skygirlpc 0 #1 October 9, 2002 Hey! I know this is a debatable subject, but after reading some posts in the incidents forum I thought I would throw this at ya'll. I have around forty jumps and don't have my own gear. So I just started using a guys rig that doesn't have an RSL. Is this a dumb idea or is forty jumps far enough along to go without one? Thanks for your input! Danielle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #2 October 9, 2002 If you have to ask... Actually its your decision in the end, screw what peoples opinions are and do what makes you happy. If you don't like the felling of not having one, add one. If it bothers you its there, take it off. If you don't care... think it over again and make a decision that you can live with (and can explain your decision to your family if you die from it/lack of it)Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #3 October 9, 2002 Yes, it's a dumb idea. Unless you can explain why you shouldn't have one, you should. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zlew 0 #4 October 9, 2002 It's one of those things that just depends.... For the most part, most folks at your level will do better with one than without...but I woudn't necessarly not jump becuase the rig I had didn't have one (Esp. if you have a cypres). More people have died cuz they didn't have one than because they did, and with lower performcance gear and nothing to make things crazy (sky surfing, CREW, Video etc.) it usually doesn't hurt to have one. As A JM, I usually reccomend people keep them until they can really tell me why they don't want one. I took mine off when I started jumping loaded eliptical canopies and video. Hope you have a Cypres at least. Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lummy 4 #5 October 9, 2002 Quotebut I woudn't necessarly not jump becuase the rig I had didn't have one (Esp. if you have a cypres). Okay, I'm being a shit ;). And why is a Cypres a replacement for an RSL? don't they serve two different purposes? Why would we need one if the other does the same thing?I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drenaline 0 #6 October 9, 2002 Remember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. If you get nervous jumping without it then the problem is bigger, go back to the training harness and practice those pulls. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zlew 0 #7 October 9, 2002 Never said it was a replacement. However, most of the times you cutaway, a cypres will save your butt even if you don't pull without an RSL UNLESS you are very low. Cypres fires down to 350ft(right? or is it 300?), so guess what, if you for some reason chop at 6-700ft (in most cases, can be higher or lower), or below, cypres isn't going to save your butt, but an RSL would. However, the vast majority of cutaway and no pulls happen with enough alt. to get your speeed up for cypres. There are times when an RSL would save you and cypres would let you bounce (and there are times u are too low to chop and survive at all). But I wouldn't feel nearly as naked jumping a rig without an RSL that has a cypres, than have a low timer on borrowed gear with out an RSL or cypres.... tha'ts all I meant. Like I said, I reccomend RSL's for most jumpers, esp. low timers. It has saved a lot more people than it has killed. Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skreamer 1 #8 October 9, 2002 QuoteRemember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. I know a skydiver with 12 000 jumps who still chooses to jump with one. And he has cutaway both with and without RSL (camera) quite a few times, so he is making an informed decision. Perhaps you know something he doesn't? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fudd 0 #9 October 9, 2002 Most important is that you practice your emergency procedure every day! I had a PC in tow mal on my 38th jump. No RSL but with cypress. Did what I had practised a thousand times. It worked. Since I jump without RSL I don't think it's a dumb idea to jump without one at 40 jumps. However, I believe it's safer to jump with one, since it can save your life if you cutaway low. I assume the rigg has a cypress. I bought a used rig without an RSL. I've decided to not have one installed because I'm a bit sceptic to the RSL system on a vector II. Too much of the RSL is exposed as it goes on the outside of the rigg, attaced with velcro (at least on the vector II's I've seen with RSL's). I'm afraid it could get snagged on something and cause a premature reserve opening. When I buy my next rigg, I'll probably buy one with RSL. There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mouth 0 #10 October 9, 2002 I bought my first rig at jump number 30, jumped it that weekend then got a spectre demo that Monday. We hooked it up but the RSL was on the wrong side so it was tucked under. Jump #38 I had line twists to where the risers were twisted so tight they pinned my head down; however, by turning my head from side to side I could see square corners so I thought I was ok. Finally, fairly low I got out of the mess only to look up and see a line over bow tie. I cut it away and because I had practiced pulling both handles that is exactly what I did. No RSL was necessary because I did what I had practiced so many times. I had enough time to turn 180 and land so I was pretty low by the time I got through with everything. My point is....RSL or not you should always practice pulling BOTH handles and always pull BOTH handles. (I can't think of an good reason not to pull both handles....anyone else???) Lisa -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pop 0 #11 October 9, 2002 Here is a question. If you are gonna pull one handle, are you going to pull the other?7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #12 October 9, 2002 "My point is....RSL or not you should always practice pulling BOTH handles and always pull BOTH handles. (I