Something to make you think...

[mnischalke 0]

Just got thinking and I wondered about your reaction to a story I know for fact happened. Let's see.

Buddy of mine is a Secret Service agent away from home (wife, two stepsons, 7-month-old twin boys) doing site work for an upcoming VIP visit. His shift ends at 7am and he heads down to the parking garage to grab something and then head up to his room to catch a few hours of zzz. An hour or so later, a pair of jets piloted by those of various middle eastern descent careen into the side of two big buildings he had been working in. The folks he worked with told him they would see him later as he went into the garage. They may have been the last people who saw him alive. Then again, as a former Army medic with two Bronze Stars from Desert Storm, I think there were a few people who saw him after that, who are probably alive because of him. I am pretty sure since he was in an outbuilding to the twin towers he easily could have made it safely out of there, instead, he made his way into one of the twin towers to help people. That's the way he was. That's the kind of thing he was trained for. That was his job--saving the lives of others.

A little while later, the structural integrity of the buildings gave way, one at a time, and I think we know the rest. I never saw my friend again, but that pales to the fact Holly never saw her husband again. The twins never got to have a conversation about girls or hockey with their father, nor will they ever go shooting with him or help him restore an old car. Secret Service Press Release

I guess you can say it's "real sad." You can say "so what? He was doing his job." Whatever. I don't care. Just don't take the lives of others so lightly or carelessly with words. My mom told me something a really long time ago. You might have heard it: "if you can't say anything nice, don't say it at all." I think that goes doubly in regards to the plight of others.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[billvon 2,400]

>one of the last things that will happen is a war like no other war before, for Isreal.

Yep. And the bible also says that if you kill a man in battle, you get his wife. I don't really buy that. It also has verse after verse on how to treat slaves and servants. Over a century ago, some used that to claim that the bible condoned slavery. I don't buy that either.

>So, if you proclaim those things, then we still serve the same God that
>lead Moses out of Egypt, the same God that told Noah to build the Arc,
>the same God that lead his children to kill more then a few complete
>cities (in His name) to give them the promised land. Thus, we have a
>god that is most obviously not against war.

Well, you're using old testament examples there; the main difference between christianity and judaism is that new testament, and the new testament is decidedly less warlike than the old testament.

"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." - in both Matthew and Luke.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."- Matthew

"Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." - James.

It's a pretty common theme.

[AggieDave 6]

Yes, but to totally discount the Old Testament is to say you discount that God is forever and unchanging. If that is discounted, then funamentally, Christianity crumbles.

With that said, I do understand how the new convenant works and why Christ taught the way he did, but that still doesn't discount the Word of God, including the old testiment.

If you only believe parts of the Bible, then you're saying that part of the Bible is false. By proclaiming that, you practically proclaim that Christ was false, since he was the Word of God manifested on Earth, and the Bible is also the Word of God.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wmw999 2,123]

I realize it's quibbling, because we're talking about faith, and faith is what faith is.

If the Old Testament is not to be discounted, what do you do about the dietary and clothing laws? If you say that the whole thing is true or else the whole thing is irrelevant, there isn't a lot of room in the middle, or simply for different interpretations.

Is the Earth only 6300 (or however many) years old?

I honestly think it's possible to say that there are portions of the Old Testament (and New) that are historical, and others that are guidance. I do think this life we have matters, maybe not for the hereafter, but it's what we have now, to do the best with we can.

And I really think it's the height of arrogance to say, based on a multigenerational translation of partial texts, what God thinks.

I didn't get all this out of your post. But such is life, and thread hijackings.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AggieDave 6]

I did find it odd that we actually went this direction, instead of talking about our usual...guns.


mmmmm, guns...*drool*

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Zenister 0]

and to take that one step further, to claim that any single cultures expression of divinity is the "One true path" is just as narrow minded..

far better to read the entirety of human religious experience and look for the points of convergence than simply to rely on giving your faith to any single religions dogma or savior.

but then that wouldnt allow any group to think themselves "just a little bit superior"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[AggieDave 6]

There's a reason why I don't subscribe to the religion of Christianity anymore.

I'm still a very spiritual person, just not religous.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[dropdeded 0]

I did find it odd that we actually went this direction, instead of talking about our usual...guns.


mmmmm, guns...*drool*
__________________________________________________

OK,I qualified P.O.S.T (Peace Officer Standards and Training) tuesday and B.S.I.S (Bureau of Security and Investigative Services) today
(with a Glock 45)

dropdeded

------------------------------------------
The Dude Abides.
-

[AggieDave 6]

Sweet! Congrats!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SpeedRacer 1]

BOOBIES!!!!

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[jerm 0]

still amazes me the credence given to a ~2000 year old book compiled by a bunch of dopers to scare the peasants into submission.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

to scare the peasants into submission.

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[billvon 2,400]

> Yes, but to totally discount the Old Testament is to say you discount
> that God is forever and unchanging. If that is discounted, then
>funamentally, Christianity crumbles.

