another controversial subject

[Beachbum 0]

This has probably been discussed out here before, but with some of the things happening lately, it's on my mind NOW (and I'm bored during a very windy weekend) ... so ...
I've always been a very pro-choice/take responsibilty for myself sort of person who doesn't particularly care for having someone tell me I have to do this, or use that, or whatever. Tho my jump numbers are kinda low thanks to my ear, I've been around this sport a little over 2 years now. Because of the type of person I am, I felt I understood those old timers who seem to bristle at the idea of using an AAD, and felt it should be a matter of choice. BUT ... the more incidents I read or hear about where someone goes in when an AAD would most likely at least have gotten a canopy over them, the more I start to think maybe this is one situation where I would tolerate being told I have to use one (I DO have one in my rig, but it's by choice). Aside from the possible lives it could save, it seems to me that it might also help keep Unca Sam from getting in the business of regulating skydiving (seems to be working really hard these days at keeping people from hurting themselves under the guise of enjoyment ... lol). I think it's bad enough that they REQUIRE me to wear a seatbelt (not that I don't ever use it, but it should be my choice) ... but when I was told that Houston now requires bicycle helmets ... that's just going TOO f!@#'ing far!!! Anyhow ... do ya'll think it's time to start requiring an AAD for sport jumping?
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[PhreeZone 15]

Uh... hell no...
Reasons why not to force them
Cost.. not everyone has 1k laying around to drop in one on a moments notice
Swoopers would toast theirs on every chow
Its personal choice, do you want them to start regulation on canopies next? You can't fly any thing over a 1.2 loading till X jumps?
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[Beachbum 0]

no thanks ... as I said ... I'm not one who likes to have anything shoved down my throat ... give me choice ... but I also hate to see people that might've been alive NOT so. Mainly was curious how others felt about it ...
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[AggieDave 6]

Required? NO!
Although I personally think that people should jump with one and I will be jumping with one as soon as I can afford it. Well, people that is who don't have a special situation, like pond swoopers of CReW dogs who do downplanes, etc.
Aerials
So up high
When you free your lives (the) eternal prize

[quade 3]

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Anyhow ... do ya'll think it's time to start requiring an AAD for sport jumping?

I believe that is already the case in some countries.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[PLFKING 3]

You answered your own question......do you think Houston needs to require bicycle helmets ? I daresay that more folks are killed in biking accidents per year than are in all skydiving accidents combined.
I have objections to some DZs making me wear a helmet. I always wear one while doing RW jumps, but I should be allowed to go without if I'm doing a solo fun jump or drill dive.
I mean, what protection does a frappe hat provide ? It's considered the same as a helmet as far as jumping with headgear, but....c'mon !
Don

[Beachbum 0]

awww ... you edited it (or took it off ?) ... I already started responding to it ... now I know why it didn't want to work!!
Obviously, I'm in the "want the choice" category. And yes, I sometimes do have a problem with someone telling me what to do without me having the ability to question the authority ... LOL ... I'd have had major problems if the draft had not ended when it did!
as for

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what the freekin' difference does it make?

.... you said it yourself ...

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then there's going to be some damn fool goverment that tells you

I think we're way over regulated as it is, in terms of things that should be left to people to decide for themselves and take responsibilty for their decisions. Granted, part of that is probably fostered by the way our society has gotten rather overly prone to scream for lawyers every time something doesn't go the way we want it to (and I WISH I knew a cure for that one!!). I sure as heck don't advocate someone jumping off a cliff with no rig whatsoever, but I also don't think it's up to me to decide that someone isn't allowed to do so. I can certainly think of much more boring methods of suicide!
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[Beachbum 0]

well ... from my perspective, yes - answered ... but not really what I'm asking ... looking for other's takes on it.
I haven't personally been to a dz that requires helmets ... but at my stage in the learning curve, that's not an issue for me ... I'm GOING to have mine on for now (and it's been a good thing too ... first jump on my rig I got hit by a cross gust when I was about a foot from the ground and slammed sideways ... helmet probably saved me a concussion!). But I sure understand your point. To me, things like that should be left to us to choose and deal with the consequences of our choices.
I hadn't thought about the swoopers, since most of the people I've watched do so start their hard descent well below cypres range ... but knew the crew folks don't want a cypres fire at a crucial moment. I guess that's part of why I asked the question ... if we wait for the government to step in and mandate AAD's ... will they be willing to allow exceptions for crew and swoopers, or other situations where they really don't make sense? I doubt it! I'm certainly not in favor of an across the board requirement for AAD's ... but I can see where it could be forced on us if we/USPA don't do something first, so I'm willing to TRY to keep an open mind in spite of my normal "don't dictate what I can/can't do" attitude.
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

IMHO, I'd say "recomended, but not mandatory".
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[Haeloth 0]

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Its personal choice, do you want them to start regulation on canopies next? You can't fly any thing over a 1.2 loading till X jumps?

Actually, this is the case in Norway right now. I can't jump elliptical canopies or have a wingload over 1.1 until I get 200 jumps.
Yes, lives will probably be saved, but I think there should be guidelines, not absolute rules. I had never imagined skydiving to be a sport where anorexia could be a problem.
Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...

[jtval 0]

Im with the NON MANDATORY rule but For us low timers the benifits and dangers of the AAD should(in my case) has been thouroughly introduced to me.
once ppl start swooping,using kite string and handkerchief sized mains the AAD become more of a hinderance then a help.
as far as CReW..it is a tough decision(IMHO) b/c you dont want that thing firing at the wrong time ESPECIALLY w/ CReW. you are more likely to NOT want an AAD with CReW...not to mention RSL's. no way would I want one during CReW(I've never doine CReW yet but I would definitely not want an RSL on my rig.
I would also not like to HAVE TO use my reserve(but I won't think twice in doing so). so far so good.
I think the pee's in the target should be 500FT deep. if you had a dual-mal you could aim for the pee's and save your ass!
getting high is fun, but coming down is the best part
JT

[kmcguffee 0]

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To me, things like that should be left to us to choose and deal with the consequences of our choices.

