Something to make you think...

[jerm 0]

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If people would just realize that it's only modern man that has the answers . . .

shouldn't it be considered a personal attack to shove words into someone's mouth?

No, it has nothing to do with modern-man vs historic man. Sun-Tzu's teachings stand up in practice , the constitution is a good idea that was flawed and allows for corrections. We don't scientifically understand raikki and accupuncture yet either, but there's empirical evidence of their benefit and we're allowed to ask the questions and study them critically.

Religion is the only area of "learning" (I use use the term loosely this case) where it is not only frowned upon to ask the tough questions or display different views, but it'll get you shot instead of laughed at if you do it in the wrong circles. It's the only area where "it works in mysterious ways" is accepted as a trump card anytime its assertions and arguments are shown to not hold water in one way or another.

Sure, the bible was a good story, it had sex and violence and betrayal and revenge and destruction and all the stuff the movie-going audience appreciates (including some great special effects -- did you see the scene where that Moses character spread the read sea wide open? way-cool, or the fire & lightning that destroyed those cities? wicked!), and it even has some good lessons and things we can learn from.

It's ludicrous, however, to summarily accept it as the word and law of "god" after all of the the transcriptions, revisions, translations and general manipulation by whomever happened to be in charge at the time. And that's even BEFORE we take into account that the damned thing was written by men with their own biases, opinions, viewpoints and agendas. Inspired by god? says who? them? the book? Please..

The thing was written as a parable to teach basic morality to people of ancient times in the language of ancient times and did a good job of it. They said it was the word of god so people would buy into it and it worked. One hell of a sales-pitch, too... Apparently they bought the it hook, line, sinker and whole-frikkin-boat because 2000 years later people are STILL buying into the sales-guy's promises.

PT Barnum must have been descended from these guys, seriously, cause the only people you can go to to definitively speak to the product's effectiveness are DEAD.... it's brilliant!!

Someone today should think of that, probably make a mint... oh wait... L Ron Hubbard already did, damn. Non-scientologist people call him a quack, yet how is the story that he made up any more outlandish than the ones that older religions hold so near & dear?
Seriously.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[Zenister 0]

Uh..a nice essay, but you MIGHT not want to go to far down that path

the Romans created the 'soldier' as job, the word soldier comes for "solis" some one correct my latin please specifically named after the money they were paid to fight because they were a professional fighting force.

i also think your mistaken in assuming our military has no 'warriors'. i know quite a few and as much as we like to say they do it for "flag & country" many of them do it for their own concepts of honor and glory, rather than the pithance we pay them to fight

which in no way cheapens the sacrifices they make for our freedom.


if you think the japanese army was made largely of "uncoordinated rabble" then you really need to check again...what the romans introduced was a "cookie cutter" approach to warfare, that has served well in the past, but that is losing its hold on the modern military in favor of the more flexible and more effective "asymetrical warfare"

the problem of interservice rivalry was specifically addressed by the creation of CENTCOM & SOCOM that make the decisions about what "tools" are right for the job.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Guest]

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Uh..a nice essay, but you MIGHT not want to go to far down that path

the Romans created the 'soldier' as job, the word soldier comes for "solis" some one correct my latin please specifically named after the money they were paid to fight because they were a professional fighting force.

I think the word you're looking for in that case is "Mercenary", but that's not fair, given that they were professional soldiers as opposed to goons conscripted off the street, given weapons, pointed in the direction of the enemy, and told to fight, with no clear organization or sense of purpose, save the promise of loot. But then that's piracy, not warfare.

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i also think your mistaken in assuming our military has no 'warriors'. i know quite a few and as much as we like to say they do it for "flag & country" many of them do it for their own concepts of honor and glory, rather than the pithance we pay them to fight

Of course that is a motivation, but my thrust is that it's not the major, defining one. If it is, then they're in it for the wrong reasons. There are no "Rambos" in our services - those get sorted out rather quickly, in my experience.

