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antimike 0
Quote. I don't want them to have to go through that but personally I don't give a rats ass
You know I normaly just sit here and browse when I'm bored at work, seldom do I post, and I was really interested in the opinions posted on this thread.... Then I read that last post, WHAT A SELFISH ATTITUDE I COULD NOT BELIEVE HE ACTUALLY SAID IT OUT LOUD. I'm just glad freeflier dosen't jump at my DZ i wouldn't even get on the plane with him.. I'm done... Since I replied to the AAD thread I'll state my own opinion. I've owned one since i bought my first rig, I forget about it once it's on. I've had one cut away in 1150 jumps and I didn't think about it then. I have jumped without one a few time when I've borrowed a rig. It didn't really bother me. My 4 yr is coming up in Oct. So I'll have to decide then for sure. Ill probably jump it when the cypress is down who knows!!
jfields 0
QuoteIsn't that enough of a reason for a newbie like me, at least until I *know* I'll pull silver?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you aren't confident that you'll "pull silver" when needed... perhaps more time practicing emergency procedures is indicated. I've never had to cutaway in 900 jumps; I'm very confident that I can and will pull the handles in the correct order when I need to
Lisa,
You are misunderstanding what I am saying. I do practice my emergency procedures, and I am confident that I will do the right thing when the time comes. However, it doesn't matter how confident I am, I still don't know as a certain fact that I will act appropriately. Despite your 900-some jumps, neither do you, as you haven't had a cutaway either.
As soon as you have a cutaway and execute your procedures flawlessly (as I'm sure you will), come back and say, "Damnit, Justin, I told you so!" That will be great, and I'll be happy you did. All I'm saying is that we are both in the same boat in that confidence is irrelevant in this case because (fortunately) neither of us have ever had to prove our ability.
If all it took were confidence, rather than actual performance, many no-pull fatalities would still be with us.
kallend 1,649
Diverdriver and I were on a 10-way-speed practice jump last Saturday when one of our teammates hit his head hard on the door frame. He came-to on his back at 6,000ft. Lucky, since he had no CYPRES. He now says he's going to get one.
Deleted 0
I've read through the replys to your question Dave, and it looks to me like it has just turned into yet another CYPRES debate. I'm not going to get into that, it's just not worth my time.
You asked for specific opinions, and here's mine.
I started jumping as a student with Sentinals (Hi chris), and moved to CYPRES equipped rigs as I finished my training. Since being cleared off student status, I have had the pleasure of jumping many different rig/main combos. Some have been AAD equipped, some have not. I used to say "If it's there, I'll turn it on. If it's not there, well, I don't have to remember to turn it on!" That I cannot say anymore. Last year I made 4 jumps one day at Skydive Illinois. I was using rental gear, which all Has CYPRES installed. My third jump I had a hard pull, and ended up going to silver. The reserve cleared my back at about 1500 feet, and the (student) CYPRES did not fire. For a first reserve ride, it was enlightening. Shortly thereafter (after finally finding the freebag), I got back on the plane to do it again. Another rental rig. At about 5000 feet I realized I hadn't checked the CYPRES. After a quick gear check, it was discovered it was not turned on. Did I ride the plane down? HELL NO! I got out like any other jump.
My rig that's sitting here next to me does not have a CYPRES, and, in fact, is not even CYPRES "ready".
To each their own. This is an inherently dangerous sport we so thouroughly enjoy. Educate yourself. Fully understand the pros and cons of your decisions (and not just in CYPRES matters). Remember, every time you leave that door, you are committing suicide, and it's up to you to save your life. Don't rely on anything. Had I become complacent on that 4th jump at SDI, I would not be sitting here writing this, thanks to a CYPRES.
You asked for specific opinions, and here's mine.
I started jumping as a student with Sentinals (Hi chris), and moved to CYPRES equipped rigs as I finished my training. Since being cleared off student status, I have had the pleasure of jumping many different rig/main combos. Some have been AAD equipped, some have not. I used to say "If it's there, I'll turn it on. If it's not there, well, I don't have to remember to turn it on!" That I cannot say anymore. Last year I made 4 jumps one day at Skydive Illinois. I was using rental gear, which all Has CYPRES installed. My third jump I had a hard pull, and ended up going to silver. The reserve cleared my back at about 1500 feet, and the (student) CYPRES did not fire. For a first reserve ride, it was enlightening. Shortly thereafter (after finally finding the freebag), I got back on the plane to do it again. Another rental rig. At about 5000 feet I realized I hadn't checked the CYPRES. After a quick gear check, it was discovered it was not turned on. Did I ride the plane down? HELL NO! I got out like any other jump.
