270 in Patterns was: Double Fatality - Dublin,GA

[JohnMitchell 14]

I'm sorry for everyone's losses.

Would everyone please slow the hell down in traffic? The landing pattern has gotten to be the most dangerous part of the skydive for me and my wife. Everyone quit doing 270's in traffic. It's stupid and we're going to kill a lot more innocent skydivers if we keep it up. I don't particularly want to get killed by some swooper.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Everyone quit doing 270's in traffic. It's stupid and we're going to kill a lot more innocent skydivers if we keep it up.

Agreed 100%. But, what I keep wanting to point out is that this is not only a swooper problem. General canopy awareness is a HUGE problem. Just look around. Hell, if I remember correctly the stats on collisions were mostly NON high performance (although that number is rising for sure).

Whatever DZO's decide to implement I hope that they enforce good canopy practices PERIOD. I continue to hope that people will see past "the turn", and realize this is a problem across the board.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Agreed 100%. But, what I keep wanting to point out is that this is not only a swooper problem. General canopy awareness is a HUGE problem. Just look around. Hell, if I remember correctly the stats on collisions were mostly NON high performance

You're correct that not all collisions involve swoopers, but I look around under canopy. I have a good chance at avoiding an idiot that I can see because he's on my level. When the idiot is 300-400 feet straight above me, it's almost impossible for me to do my half of see-and-avoid. Low man has right of way still, doesn't he? If you're above someone, miss them.

[PhreeZone 15]

Lets take all discussion of flying a pattern and who is more likely to cause collisions to Safety and Training.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ianmdrennan 2]

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I have a good chance at avoiding an idiot that I can see because he's on my level. When the idiot is 300-400 feet straight above me, it's almost impossible for me to do my half of see-and-avoid. Low man has right of way still, doesn't he? If you're above someone, miss them.

But if someone is on your level then where is the vertical seperation? We can't all land at the same time. There just isn't enough room in the landing area. At some point, just like aircraft, we have to stage our approaches.

Following that logic, at some time, someone is going to be above you. Swooper or not, they have the potential to turn into you. If they're the type of pilot who thinks they'll never do it then who knows how hard they'll be looking or what they'll do.

This is why I keep going back to general canopy awareness. Unfortunately there's no guarentee though that any of us will always exercise good judgement even with the best training

Blues.
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[NWFlyer 2]

Rules and separate landing areas are all well and good, but how often are they actually enforced with any strength? You guys who have been in the sport a lot longer than I have probably seen many more examples, but it seems like we can all cite examples of stupid shit in the landing area, whether it's by jumpers doing high-performance landings or jumpers doing straight-in approaches. We've all seen it but how often does anything actually get done about it?

Until DZOs are willing to educate first time offendors and ground repeat offendors, nothing's really going to change. If the only penalty for stupidity is a slap on the wrist or an eye-rolling "there he/she goes again" from the peanut gallery, I suspect that behaviors aren't going to change.

Reports from Eloy were that turns greater than 90 were not allowed during the boogie. Some people said they heard that, others didn't, yet we all saw numerous examples of bigger turns, and two fatalities because of them. If there was a rule, it wasn't enforced.

I think it's gotta be a combination of three things:

1) Rules in place designed to manage traffic the best way possible for the particular DZ/situation (that could be different depending on the layout of the landing area, the size of the DZ, whether it's a boogie or not, etc.)

2) DZOs (and/or their representatives) who are willing to forego the jump tickets from repeat offendors (or live without their staff member for a weekend if their staff member is an offendor) to make a point that dangerous stunts in the landing area won't be tolerated. I see very few who who do this.

3) As many have said already, jumpers taking responsibility for their own actions and using the best judgment for the situation. For swoopers that means only doing it when the traffic is right. For straight-in folks, that means recognizing when a longer walk is a good thing, or when abandoning the quest for the peas is the right decision - you'll get that C license accuracy jump logged some other time. It means being farther back in the line for packers is okay.

Take responsibility for yourself and take responsibility for your friends. If you see something that scares you, talk to them. It doesn't always have to be confrontational. I don't have enough jumps to chew someone a new asshole, but I can say, "Hey, it made me pretty uncomfortable to have to duck once I'd landed to avoid being kicked in the head because you decided to make your final approach right over my head." I was at a DZ with a strict right-hand pattern, and I came in from my first jump with a left-hand pattern. I realized my mistake as soon as I was turning on base, and prepared to get a well-deserved talking-to upon landing. No one from the DZ talked to me, but a friend did, and I appreciated that. It was friendly, but it was firm, "Hey, you know that you're supposed to do a right-hand pattern, right?"

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DSE 3]

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Rules and separate landing areas are all well and good, but how often are they actually enforced with any strength?