By definition, a "warrior" fights for his individual glory. A soldier fights for the higher order, such as his fellows, or his country, as opposed to his family or clan.

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which in no way cheapens the sacrifices they make for our freedom.

Agreed.

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if you think the japanese army was made largely of "uncoordinated rabble" then you really need to check again...what the romans introduced was a "cookie cutter" approach to warfare, that has served well in the past, but that is losing its hold on the modern military in favor of the more flexible and more effective "asymetrical warfare"

The example referred to collective mob or clan violence which was largely uncoordinated. Armies are by definition far more coordinated and directed, whereas a "warrior" pretty much just goes out looking for another warrior to duke it out with. This wasn't meant to reflect on the military organization of the Daimyo as it existed in 17th Century Japan. Rather, it was more analogous to the Picts and other mob-violence forces that the Romans encountered, which were hopelessly outclassed and easily swept aside by the highly organized and disciplined troops from Italy

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the problem of interservice rivalry was specifically addressed by the creation of CENTCOM & SOCOM that make the decisions about what "tools" are right for the job.

I agree with you that the "asymetric" approach is the correct one, and I'm glad to see that the lessons have been learned and applied.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[jraf 0]

And that you should. What you see is what you get.

Wendy quite rightly noticed - it is the way I see the world. You see it differently. To each his own. My cynicism is based on my experience.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[Zenister 0]

no a 'mercenary' fought for the highest bidder and was often paid "per battle" sometimes fighting on opposing sides in the same conflict

a 'soldier' was often pressed into service (each house hold was required to keep arms for this purpose the richer citizens made up the better troops) for an inital term and remained there for the pay

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SOLIDVS
Gold coin, i/72 of a Roman pound (4.48g) that kept its weight and stability for several
centuries until late Byzantine times. It was called a Bezant by medieval Europeans and was copied in many nations because it was currency whose value could be trusted.

the monthly salary IRC..

and i'm not refering to a "rambo" stereotype. I'm talking about men & women who take pride in their personal abilities and skill at arms and have made that their profession by serving the military.

we are certainly quibling over minor hairs here, but the original definition is more correct.

a Warrior is "one who is skilled in the art of warfare" and there are a great many of them serving in our current armed forces

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a "warrior" pretty much just goes out looking for another warrior to duke it out with

you dont think that applies in the 'newly rediscovered' enivroment where our military seeks out the members of the opposing force rather than carpetbomb the populace into submission?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Guest]

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we are certainly quibling over minor hairs here, but the original definition is more correct.

Quibble, quibble

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you dont think that applies in the 'newly rediscovered' enivroment where our military seeks out the members of the opposing force rather than carpetbomb the populace into submission?

That's certainly an interesting way to put it.

However, I think the initial thread-forking got started when there was a disagreement over PFC Johnson's role. He was a soldier in a support mission, but that doesn't make him any less worthy.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[misterhand 0]

SOMEONE SET UP US THE BOMB.
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US.
YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME

[Guest]

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SOMEONE SET UP US THE BOMB.
ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US.
YOU HAVE NO CHANCE TO SURVIVE MAKE YOUR TIME

You left out "HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN", and "YOU ARE ON THE WAY TO DESTRUCTION"...

hehehe

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Zenister 0]

i like to discuss things to much sometimes..

the way i see it our military is primarily made up of soldiers, those who do very important, very necessary functions in the conduct of military operations.

it also contains a number of warriors, those who train continually to become proficient at their chosen arms and have used their abilities in the course of their service.

i was once a soldier, and still support all aspects of our military, both personally and professionally everyday as i do my job. (what I do still perhaps qualifies, but I will not call myself one as I don’t bear the same responsibilities anymore that they do)

i am by no means a modern warrior. I lack the skills and training they practice daily.
there are not many who would be happy to see me across the blade of their sword however

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[misterhand 0]

HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN
YOU ARE ON THE WAY TO DESTRUCTION
WHAT YOU SAY!
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DOING.
MOVE ZIG
FOR GREAT JUSTICE

[freeflyz 0]

I've been reading this since it started and seen two things,On one side you have people that don't care about people's feeling but there own. On the other side people that care about the fallen brothers and sisters! It does not matter if there soldiers,warriors,skydivers,bums,or anything, there where human they had people that loved them dearly and are going to miss them alot. Could you look into a childs eyes and tell them there dad/mom has passed away and who cares it's part of there job? I think not! Just A thought!