The problem is that if someone is stupid and gets themself killed then we ALL have to deal with the consequences. It is sort of along the same lines as requiring seat belts. If someone is not wearing a seat belt, gets in a wreck and gets hurt then we all end up paying for that person's medical expenses either through our taxes or increased insurance. Our society is too interconnected to believe that most of your choices don't somehow effect other people.
I'm not arguing that AADs should be required. In some situations it is probably safer to jump without them. I'm just making the point that everything you do in this sport effects all other skydivers in some way or another. Skydiving safely is everyone's personal responsiblity to themselves and other skydivers.
I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters.

[MrHixxx 0]

I don't think you will ever see them required based on jumpers hurting themselves. Nonetheless, more dead jumpers unanimously agree it would have been nice to have one and still be alive...
Now, if there is ever a high profile accident where a jumper kills someone minding their own business on the ground from a low/no pull and generates public sympathy or a desire for more protection from skydivers. It will happen...
Personally, I have jumped with an AAD for all my RW and VRW dives since my son was born. My life simply isn't exclusively my own anymore. My CReW rig doesn't have a Cypres, but now I am not so sure that is a good idea anymore after what happened to Brad Friday.
The only time I think it is unsafe to have a Cypres is Swooping anything close to 3 to 1 or if you are landing in water. I don't think it becomes an issue doing downplanes with a sane wingloading... (Pro Cypres only advice)
my 2 cents, Hixxx
"Sous ma tub, Dr Suess ma tub"

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

There was talk a while ago about making all skydivers wear a transponder for ATC reasons. These things come in at about 6000 pounds - if that was mandatory, how many people would be in the sport? (off the subject a little, but hey)
When I grow up, I want to be a post whore

[dove 0]

After tumbling 4000-5000 feet unconscious, I will never jump without an AAD. Shit DOES happen.
lucky dove

[billvon 2,471]

>There was talk a while ago about making all skydivers wear a transponder for
> ATC reasons. These things come in at about 6000 pounds.
You really think Cessna 152's have a 6000 pound piece of electronics gear in them? The transponder itself weighs about 5 pounds. (It's the thing on an avionics stack with four digits usually set to 1200.) Not sure abou the antenna, but it's pretty small. To do a basic mode-C transponder would take no more electronics than the combination of a Cypres and a cellphone, so it wouldn't be too bad from a gear standpoint. It would, no doubt, be a pain in the butt from a regulatory standpoint.
-bill von

[Jessica 0]

I think he meant 6,000 pounds sterling. Like, money.

[skybytch 259]

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do ya'll think it's time to start requiring an AAD for sport jumping?

No. In fact, not just no, but Hell No.
Require AAD's... what's next? RSL's? Helmets? Shoes? Wingloadings of 1.0 or less?
pull & flare,
lisa
---
On the other hand...you have different fingers

[billvon 2,471]

>I think he meant 6,000 pounds sterling. Like, money.
Ah. Well, in that case, like Emily Litella says - never mind.
-bill von

[freeflyguy 0]

Chime.
We have one awesome and gorgeous skydiver at Kapowsin that once woke up about ten seconds before she landed under her reserve. If it wasn't for the cypress, I would never have met her, she was knocked unconscious in an RW dive.
I think she believes in them.
As far as water landings. Last year, I had 3 full wet tumble crash landings in the pond. Cypress equiped, it was never harmed. In about 40 or 50 of those type "water landings" last year at Kapow, only one cypress was ruined. If you get out of the water, in short order, and get your cypress out, it usually doesn't hurt it. So normally, swooping the pond with a cypress is safer and better with it. But no, I wouldn't wear one in a pro swoop meet.
All in all. I don't like to be told I have to use it either, but I do believe you should use it, always.

[Remster 24]

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I think she believes in them.

I really dont think its an issue of wether or not most jumpers believe in them or not...
But blanket rules like this would take away at the very least some development of our sport.
Would there be parabatics still been done?
Would regular CReW team "land" downplanes? From a recent thread on rec. , looks like that isnt happening in france anymore because the national teams have been jumping AADs fro a while.
These 2 points are fairly minor, but still valid I feel.
Then we get into more unconfortable issues. if by law, you HAD to have an AAD, would you start to see more brands available, with some not being as good as the others?
As someone said, AAD are mandatory in some contries (OZ I think, and starting next year, France), and I feel it will be a move that will get more and more commun....
Talk about beating a dead horse....
Remster
Muff 914

[Dumpster 0]

Just a newbie here but ---
AAD's IMHO- Good idea - But I wouldn't go as far a making it a requirement - I use one - but respect other's choice not to use one - Same way I feel about motorcycle helmets- I ride without one - that's just my choice - I do wear a seatbelt in the car - again MY CHOICE!! This is America here, and in any other country- it should be a CHOICE- Seems to me like more and more people are willing to let the governing bodies do thier thinking for them - Scares the hell out of me!
My .02 -

[hobbes4star 0]

students yes. everyone else should be optional.
why jump when you can fly

[Beachbum 0]

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AAD are mandatory in some contries (OZ I think, and starting next year, France)

places where AAD's are now required - anyone know if the government stepped in and did it, or was it done by their equivalent to USPA ??
As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?