My rig that's sitting here next to me does not have a CYPRES, and, in fact, is not even CYPRES "ready".
To each their own. This is an inherently dangerous sport we so thouroughly enjoy. Educate yourself. Fully understand the pros and cons of your decisions (and not just in CYPRES matters). Remember, every time you leave that door, you are committing suicide, and it's up to you to save your life. Don't rely on anything. Had I become complacent on that 4th jump at SDI, I would not be sitting here writing this, thanks to a CYPRES.
QuoteWHAT A SELFISH ATTITUDE I COULD NOT BELIEVE HE ACTUALLY SAID IT OUT LOUD.
Maybe I wasn't clear...I don't want my friends to see me burn in. That would suck for them. Although it is always a possibility AAD or not. What I meant was...personally I don't care if I die skydiving. Car accident, old age, Cancer, AIDs, hit by a train. Whats the difference? In fact...I would say skydiving would be a much better way to go than a nasty disease. It just sucks that your friends have to see it. I certainly don't want that to happen nor do I have a death wish. I just realize that...You have to die of something.
Quotebut would anyone have enough balls to jump with an FXC !!! ???
I have both a CYPRESS and a ASTRA. I trust both of them.
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" -Groucho Marx- "Tom flies like a rock" -Tom Carson-
Quotewould anyone have enough balls to jump with an FXC
I have made several. Both on S/L and during Free Fall jumps. Of course...I don't think I really understood how bad they were about sensing altitude back then. I even watched an FXC save once. It deployed right about when I thought it was going to. Somewhere around 1000 ft. *shrug* In fact, there is an older woman at Raeford that probably still jumps a Sentinel. Now that thing is scary!!!
antimike 0
OK, sorry I retract my selfish statement. i hope your friends never see it either. Blue skies
Dumpster 0
Inresponse to your question if some of us Cypres types would jump if I forgot to turn my cypress on - Probably yes - As a matter of fact I got on the Cessna to do a hop and pop and realized after takeoff I'd done just that - I use and condone the use of AAD's, but I jump like I don't have one - I also realize it's a mechanical device and nothing is 100% reliable- (isn't that why we have reserves? And we know they aren't 100% reliable either-) I won't absolutely refuse to jump without one, and I don't bust anyone's nuts for not using one, either. Like I mentioned before, I ride without a helmet- because I like it! No other reason! I know the dangers and am willing to accept the risk. 'nuff said!
C-YA!!
-Lenny
Easy Does It
C-YA!!
-Lenny
Easy Does It
Yeah, I didn't want another debate about AADs, we've had dozens of those. I wanted to hear some opinions from people who refuse to jump with out one, no matter what. Wendy, I liked what you wrote, it makes sense to me and is on par with my opinion (so of course I like it, right
).
Wendy, on another note, are you going to come to the AOT boogie? Please say yes...Catfish and company will be there, I'm up for some CReW, yall could pull some cool stuff off that weekend over Coulter.
). Wendy, on another note, are you going to come to the AOT boogie? Please say yes...Catfish and company will be there, I'm up for some CReW, yall could pull some cool stuff off that weekend over Coulter.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
wildblue 4
QuoteHere's a question for those of you who won't jump without one. Let's say you were in a hurry to get to the plane for a first jump of the day and you realize at 1200' on the way up that you forgot to turn your Cypres on. Whatcha gonna do? Ride the plane down? Or go ahead and do the skydive?
[sarcasm]
What? You mean I shouldn't just go ahead and turn it on?[/sarcasm]
it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality
QuoteThis is an example of someone who made a jump they should not have made because the cypres made them feel just safe enough to do it. If there are people like that in the sport, their cypreses are greatly increasing their risk by allowing them to jump in situations they should not. If you doubt that happens, go to a boogie and see if you hear the phrase "hey, that's why I have a cypres."
Again, my acid test is asking someone if they are willing to make just one jump under the safest possible conditions with their cypres off. If they cannot or will not, it's likely that they are depending too much on their cypres, and would be safer fixing the thing that worries them rather than simply relying on a cypres.
