I believe it is time for the USPA to step in and address this issue. I don’t believe that we are policing our self’s. A small percentage is affecting the whole and it has to stop.
P.S. – if you disagree with the percentages fine, I don’t know the number….change them to whatever you like.
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