Oh, I don't believe that. The church didn't crumble when the earth was shown to be just one planet in a solar system among billions of systems in a galaxy. It didn't crumble when we discovered that the Noah's Ark thing was most likely a local phenomena, the destruction of a land bridge and creation of a huge new sea. Evolution won't destroy it, nor will proof that there is life elsewhere in the universe. The bible is just a book, a combination of history, parable and moral guide. It was written by men - inspired men, but like all men they make mistakes.

>If you only believe parts of the Bible, then you're saying that part of the
> Bible is false. By proclaiming that, you practically proclaim that Christ
>was false, since he was the Word of God manifested on Earth, and the
> Bible is also the Word of God.

I don't buy that either. The pope used to be infallible. Then he made some mistakes, and so they changed it to "infallible in matters of faith." The catholic church didn't collapse. The worth of the bible is not predicated in its absolute accuracy, any more than the constitution of the US is invalid because the original constitution says you have to give slaves back to their owners. The bible is many things to many people; I think it's a rare believer indeed who believes that every historical fact in the bible is 100% accurate.

[AggieDave 6]

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I don't buy that either

Damnit, you're going to make me go get the scriptures out that back that up, aren't you...I'm too damned busy for that right now.

Oh-well. Remind me, in a couple days and I'll dust my Bible off and get the scriptures for you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[billvon 2,400]

>Damnit, you're going to make me go get the scriptures out that back that up, aren't you..

Well, you could, but after four years of catholic high school I found you can refute just about anything in the bible with another quote from the bible. It's fun to do to get the brothers riled up but doesn't help prove either side.

[AggieDave 6]

For Christianity to work, you have to have faith in what you're reading, otherwise, you can explain away a lot...

Ok, enough of this, I've got to get back to work, I just got contracted to do some high-end web design work for a local company, and its a serious rush order. I'm creating a very nice site with flash embedded in parts and a shopping cart in under a week.

Sure anyone can do it in under a week, few will have it looking as good as my design...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[TheAnvil 0]

Good point Wendy. IRT the dietary restrictions, if you believe in the New Testament, Christ stated that it is what comes OUT of you that makes you evil, and that's the reason on which most religions base their renunciation of the pork ban, I do believe. You nailed it though - parts are historical, parts are guidance.

Anyone ever read any of the non-Canonical gospels? Like the Gospel of Thomas? Interesting reading.

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[misterhand 0]

ahh thank you jerm...reason speaks at last. so help me i am so sick of people quoting chapter and verse out of ye olde booke ofe crappe as if it were a physics text describing the state of reality and natural law. we get people on this very thread who on one hand quote this book as The Law As Inspired By God... this is The Truth, remember? your entire belief system is based on taking it literally, remember? all this talk of the lord said this the lord said that and im expected to take this and accept it as real, but every time you come across part of it that disagrees with your modern perspective the situation suddenly and conveniently changes to "i don't really buy that part, but...."
refresh me here but you bought the rest of it enough to judge me a bad man for not buying it.
come on people you're so close to freedom...
reject some of it reject all of it. its all 100% CRAP.
what is it about this "bible" that causes everyone to suddenly decide critical thinking and analysis dont apply to it?
i always wanted to get deep into theology but when i looked at it was appalled to discover its a field with no subject matter. none. zero with no ring around it. i READ your bible. all of it. twice. cover to cover. what i find in that book has NOTHING to do with reality. at all. a lot of crap thought up and written down by humans as ignorant as you'd expect humans of that era to be. book doesnt describe how reality got here. (analysis of hubble images does though, in a way that perfectly matches everything else we know about how the universe is put together and how it got here)
we know ten billion times more now in the glaring light of modern thought and global awareness than we did even a century ago. modern medical technology is a detailed awareness of a field that 100 years ago was an almost total mystery aside from gross anatomy. modern medical people would laugh if you handed them a medical text from the year 1136 and told them you expect them to take it literally and practice medicine by it. read it and youll find factual detailed descriptions of nonexistent phenomena, complete with properties preferences and interactions of those phenomena, and ways to deal with them....humours, fluxes and bleeding anyone? so why havent we similarly rejected the bible? its even older, makes even less sense, is written from a world picture like that of an uneducated but thoroughly indoctrinated 10-year old, self-contradicts 900 different ways and was written by a bunch of ignorant itinerant galilean fishermen inspired by some godstruck young reformer 2000 years ago none of whom can offer suitable advice or guidance for a modern mind. or am i still supposed to slay anyone i find working on a sunday? these people didnt even know their own planet, didnt even know it WAS a planet but somehow im supposed to take absolute moral and spiritual guidance from them? it was written by CAVE MEN unqualified to judge let alone dictate my behavior. always i hear about this lord wants me to do this or that. WHAT lord? i don't HAVE a lord. dont start telling me about the son of god. what god? yours? mine? the gods of the ancient greeks? mabuko tambui the congo deity? I don't HAVE a god. i DO believe in things bigger than myself, i can see them when i look up at night. energy. stars. galaxies. superclusters. black holes. infinity. there are levels humans cant see above and beyond our reality but you know theres even less room out there for such a limited concept as what humans call "god". i am an aggressive unbeliever who declared himself god's mortal enemy years ago. its a joke on myself since my weapon against my nonexistent enemy is my refusal to believe in the existence of that enemy other than as a false concept people believe in....which ironically is the only way to hurt Him assuming He really IS out there. ill have none of this crap about serving god or being subject to his judgement and answering to him post mortem. if he IS out there i think he will applaud little old me for being so spunky as to be willing to take him on with the same fearless gallantry displayed by the best kittens hurling themselves into battle armed with nothing but a few needles a lot of fuzz and a defiant do or die attitude. i am the enemy of god and would attack him if i could get at him which is exactly as futile as saying i want to kill santa claus. the concept OF god exists but not the being the concept describes. if there IS a god to meet after death, i won't be standing there before Holy Judgement waiting sheeplike to be disposed of...if your god exists, HE will have to answer to ME. if he doesnt like my attitude he can shove it. whats he going to do, kill me twice? if i find there is a "there" to go to, he's going to have some explaining to do. i am certain enough of this to have bet my "soul" on it.