[Guest]

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HOW ARE YOU GENTLEMEN
YOU ARE ON THE WAY TO DESTRUCTION
WHAT YOU SAY!
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU DOING.
MOVE ZIG
FOR GREAT JUSTICE

That's better

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Muenkel 0]

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Could you look into a childs eyes and tell them there dad/mom has passed away and who cares it's part of there job? I think not! Just A thought!

Unfortunately Luis, I think some people can. And that is a sad truth.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[jraf 0]

Can anyone tell me why I should care more than the politicians and thier advising generals who sent the kid out there in the first place?

If all you fine Tic Tok'ers (and I mean generally war supporters as a group) were not so trigger happy, if all you would let the administration know that the popular vote goes against the conflict then all you fine mourning humans would not have to mourn the fallen "warrior"

You fine humans have what you wanted. Don't ask me to care. I did before. Now I deal with statistics. You fine humans deal with the children, and have fun at it.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[billvon 2,400]

>the constitution is a good idea that was flawed and allows for corrections.

And that's different from the bible how? There are dozens of religions based on it; thousands of interpretations of it. Those interpretations change with time. None are invalid because one of those religions was bad, or did evil things - just as the constitution is not invalid just because it was written by slaveowners.

>Religion is the only area of "learning" (I use use the term loosely this
> case) where it is not only frowned upon to ask the tough questions or
> display different views, but it'll get you shot instead of laughed at if
> you do it in the wrong circles.

In the US, you get frowned upon bigtime if you protest a war - and in some places, run over or beat up. At one time, protesting got four US students shot. The constitution, if it is what 'leads' our country, has gotten millions killed in wars. I know, all those wars were 'good' - I won't argue with that.

For the most part, though, dissention is tolerated in the US. If you were to go to a seminary, you'd see the same dissention - people asking questions, people challenging old beliefs. If you are too radical in either place you'll get resistance (i.e. you want to advocate assassination of the president, or want to declare 'god is dead', expect some fierce resistance.) Take a few courses in religious studies and see if any questions get asked. I think you'd be suprised.

>It's ludicrous, however, to summarily accept it as the word and law of
> "god" after all of the the transcriptions, revisions, translations and
> general manipulation by whomever happened to be in charge at the
> time.

Yet exactly the same thing happened to the constitution. We seem to take that as law.

>The thing was written as a parable to teach basic morality to people of
> ancient times in the language of ancient times and did a good job of
> it.

Yep. Still does, for the most part. The art of war hasn't changed much in 2500 years, morality hasn't changed much either.

>Non-scientologist people call him a quack, yet how is the story that he
> made up any more outlandish than the ones that older religions
>hold so near & dear?

I don't see much difference there, other than his is a small, recent religion. It has merit to those who believe in it. Why disparage it because it's new and different? That's just as foolish as disparaging the bible because it's old and boring.

[Amazon 7]

The kid is dead, the reason why he died is not clear to me.

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The reason he died.. is very simple.
He was protecting you!!. By going there maybe we will not have terrorists getting their hands on chemical or biological weapons and using them in this or other western countries. In this war, far more civilians like you or your friends will die than people in our military. In one of the other posts you said something about the american dead by the 100's or thousands instead of just the 127 dead so far and we not having the stomach for it. I know that it makes some of the so called anti war people mad and they would LOVE to see many americans dead and Saddams fedayeen so far have not fulfilled their fantasies. Actually our body count is already well over 3000. This will be a long war and there will be more before it is over.
***

Am I cynical? As hell, and feel good about it. And I don't expect to be mourned after I buy it. Use the usable organs and dump the rest of me into a swamp so the gators can have some lunch.