can't think of an good reason not to pull both handles....anyone else???) " Yes, people don't. They goof around trying to fix stuff until they are too low. They have time to chop, but not enough time to get to the second handle. The "no-pull, low-pull" column used to be a much larger number. It is smaller now, thanks in part to RSLs. People may practice pulling both handles and they would definitely like to, but not have time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christoofar 0 #13 October 9, 2002 Quote Hey! I know this is a debatable subject, but after reading some posts in the incidents forum I thought I would throw this at ya'll. I have around forty jumps and don't have my own gear. So I just started using a guys rig that doesn't have an RSL. Is this a dumb idea or is forty jumps far enough along to go without one? Thanks for your input! Danielle Danielle: Do a search for RSL in the Gear and Rigging forum. This subject has been debated to the point where now it's almost an existential question. As always, make your own decisions. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #14 October 9, 2002 Like others have said, it's your decision. I did 600+ jumps without an RSL or Cypres. Today I have 900 jumps and have both on my rig. Personally, I'm not going to tell anyone that having or not having an additional safety device (like an RSL or Cypres) is a dumb idea. We all make our own decisions, we all have to live (or not) with the consequences of those decisions. Regardless of if you have an RSL (and/or Cypres) or not, you can do everything right skydiving and still die. Having either one or both installed on the gear you are jumping may make the difference between life and death for you someday, but having either one could also CREATE an emergency situation. You can see what some very experienced jumpers think about RSL usage here. Do your research, learn the pros and cons of having one, then make an informed decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #15 October 9, 2002 "you can do everything right skydiving and still die. " I wish it was mandatory that every dz had this on a sign over the manifest window. (No one seems to believe it anyway.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,662 #16 October 9, 2002 Quote Remember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. If you get nervous jumping without it then the problem is bigger, go back to the training harness and practice those pulls. How does anyone that has never had an emergency know if they will perform the emergency procedures with no problem? There's a world of difference between practicing on the ground (a good thing) and doing it in the air in a stressful situation with a harness that may be twisted and out of position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lummy 4 #17 October 9, 2002 QuoteHow does anyone that has never had an emergency know if they will perform the emergency procedures with no problem? And this is one of the reasons why I have one, I don't know how I will react when the shit hits the fan. I made a promise to myself that when it comes down to it, if I don't have both handles in my hands, it's time to seriously think if this sport is for me. An RSL just might provide me with an opportunity to answer that question.I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #18 October 9, 2002 QuoteHere is a question. If you are gonna pull one handle, are you going to pull the other? I have seen a film of a demo jumper burn in after a cut away. He pulled the first one fine but never pulled the reserve handle. It sounds crazy....but it happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pop 0 #19 October 9, 2002 QuoteQuoteHere is a question. If you are gonna pull one handle, are you going to pull the other? I have seen a film of a demo jumper burn in after a cut away. He pulled the first one fine but never pulled the reserve handle. It sounds crazy....but it happened. I wonder if he was relying on his RSL.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #20 October 9, 2002 Quote He pulled the first one fine but never pulled the reserve handle. It sounds crazy....but it happened. A good friend of mine did the same thing. He had well over 1000 jumps at the time. I miss him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #21 October 9, 2002 QuoteI wonder if he was relying on his RSL Nope...he cut away and then spent the rest of his life slapping his reserve handle. In short..he paniced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,456 #22 October 9, 2002 >However, the vast majority of cutaway and no pulls happen with > enough alt. to get your speeed up for cypres. However, the ones that happen lower are the ones where you really, really need an RSL - and are also where a cypres will not help you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,456 #23 October 9, 2002 >Remember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency > procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. Rick Horn, who teaches about 30% of all the AFF-JM's in the country, has about 7000 jumps, and teaches cutaways every weekend, once needed his RSL when his harness twisted up during a spinner. RSL's are not just for people who can't do emergency procedures (unless you want to argue that Rick is competent to teach instructors how to teach cutaways, but incompetent to actually do them.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites drenaline 0 #24 October 9, 2002 I won't argue with people that know more than I do and have more experience in the sport than me. I just posted my way of thinking. I trust more my red and silver pulls than the RSL or the cypres. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jessica 0 #25 October 9, 2002 That's a scary m.f. story. Here's a rec.skydiving post with the text: groups.google.com/groups?q=cutaway+%22rick+horn%22+group:rec.skydiving&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=FiaS3.844%24gX.6408%40news.rdc1.az.home.com&rnum=7Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