when i say "you" im talking plural "you" as in religious public at large. put yourself in the sights of the statement if you think its pointed at you.

if the creator of the universe really is the petty, trivial, mean, backbiting immature impulsive twisted short sighted easily addressed constantly interfering domineering intolerant primitive simpleminded unimaginative brutal cruel psychopath the writers of the bible were "inspired by god" to depict, there isnt enough room in the cosmos for the two of us. one of us has got to go. it aint gonna be me.

[jraf 0]

Please read the text servrd originally and the unpretentious report you gave us about your friend. Compare. Think.

I still claim that the first text was a bunch of Hurraypatriotic Stalinist style propaganda. The only phrase it lacked was "the shining path of the future"

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[billvon 2,400]

> still amazes me the credence given to a ~2000 year old book compiled
> by a bunch of dopers to scare the peasants into submission.

Yep. We still pretty much worship a document created almost 200 years ago by a bunch of terrorists; we created our government based on it. Military tacticians still read a 2500 year old book written by some chinese guy. If people would just realize that it's only modern man that has the answers . . .

[Guest]

Sometimes things like this really do happen, Snopes notwithstanding. Thanks for sharing.

BTW - did anybody submit this to Snopes so they can add it to their "status - true" category?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[wmw999 2,123]

Something to think about -- having something maudlin written about your death doesn't cheapen it, any more than dying in an act of heroism makes you less dead.

Think of the maudlin prose (and yes folks, it was kinda maudlin) as a tool to have some folks think about the impact of death. What does it cost you?

No one else will ever see with your eyes. All you can do is show them what you see, not tell them what to see.

WEndy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Guest]

Quote

I did find it odd that we actually went this direction, instead of talking about our usual...guns.


mmmmm, guns...*drool*

hehehe

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

Quote

Quote

war·ri·or ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wôr-r, wr-)
n.
One who is engaged in or experienced in battle.
One who is engaged aggressively or energetically in an activity, cause, or conflict: neighborhood warriors fighting against developers

Thus, he is a fallen warrior. End of story.

Sorry, Dave, but here I must clarify a definition.

PFC Johnson was a soldier, not a warrior.

In the old days, great emphasis was placed on individual bravery and glory in combat. In Feudal Japan, this concept was carried to such extremes with Bushido, or "The Way of the Warrior", that warlords had to use death threats against Samurai to keep them from rushing out to take on the whole enemy host single-handed.

However, what was developed in ancient Greece, and later improved by the Romans was the concept of the soldier, where one individual is a part of a greater whole. This concept turned the old uncoordinated rabble of individuals fighting in single, mano e mano combat into a cohesive unit, where all support the others.

Our military has no "warriors". Each and every one of them, even those who fly solo in jets, are a part of the larger force.

One of the things I was very pleased to see about this latest action was how the forces aren't being driven by the ridiculous inter-service rivalries and silly glory-hogging that sometimes caused so much wasted effort (and utter disaster, in the case of "Desert One" [Operation Eagle Claw] in April 1980).

PFC Johnson died because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. However, that does nothing to diminish his courage and sacrifice. If anything, it serves to show that in war, there are no "safe" places. I hope he died well, and took some of Saddam's goons with him if he had the chance.

And perhaps one day, just maybe, the people of Iraq will remember him as a liberator, and not as a conqueror, because he was a soldier, not a warrior.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[mnischalke 0]

Sorry Jraf, just when you say things like

Quote

Oh what a pile of Hurraypariotic crap. So he is dead. Risk of the job I suppose.

and

Quote

The kid is dead, the reason why he died is not clear to me. He was not a warrior he was a soldier. He died doing his job - sad fact of life.

as well as

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Am I cynical? As hell, and feel good about it. And I don't expect to be mourned after I buy it. Use the usable organs and dump the rest of me into a swamp so the gators can have some lunch.

or this

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I care about all this as much as the fine Generals of our armed forces do. It's all a statistic. I don't care about statistics. Why should I care more than our leaders?

then

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And to add wood to your fire - I generally don't care.

I tend to believe you at face value.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.