How do you enforce it in advance? FWIW, we had a new guy show up on the DZ today, in for a few spring break jumps. Super nice kid, took him and another on a 3 way.
Normal downwind, base, final; no hooks, S turns, sashays, nada. Straight, conservative flight.
On landing, just before I touched down, he came over the left half my canopy and into my view. I have video of my landing and my head on a swivel in the pattern, and he's nowhere to be seen in the vid, with a .3 lens on the cam. In other words, he was straight behind me, closing fast. Once He was close enough that when I did land, I pushed my lines to the ground to quickly drop my canopy, and although it's always farther than it looks, his feet were close enough that it appeared that he's perhaps 10 feet to the left and above where my canopy had just been.
on the ground, the S&TA was right there on the ramp asking him what he was thinking.
No way that this could have been avoided in advance, given that he has a B license, and at some level, you have to expect that the license demonstrates a minimum level of confidence.
Normally I'd just be tweaked about seeing this and would talk briefly to the guy. Given events of the past couple months, it left me a little shaken and a lot unhappy.
It's not just swoopers that need to be watched out for, the Eloy incident of couple weeks ago weren't swooper either.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Following that logic, at some time, someone is going to be above you. Swooper or not, they have the potential to turn into you. If they're the type of pilot who thinks they'll never do it then who knows how hard they'll be looking or what they'll do.

If they are above me, they won't hit me, no matter how much they turn back and forth. It's when they start above me and speed through my altitude that the problems start.

[NWFlyer 2]

In advance, you give solid briefings no matter the experience level of the jumper, and make the DZ's rules (and the penalty for breaking them) crystal clear. Go over them every year at Safety Day or more often as a refresher for the regulars.

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on the ground, the S&TA was right there on the ramp asking him what he was thinking.

That's awesome, and THAT'S the kind of stuff I'm talking about. People in positions of authority at DZs need to be having these conversations after the "near misses". Talk to people after mistakes. Talk to them after showboating. Depending on their response, sit 'em down for the rest of the day, or let them jump again but keep a close eye on them. If they are repeat offendors, sit their ass down for good.

But I haven't seen anyone do that. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but too often the rules don't get enforced, there's no penalty for the stupid shit, the new(er) guy who makes a mistake doesn't get educated, and the problems just get worse.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DSE 3]

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Following that logic, at some time, someone is going to be above you. Swooper or not, they have the potential to turn into you. If they're the type of pilot who thinks they'll never do it then who knows how hard they'll be looking or what they'll do.

If they are above me, they won't hit me, no matter how much they turn back and forth. It's when they start above me and speed through my altitude that the problems start.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm misunderstanding, but in the case of the AFF and Danish military jumpers at Eloy; neither of them were turning nor swooping when the collision occured?

[AMax 0]

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if I remember correctly the stats on collisions were mostly NON high performance (although that
number is rising for sure).

Look at the numbers. In North America, there was 1 NON performance fatal accident since 2004 (Eloy this year). The rest involved a high performance approach.

[billvon 2,400]

>neither of them were turning nor swooping when the collision occured?

The student was doing a 360.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Look at the numbers. In North America, there was 1 NON performance fatal accident since 2004 (Eloy this year). The rest involved a high performance approach.

http://uspa.org/publications/parachutist/online%20archives/2007/03.07/safetycheck03.07.htm

Is what I based that observation on, specifically:

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Since 1999, 18 jumpers have died in canopy collisions, and many others have been injured or had close calls. Most collisions have been the result of last-second S-turns just before landing, but collisions resulting from high-performance approaches are on the rise.

edit: I am in no way, shape or form advocating 270's in traffic. What I AM advocating is that we be careful to not spend so much time pointing fingers at others that we don't stop to realize any one of us are not above the same mistakes.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[airtwardo 6]

...but I look around under canopy.

I have a good chance at avoiding an idiot that I can see because he's on my level.

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I'm only a fledgling '1/2assed' aeroplane driver, but my better half is a pro, and when we fly together she is CONSTANTLY harping about LOOK AROUND~left right, up & down...and always clear you air before a turn.

I guess it's become a habit for me to do so under canopy.

I wonder how many jumpers actually do keep their head on a swivel at all times...I must jump with some pretty good folks because more often than not while I'm scanning I see everyone else doing the same!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[crutch 0]

ian, it is not just hp canopies. i have a guy with a 170 who spirals right down through the middle of the traffic pattern every jump. won't happen again here! tired of being a nice guy about it! i am a dzo who is going to put an end to it at our place. if you do not want to follow a preset traffic pattern, jump somewhere else. if you want to do a 270 before you land, go for it, but there better not be ANY canopies in the air when you do it here anymore. someone has to step up and set rules before we kill a few more people. high speed manuevers makes one focus on the entry point, not the other canopies in the air, exactly what happened in dublin. the adrenlian of doing it, plus the g-forces (although small) and the focus contribute to some tunnel vision, loss of peripheral vision. we can't have that in traffic situations!

it is simple, you want to do it, do a hop-n-pop, you have the stage to yourself for the "wow" factor of the crowd. if you mess up, you have no else to blame and you don't carry anyone with you!