PhreeZone 15 #2 October 9, 2002 If you have to ask... Actually its your decision in the end, screw what peoples opinions are and do what makes you happy. If you don't like the felling of not having one, add one. If it bothers you its there, take it off. If you don't care... think it over again and make a decision that you can live with (and can explain your decision to your family if you die from it/lack of it)Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #3 October 9, 2002 Yes, it's a dumb idea. Unless you can explain why you shouldn't have one, you should. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #4 October 9, 2002 It's one of those things that just depends.... For the most part, most folks at your level will do better with one than without...but I woudn't necessarly not jump becuase the rig I had didn't have one (Esp. if you have a cypres). More people have died cuz they didn't have one than because they did, and with lower performcance gear and nothing to make things crazy (sky surfing, CREW, Video etc.) it usually doesn't hurt to have one. As A JM, I usually reccomend people keep them until they can really tell me why they don't want one. I took mine off when I started jumping loaded eliptical canopies and video. Hope you have a Cypres at least. Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #5 October 9, 2002 Quotebut I woudn't necessarly not jump becuase the rig I had didn't have one (Esp. if you have a cypres). Okay, I'm being a shit ;). And why is a Cypres a replacement for an RSL? don't they serve two different purposes? Why would we need one if the other does the same thing?I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #6 October 9, 2002 Remember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. If you get nervous jumping without it then the problem is bigger, go back to the training harness and practice those pulls. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #7 October 9, 2002 Never said it was a replacement. However, most of the times you cutaway, a cypres will save your butt even if you don't pull without an RSL UNLESS you are very low. Cypres fires down to 350ft(right? or is it 300?), so guess what, if you for some reason chop at 6-700ft (in most cases, can be higher or lower), or below, cypres isn't going to save your butt, but an RSL would. However, the vast majority of cutaway and no pulls happen with enough alt. to get your speeed up for cypres. There are times when an RSL would save you and cypres would let you bounce (and there are times u are too low to chop and survive at all). But I wouldn't feel nearly as naked jumping a rig without an RSL that has a cypres, than have a low timer on borrowed gear with out an RSL or cypres.... tha'ts all I meant. Like I said, I reccomend RSL's for most jumpers, esp. low timers. It has saved a lot more people than it has killed. Z Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #8 October 9, 2002 QuoteRemember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. I know a skydiver with 12 000 jumps who still chooses to jump with one. And he has cutaway both with and without RSL (camera) quite a few times, so he is making an informed decision. Perhaps you know something he doesn't? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #9 October 9, 2002 Most important is that you practice your emergency procedure every day! I had a PC in tow mal on my 38th jump. No RSL but with cypress. Did what I had practised a thousand times. It worked. Since I jump without RSL I don't think it's a dumb idea to jump without one at 40 jumps. However, I believe it's safer to jump with one, since it can save your life if you cutaway low. I assume the rigg has a cypress. I bought a used rig without an RSL. I've decided to not have one installed because I'm a bit sceptic to the RSL system on a vector II. Too much of the RSL is exposed as it goes on the outside of the rigg, attaced with velcro (at least on the vector II's I've seen with RSL's). I'm afraid it could get snagged on something and cause a premature reserve opening. When I buy my next rigg, I'll probably buy one with RSL. There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #10 October 9, 2002 I bought my first rig at jump number 30, jumped it that weekend then got a spectre demo that Monday. We hooked it up but the RSL was on the wrong side so it was tucked under. Jump #38 I had line twists to where the risers were twisted so tight they pinned my head down; however, by turning my head from side to side I could see square corners so I thought I was ok. Finally, fairly low I got out of the mess only to look up and see a line over bow tie. I cut it away and because I had practiced pulling both handles that is exactly what I did. No RSL was necessary because I did what I had practiced so many times. I had enough time to turn 180 and land so I was pretty low by the time I got through with everything. My point is....RSL or not you should always practice pulling BOTH handles and always pull BOTH handles. (I can't think of an good reason not to pull both handles....anyone else???) Lisa -- Hot Mama At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #11 October 9, 2002 Here is a question. If you are gonna pull one handle, are you going to pull the other?7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #12 October 9, 2002 "My point is....RSL or not you should always practice pulling BOTH handles and always pull BOTH handles. (I can't think of an good reason not to pull both handles....anyone else???) " Yes, people don't. They goof around trying to fix stuff until they are too low. They have time to chop, but not enough time to get to the second handle. The "no-pull, low-pull" column used to be a much larger number. It is smaller now, thanks in