First of all, I hope you meant your litmus test, not your "acid test". That's a different thread
I agree the attitude you described above is a problem, but I don't think your "test" always applies. Like I said, I see no reason to jump without one, other than low exit, CReW, etc. And I have no intention of jumping without one. Personally, I almost forget to turn mine on in the morning usually. That's how little I think about it. I can absolutely guarantee that the fact I have a cypress has never entered my thought process as to whether I should do a jump or not, subconsciously or otherwise. However, it's a safety device that's available and that I believe is worthwhile. And just as I will choose not to jump with a sore knee because of the chance of a bad landing that will make the damage worse, I will choose not to jump without a cypress. The point being, I want to enhance my odds of being able to make another jump after this next one.
Am I willing to jump without a cypress? Why would I? They are available, I can afford it, and they save lives. Does that mean I'm relying on it? No. It's a choice I'm making to take advantage of available safety equipment. (If I ever found out that it was off during the ride to altitude though, I'm pretty sure I'd jump anyway)
As to "fixing the thing that worries me", that thing is a freak occurence that I haven't anticipated that would render me incapable of pulling. I know you're up on this stuff, Bill, just think of it in terms of chaos theory. There's a possibility of anything happening at any given time. And it's just as likely to happen that time I decide to jump without a cypress as with one, so why risk it? To prove I'm willing to? That's ok...I'll continue only jumping with a cypress and never relying on it.
Bill, TCAS and GPWS are very good examples of safety equipment on airliners that you aren't supposed to need because pilots don't make mistakes and they never get situationally unaware. But guess what....airline pilots do lose situational awareness. These are backups. Now.....we can fly with them "out of order". Pilots call them "MEL'd". It is not a grounding item to have TCAS or GPWS INOP. And in fact....I have jumped without an AAD on more than a couple hundred jumps. I have jumped without a Cypres since I first installed it on my rig. So to answer the original question of this thread "would you make a jump without a Cypres" is a "yes". And I imagine that there will be a time in the future where I'll make a jump without a Cypres again. But to make fun (not you personally), or call crazy someone who does not want to jump without an operating Cypres on their rig does not automatically make them an unsafe jumper worthy of public ridicule. You're right, if someone has an incorrect idea about what a Cypres does and does not do then that must be corrected. But to just right them off and tell them to stay on the ground is wrong. Did I not make a mistake with the atmospheric oxygen thread in Safety and Training? I had the right idea with the wrong supporting info. Should I be grounded because I messed up why the body gets hypoxic? Ok, getting off topic.
I think this comes back to training (as you already agreed to). Information on how things (skydiving gear) work. Harness/container, cutaway handle and cable, reserve handle and cable, RSL, AADs, hook knives, audibles, altimeters. They all have limitations and correct operating principles. We must educate people on the why's including to the how's. Maybe that person who refused to jump without a functioning Cypres didn't fully understand what it did or did not do. Education may make the difference. Not ridicule for being a sissy or "incompetant".
The jumper who left a plane in an emergency and hoped the Cypres would pull him is the same as the jumper who pulled the cutaway handle and nothing else thinking the RSL would deploy his reserve. Do we go out and rip on people who jump with RSLs? Tell them they are unsafe because they are relying on a safety device that could kill them in some situations? I don't think we do. So why is this debate going on with people who choose to only jump with an operational Cypres?
Personally, I will still pressure people who don't jump with a Cypres to buy one and have it installed on their rig for all jumps.
Chris
I think this comes back to training (as you already agreed to). Information on how things (skydiving gear) work. Harness/container, cutaway handle and cable, reserve handle and cable, RSL, AADs, hook knives, audibles, altimeters. They all have limitations and correct operating principles. We must educate people on the why's including to the how's. Maybe that person who refused to jump without a functioning Cypres didn't fully understand what it did or did not do. Education may make the difference. Not ridicule for being a sissy or "incompetant".
The jumper who left a plane in an emergency and hoped the Cypres would pull him is the same as the jumper who pulled the cutaway handle and nothing else thinking the RSL would deploy his reserve. Do we go out and rip on people who jump with RSLs? Tell them they are unsafe because they are relying on a safety device that could kill them in some situations? I don't think we do. So why is this debate going on with people who choose to only jump with an operational Cypres?
Personally, I will still pressure people who don't jump with a Cypres to buy one and have it installed on their rig for all jumps.
Chris
QuoteI think this comes back to training (as you already agreed to). Information on how things (skydiving gear) work. Harness/container, cutaway handle and cable, reserve handle and cable, RSL, AADs, hook knives, audibles, altimeters. They all have limitations and correct operating principles.
That brings up a good point. Bill, would you say that someone who refuses to jump without a visual alitmeter should stay on the ground because they are too reliant on it? Or how about a hook knife?