[ianmdrennan 2]

Art,

Perfect response, seriously. And a reason why I look forward to skydiving at your dz again. It's great to hear that you don't limit the problem to a particular canopy or approach type, but rather to a mindset that is a killer.

Any DZ and DZO that enforces strict landing patterns and canopy practices has my support.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[JohnMitchell 14]

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ia won't happen again here! tired of being a nice guy about it! i am a dzo who is going to put an end to it at our place.

Good on you, bro!

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[ozzy13 0]

there's no guarentee though that any of us will always exercise good judgement even with the best training Frown



That for sure . Just look at the fatalities just this year with canopy collisions . Most if not all have bin with high jump counts. Does anyone practice flat turn after there opening and check. Or is it to get to the area to set up for your swoop. Someone mentioned separation . I bin to a lot of DZ on the east Coast in my short time skydiving . At some DZ free flier exit first . I thought this was a good idea at first until someone sent me a link that in was not so good. It does'nt give the separation you need. I think people need to get back to basics and stop trying to look so good for the crowd

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[billvon 2,400]

>Does anyone practice flat turn after there opening and check.

I strongly recommend you do NOT do this! For the first 10-15 seconds after opening everyone should be flying straight away from the center, looking around. If everyone flies straight away from the center, there can be no canopy collisions within that group. Take the time to look around carefully, see where the other people on your dive are, collapse your slider (if you want to) and unstow your brakes. Then, once you understand what the traffic in your area is like, turn towards the pattern and start setting up.

[ozzy13 0]

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>Does anyone practice flat turn after there opening and check.

I strongly recommend you do NOT do this! For the first 10-15 seconds after opening everyone should be flying straight away from the center, looking around. If everyone flies straight away from the center, there can be no canopy collisions within that group. Take the time to look around carefully, see where the other people on your dive are, collapse your slider (if you want to) and unstow your brakes. Then, once you understand what the traffic in your area is like, turn towards the pattern and start setting up.[/r



That is what I am talking about .Pull check for square and stable , check air space ,release breaks THEN practice flat turns Sorry I didn't put every step into it and

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

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[mktoson 0]

What I don't get is why the landing areas at Dublin weren't segregated prior to the fatalities. Dublin's landing area is huge. After the fatality, hp approaches were assigned an area to land and straight-in approaches were assigned another. With all the up roar in recent months about seperation, why wasn't this addressed prior to the incident?

So far, this is the oldest I've ever been.

[yardhippie 0]

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>Does anyone practice flat turn after there opening and check.

I strongly recommend you do NOT do this! For the first 10-15 seconds after opening everyone should be flying straight away from the center, looking around. If everyone flies straight away from the center, there can be no canopy collisions within that group. Take the time to look around carefully, see where the other people on your dive are, collapse your slider (if you want to) and unstow your brakes. Then, once you understand what the traffic in your area is like, turn towards the pattern and start setting up.[/r



That is what I am talking about .Pull check for square and stable , check air space ,release breaks THEN practice flat turns Sorry I didn't put every step into it and

If a canopy pilot is to be practicing maneuvers of anykind, they need to be done up high and AWAY from traffic. If an entire otter load in different groups all pull at 3500', none of them has any business practicing skill sets with 24 peeps in the air all shooting for a given piece of real estate. Braked approaches, flat turns, riser turns, and other modes of flight do not fit into an approach to or within the pattern, because from other pilot's view points it is errattic, and/or confusing. Now instead of focusing on everyone around, they have to focus on you b/c of the non-typical flight.

Again I preach a little, education is key. No one is immune. Make a plan, from the time you get into an aircraft until you put your gear down in the packing area again. Have a plan, discuss it with others. Stick to it.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

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[yardhippie 0]

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What I don't get is why the landing areas at Dublin weren't segregated prior to the fatalities. Dublin's landing area is huge. After the fatality, hp approaches were assigned an area to land and straight-in approaches were assigned another. With all the up roar in recent months about seperation, why wasn't this addressed prior to the incident?

they were segregated.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[mktoson 0]

Well if they were segregated, it wasn't enforced until Sunday morning. I saw plenty of hp approaches in the main(south) landing area. Those approaches ceased Sunday. Sunday morning was the first time that I heard anyone mention (on intercom or otherwise) that hp landings would be landing in the north sector and straight in approaches to the south.

So far, this is the oldest I've ever been.

[ozzy13 0]

If a canopy pilot is to be practicing maneuvers of anykind, they need to be done up high and AWAY from traffic.


I was told differently . On every opening you sould pratice flat turns .And the reason is you never know when you are going to need it . If you do it every time it will be natural. Now before you jump down on me . I was told to check to see if my canopy was square and stable ,then to check my air space and then do a couple flat turns on the way to my set up point . You never no when someone is going to come at you when you are at 300 or less and if you dont pratice this you are probably going to drive you canopy right into the ground

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!