part to RSLs. People may practice pulling both handles and they would definitely like to, but not have time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christoofar 0 #13 October 9, 2002 Quote Hey! I know this is a debatable subject, but after reading some posts in the incidents forum I thought I would throw this at ya'll. I have around forty jumps and don't have my own gear. So I just started using a guys rig that doesn't have an RSL. Is this a dumb idea or is forty jumps far enough along to go without one? Thanks for your input! Danielle Danielle: Do a search for RSL in the Gear and Rigging forum. This subject has been debated to the point where now it's almost an existential question. As always, make your own decisions. ____________________________________________________________ I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #14 October 9, 2002 Like others have said, it's your decision. I did 600+ jumps without an RSL or Cypres. Today I have 900 jumps and have both on my rig. Personally, I'm not going to tell anyone that having or not having an additional safety device (like an RSL or Cypres) is a dumb idea. We all make our own decisions, we all have to live (or not) with the consequences of those decisions. Regardless of if you have an RSL (and/or Cypres) or not, you can do everything right skydiving and still die. Having either one or both installed on the gear you are jumping may make the difference between life and death for you someday, but having either one could also CREATE an emergency situation. You can see what some very experienced jumpers think about RSL usage here. Do your research, learn the pros and cons of having one, then make an informed decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #15 October 9, 2002 "you can do everything right skydiving and still die. " I wish it was mandatory that every dz had this on a sign over the manifest window. (No one seems to believe it anyway.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,662 #16 October 9, 2002 Quote Remember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. If you get nervous jumping without it then the problem is bigger, go back to the training harness and practice those pulls. How does anyone that has never had an emergency know if they will perform the emergency procedures with no problem? There's a world of difference between practicing on the ground (a good thing) and doing it in the air in a stressful situation with a harness that may be twisted and out of position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lummy 4 #17 October 9, 2002 QuoteHow does anyone that has never had an emergency know if they will perform the emergency procedures with no problem? And this is one of the reasons why I have one, I don't know how I will react when the shit hits the fan. I made a promise to myself that when it comes down to it, if I don't have both handles in my hands, it's time to seriously think if this sport is for me. An RSL just might provide me with an opportunity to answer that question.I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. I promise not to TP Davis under canopy.. eat sushi, get smoochieTTK#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #18 October 9, 2002 QuoteHere is a question. If you are gonna pull one handle, are you going to pull the other? I have seen a film of a demo jumper burn in after a cut away. He pulled the first one fine but never pulled the reserve handle. It sounds crazy....but it happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #19 October 9, 2002 QuoteQuoteHere is a question. If you are gonna pull one handle, are you going to pull the other? I have seen a film of a demo jumper burn in after a cut away. He pulled the first one fine but never pulled the reserve handle. It sounds crazy....but it happened. I wonder if he was relying on his RSL.7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #20 October 9, 2002 Quote He pulled the first one fine but never pulled the reserve handle. It sounds crazy....but it happened. A good friend of mine did the same thing. He had well over 1000 jumps at the time. I miss him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #21 October 9, 2002 QuoteI wonder if he was relying on his RSL Nope...he cut away and then spent the rest of his life slapping his reserve handle. In short..he paniced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,456 #22 October 9, 2002 >However, the vast majority of cutaway and no pulls happen with > enough alt. to get your speeed up for cypres. However, the ones that happen lower are the ones where you really, really need an RSL - and are also where a cypres will not help you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,456 #23 October 9, 2002 >Remember RSL is a backup, if you can do your emergency > procedures with no problem then you will need no RSL. Rick Horn, who teaches about 30% of all the AFF-JM's in the country, has about 7000 jumps, and teaches cutaways every weekend, once needed his RSL when his harness twisted up during a spinner. RSL's are not just for people who can't do emergency procedures (unless you want to argue that Rick is competent to teach instructors how to teach cutaways, but incompetent to actually do them.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drenaline 0 #24 October 9, 2002 I won't argue with people that know more than I do and have more experience in the sport than me. I just posted my way of thinking. I trust more my red and silver pulls than the RSL or the cypres. HISPA 21 www.panamafreefall.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #25 October 9, 2002 That's a scary m.f. story. Here's a rec.skydiving post with the text: groups.google.com/groups?q=cutaway+%22rick+horn%22+group:rec.skydiving&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=FiaS3.844%24gX.6408%40news.rdc1.az.home.com&rnum=7Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