You have to stay on the ground in the UK if you don't have a hook knife !!!
Anyway the one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that we should all keep our emergency procedures "fresh" and that we should try to jump as safely as we can through dive planning etc ...
Whether you jump with or without a cypres ... remember to keep it safe !!!!
Anyway the one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that we should all keep our emergency procedures "fresh" and that we should try to jump as safely as we can through dive planning etc ...
Whether you jump with or without a cypres ... remember to keep it safe !!!!
wildblue 4
Snausages.
it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality
Fly by wire *shudder* - those things (Airbuses) scare me, the more dependant on software you make a mission critical system, the more likely it will fail - especially when it involves the Europeans
Well said Chris.
My question to those opposed to using a Cypres is “Will you jump without a reserve?”
Sound like a silly question? I’m serious. Here is my thinking….
Skydiving is dangerous. Flying a 747 is also dangerous. Driving a car, riding a bike, scuba diving, (pick your sport), just about every activity is associated with some level of danger. It is what we do to mitigate and contain the dangers through systems that reduce our risks of bodily injury to some level of acceptance.
Skydiving without a rig is 100% fatal. A single parachute will save you 100% of the time if there are no mishaps. So why carry a reserve?
Because we all know there are mishaps. Case in point; I had cutaway #2 on Sunday,
Does carrying a reserve guarantee 100% survivability? No! We also know that. But we have now reduced our risks to an acceptable level.
Getting knocked unconscious for over a minute in skydiving is fatal 100% of the time without a Cypres. Guaranteed. YOU WILL DIE!
Please let me repeat.
Getting knocked unconscious for over a minute in skydiving is fatal 100% of the time without a Cypres. Guaranteed. YOU WILL DIE!
Does a Cypres guarantee 100% survivability? No. Nobody is making that argument.
A Cypres is merely one more system to mitigate the risk.
These silly postulations about ‘depending on the Cypres to fire, two canopies out etc. are missing the point entirely. And certainly there are times when I want my Cypres unarmed and I can turn it off.
But I’ll say this at the risk of being flamed ---
I believe that any argument against the use of a Cypres in recreational skydiving is a rationalization for being stupid!
Cheers,
Whit
My question to those opposed to using a Cypres is “Will you jump without a reserve?”
Sound like a silly question? I’m serious. Here is my thinking….
Skydiving is dangerous. Flying a 747 is also dangerous. Driving a car, riding a bike, scuba diving, (pick your sport), just about every activity is associated with some level of danger. It is what we do to mitigate and contain the dangers through systems that reduce our risks of bodily injury to some level of acceptance.
Skydiving without a rig is 100% fatal. A single parachute will save you 100% of the time if there are no mishaps. So why carry a reserve?
Because we all know there are mishaps. Case in point; I had cutaway #2 on Sunday,
Does carrying a reserve guarantee 100% survivability? No! We also know that. But we have now reduced our risks to an acceptable level.
Getting knocked unconscious for over a minute in skydiving is fatal 100% of the time without a Cypres. Guaranteed. YOU WILL DIE!
Please let me repeat.
Getting knocked unconscious for over a minute in skydiving is fatal 100% of the time without a Cypres. Guaranteed. YOU WILL DIE!
Does a Cypres guarantee 100% survivability? No. Nobody is making that argument.
A Cypres is merely one more system to mitigate the risk.
These silly postulations about ‘depending on the Cypres to fire, two canopies out etc. are missing the point entirely. And certainly there are times when I want my Cypres unarmed and I can turn it off.
But I’ll say this at the risk of being flamed ---
I believe that any argument against the use of a Cypres in recreational skydiving is a rationalization for being stupid!
Cheers,
Whit
billvon 2,435
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>I will choose not to jump without a cypress.
But then you say:
>If I ever found out that it was off during the ride to altitude though,
> I'm pretty sure I'd jump anyway.
So to me it sounds like you are willing to jump without it, which is my big question. Note that, to pass my theoretical "test" you don't even have to make a jump without it - you just have to be willing to.
But then you say:
>If I ever found out that it was off during the ride to altitude though,
> I'm pretty sure I'd jump anyway.
So to me it sounds like you are willing to jump without it, which is my big question. Note that, to pass my theoretical "test" you don't even have to make a jump without it - you just have to be willing to.
MarkM 0
QuoteI believe that any argument against the use of a Cypres in recreational skydiving is a rationalization for being stupid!