When you do "buy it" in one of these attacks... the parts wont be usable anyway. And the gators wont be interested either, I always thought thier tastes were fairly discriminating, just the bacteria... to return you to dust.

Amazon

[sinker 0]

Mouth said it best...

You are a better person for ignoring JRAF and his disrespectful posts. All he will do is continue.
And no, MissKriss, he doesn't have a heart. Says so
himself. Poor bastard.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Pammi 0]

Well said LouDiamond.

At the very least, the dead deserve some respect.
When someone loses their life, be it skydiving, crossing the street or in war, it's a life. It's really not that complicated. Opinions on that person's life are just that, opinions, and their's only one who is qualified to judge any of us.

Pammi

[sinker 0]

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if the creator of the universe really is the petty, trivial, mean, backbiting immature impulsive twisted short
sighted easily addressed constantly interfering domineering intolerant primitive simpleminded unimaginative brutal cruel psychopath the writers of the bible were "inspired by god" to depict, there isnt enough room in the cosmos for the two of us. one of us has got to go. it aint gonna be me.

Lucifer? Is that you? I THOUGHT I smelt something burning in here!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Luminous 0]

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Lucifer? Is that you?

See attached.

BSBD

'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

[JJohnson 0]

We need to clarify two things:

1) He is a Marine. NOT a soldier. A Marine is a higher life form that a soldier and we take offense at being demoted to "soldier" status.

2) Being a Marine makes him a warrior. Marines are not mindless combatants who follow orders blindly. Marines think for themselves, fight and live with honor seldom know by mere mortals. Marines know a glory that no other simple soldier could ever understand; and know that God has a special place in Heaven just for them. We guard the Pearly Gates so be nice to us or we won't let you in. We are the few, the proud......that band of brothers, the elite family of warriors that you know as The United States Marines. end of discussion.

Semper Fidelis

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[jfields 0]

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A Marine is a higher life form that a soldier and we take offense at being demoted to "soldier" status.

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Marines know a glory that no other simple soldier could ever understand; and know that God has a special place in Heaven just for them.

In a word: bullshit.

Which branch of military service you choose has no bearing on whether god likes you, even if god exists. If Marines are so much more evolved and focused on honor than the other services, why do Marines go bad? Why do Marines get punished under the UCMJ? The answer is that they are just people. Just like soldiers. Just like sailors, etc. There are good people and bad, in everything.

Perhaps it is time to reacquaint yourself with the facts and tone down the rhetoric. Just a friendly suggestion.

[Zenister 0]

lol not to disparage any service, but SOME marines are exactly as you describe them not to be and couldnt 'think' their way out of a paper sack without a gunney to tell them which direction to go...and this STILL makes them no better or worse than any other service member who gives their time & lives for their country..

take your head out of the jar sometime freefall is much better that way

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[JJohnson 0]

You are entitled to your opinion.......we Marines make sure that right is protected........of course your opinion is wrong, but not being a Marine I expect nothing else from you.
>Tone down the rhetoric??? And deprive you all of the gospel that is the USMC??? I mean we are talking about God's chosen here. Marines don't go bad.....it's all part of a secret undercover thing that you wouldn't understand.....Face these facts my friend, Marines are not good, they are the best and when they're bad they are even better.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[JJohnson 0]

These Marines that you are refering to? I have a simple explanation:

These are the elite of the other three services: Army, Navy and Airforce. We took them on the slight chance that they might make the grade as a jarhead. It is a common known fact that a Corporal in the Marines is equal to a Colonel in the other branches of service.

This program is a little charity the Marines offer to the other three services. After we get them up to par, we send them back to their units where they normally go on to great things. Admiral Nimitz for example was once a Pfc in the Marines. Macarthur was a Sgt in the Marines, Patton made it to Gunny before going on to fame back in the Army.

The Marines cannot be everywhere, so we need to help the other three along, you see.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"