Do you drive a car? Do you wear a helmet while driving a car?
Considering that wearing a helmet while driving a car can significantly reduce the potential for head trauma in an accident aren't you stupid for not wearing one?
billvon 2,435
>Bill, would you say that someone who refuses to jump without a
> visual alitmeter should stay on the ground because they are too
>reliant on it?
Someone who refused to do a hop and pop at 3000 feet without a working visual altimeter? I would have to say that they were relying on it way too much. What's it good for on a hop and pop? Telling cutaway altitudes? Your altimeter will not always be visible during a mal - a spinner may jam a chest mount into or past your chin, and your hands may be too busy to let you peek at a wrist mount altimeter.
>Or how about a hook knife?
Again, someone who would not consider a hop and pop without a hook knife may have an unrealistic expectation of what that knife can really do for them. Note that I don't think that means that these people should not jump, but rather that they should think carefully about whether they are over-reliant on their gear.
> visual alitmeter should stay on the ground because they are too
>reliant on it?
Someone who refused to do a hop and pop at 3000 feet without a working visual altimeter? I would have to say that they were relying on it way too much. What's it good for on a hop and pop? Telling cutaway altitudes? Your altimeter will not always be visible during a mal - a spinner may jam a chest mount into or past your chin, and your hands may be too busy to let you peek at a wrist mount altimeter.
>Or how about a hook knife?
Again, someone who would not consider a hop and pop without a hook knife may have an unrealistic expectation of what that knife can really do for them. Note that I don't think that means that these people should not jump, but rather that they should think carefully about whether they are over-reliant on their gear.
QuoteDo you drive a car? Do you wear a helmet while driving a car?
Specious argument. Not wearing a helmet does not mean 100% fatality rate. Not wearing a Cypres while unconsious in freefall does.
billvon 2,435
>But guess what....airline pilots do lose situational awareness.
>These are backups.
Oh, I agree. They do contribute to safety overall. However, they too can contribute to complacency. If an MD-80 pilot loses altitude awareness while dealing with an engine fire, and the GPWS alerts him that he's too low, it just did a good job. If a pilot gets a clearance that seems too low for the terrain around a mountainous airport, and thinks to himself "Well, the GPWS will warn me if we do get too low, so I'll take the clearance" that piece of equipment might just have done more harm than good. It is how the operator uses the equipment that makes the difference.
Same with a cypres. Used correctly they are pretty useful pieces of electronics. In at least one case that I know of, the incorrect use of a cypres contributed to a fatality.
>Do we go out and rip on people who jump with RSLs? Tell them they
>are unsafe because they are relying on a safety device that could kill
> them in some situations? I don't think we do.
I would. If I discovered a jumper who had a serious doubt about his ability to remember to pull the silver handle, but decided it was OK because he had an RSL and could just pull the red handle, then I'd tell him he was placing too much reliance on his RSL as well. Similarly, if there are jumpers out there who absolutely refuse to ever jump without an RSL, they may be trusting in their gear a little too much.
>These are backups.
Oh, I agree. They do contribute to safety overall. However, they too can contribute to complacency. If an MD-80 pilot loses altitude awareness while dealing with an engine fire, and the GPWS alerts him that he's too low, it just did a good job. If a pilot gets a clearance that seems too low for the terrain around a mountainous airport, and thinks to himself "Well, the GPWS will warn me if we do get too low, so I'll take the clearance" that piece of equipment might just have done more harm than good. It is how the operator uses the equipment that makes the difference.
Same with a cypres. Used correctly they are pretty useful pieces of electronics. In at least one case that I know of, the incorrect use of a cypres contributed to a fatality.
>Do we go out and rip on people who jump with RSLs? Tell them they
>are unsafe because they are relying on a safety device that could kill
> them in some situations? I don't think we do.
I would. If I discovered a jumper who had a serious doubt about his ability to remember to pull the silver handle, but decided it was OK because he had an RSL and could just pull the red handle, then I'd tell him he was placing too much reliance on his RSL as well. Similarly, if there are jumpers out there who absolutely refuse to ever jump without an RSL, they may be trusting in their gear a little too much.
Cheese and Rice!!! A friend builds components for that system. He explained all the crazy things it does. Like the over ride buttons on the PIC and SIC controls. It's like a freakin quiz show!!! I never want to fly on an Airbus.
PIC- I'll take right turn for $400 Alex
Alex- Sorry the SIC got to his buzzer first.
SIC- I'll take high speed dive for $1000!!!
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