"You're Going to Get Bored Within 100 Jumps"

[NWFlyer 2]

I see this phrase (or a variation thereof) on dropzone.com almost every time there's a question from a new jumper on how to make the right choices in purchasing the first set of gear. I've heard it countless times in real life.

Are we creating a self-fulfilling prophecy? A situation whereby new jumpers now believe that once they've done the initial downsize out of the student boat range, they *must* downsize again within a relatively short time period?

Are we creating a culture in which not downsizing is somehow "wrong"? Or where downsizing is not just an option, but an expectation? Are we planting a seed when we say "You'll get bored"?

It's just sort of interesting to me that this statement is so very accepted within the community at the same time that we fight to keep 100-jump wonders off of highly-loaded, higher-performance canopies. At the same time, we've given them full license to say "I'm bored."

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[JohnMitchell 14]

Interesting post, Krisanne. How you can get bored jumping out of a plane, I don't know. But I think you may be on to something with the rapid downsizing. Being a guy, I think a lot of it is the testosterone fueled need to go faster and take more chances and be cool. I've been there.

[billvon 2,475]

>A situation whereby new jumpers now believe that once they've done
> the initial downsize out of the student boat range, they *must* downsize
> again within a relatively short time period?

Well, that's not the only reason that I steer people towards cheaper used gear. Other reasons are:

1) They are likely going to fall down a lot, and it's less painful to tear up a $400 Vector II than a $2000 Mirage G4.

2) Even if they don't downsize they are likely to change canopies a few times before they find one they like. Perhaps they got a Spectre, but then realize that a Silhouette of similar size is a lot easier to pack.

3) The gear they jump may change due to their choice of activity. Not all rigs are freefly/wingsuit/CRW friendly.

Also, keep in mind that they may be getting their own gear before they are out of the "boat" range, since many smaller drop zones do not have gear rental programs (or indeed even much variety in student rigs.) There is indeed something of a stigma associated with big canopies; observe how you yourself refer to them as "boats." It may make more sense to get an older, larger (and usually cheaper) rig to hold the 'boat' rather than getting a custom, more expensive smaller container that the canopy needs to be stuffed into.

[Derekbox 0]

I think the trend exsisted before the observation was made... Unless the egg came first.

[NWFlyer 2]

And all of those are valid points, Bill...but not really my point. My argument really wasn't related to the many valid reasons unrelated to canopy size to buy used gear for the first rig. The point was that we tell people they will get bored. We tell people they will want to downsize. We set that expectation.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[d123 1]

I understand your point.

I've been advice to look for a 190. I ended up with a 230 but I was looking for a 260. My wind limit is 16mph (forced by self experience) while some friends go up to 22mph with a 190 with same jump numbers and almost same weight. I've went against my instructors recommendations and I have no regrets.

But that's only me. I'm the only guy from my DZ that got his 1st wing with that smaller WL. Natural skills and confidence levels are different from person to person. Generalization and black & white rules are not helping. For instance if the DZ is small and it's located right in the wind corridor (stable high winds) I can understand flying a higher WL and it might be safer than a 0.6 WL.

Anyway, I do understand your point.

Happy Landings,
Jean-Arthur Deda.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[2shay 0]

my guess is that when they do get bored they should set new goals with that canopy. I am not an example and i downsized quickly, but with no problems and many compliments from veterans. I still say go by the numbers in all cases event though I did not listen

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

I hit the sport pretty hard in the beginning and in fact, I moved to Florida to jump year round a few years ago. I thought I would be the happiest jumper to get to jump year round, but it burned me out around 200 jumps. It took trying a new discipline such as Wingsuit flying and CRW to rejuvenate my excitement for the sport. Those are still the two disciplines that keep my interest sparked.

_________________________________________

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Quote

Are we creating a self-fulfilling prophecy? A situation whereby new jumpers now believe that once they've done the initial downsize out of the student boat range, they *must* downsize again within a relatively short time period?

It's hard to say if we create that situation or not, although I see your point. In my observation, the people who are not interetsed in downsizing beyond their first purchase seem to be conservative and self-thinking enough to ignore the "you must downsize" mantra.

The one area where I really do agree with you is smaller people. You'll see a 110-lb girl looking to buy her first canopy, and she's perfectly happy with a 190 spectre and not interested in downsizing, maybe because she's not a speed freak and isn't a natural canopy pilot either. And then 10 people all tell her it's waaaay too big of a canopy and she shouldn't waste her money on a 190 loaded 0.7:1 when she'll be bored in 50 jumps, and instead she should buy a 150 or 135. Then they say that she can borrow a 190 for a few weeks, then a 170 for a few weeks, ect before jumping her new 135... of course that never happens.

Then again, I'm not one to talk. I bought a Sabre 135 (W/L 1.1:1) at 100 jumps after only 50-ish on a PD-170. Never had any problems, but canopy piloting came to me easier than most, and my DZ had a million huge fields as outs, so I was never forced to land in someone's back yard.

Quote

How you can get bored jumping out of a plane, I don't know.

Depends on one's personality I guess... for me it's easy. Don't get me wrong I love skydiving, but I need constant challenges and goals, or I get bored quickly. In 05 and 06 when I was training for 4-way I was NEVER bored. This year I don't have that, and it's been a struggle. I've started organizing, and that's been fun, but I almost never get to challenge my flying skills. I got my AFF rating, and that is definately a challenge, but it still lacks a long-term goal. I was bored as hell at the eloy christmas boogie because most dives required very little skill, and I didn't have the connections to get in on the good dives (though I definately had the ability).

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[billvon 2,475]

> We tell people they will want to downsize.

True, and I do that too. To me, it's important to get to the point where a flare will stop your descent completely _and_ where you will get a decent amount of drive. There are exceptions, of course (someone with an orthopedic problem for example) but I think for most people there's a minimum and maximum wing loading they should be jumping. Once they're within that range, then it's up to them.

But I see your point, in that a lot of experienced jumpers want to get someone to a specific wingloading because that's what they did and it worked for them - or because they think that's the ideal wingloading based on their own experiences.

[darwin143 0]

Quote

I think the trend exsisted before the observation was made... Unless the egg came first.

Agreed...but I still think what other, more experienced skydivers say to a newbie about to buy his first gear can have a major effect on their canopy size. It may be true that the person will "get bored" after X jumps, but the individual's skill and experience level may not be taken into consideration when they are given advice.

For me, personally, I get told all the time: "That canopy is too big for you" or "You'd be fine on a 135," even though I haven't reached the skill or experience to downsize yet. However, I'm also told by numerous other people (who I tend to trust and listen to more often) that I should wait until I am actually ready to downsize, not do it because I can. I only listen to the advice given by those that know my canopy skills (or lack thereof )

[Derekbox 0]

Or lack there of. Nice.

But you did have a big improvement when you went from the 170 to the 150 which you did not anticipate but were more than happy to discover. Some times there is also a bigger picture. Might not always be in the favor of the jumper though.

[darwin143 0]

That is true - and I agree with taking the advice (or at least considering it strongly) of experienced jumpers/instructors that are aware of the person's skills and situation. I just don't agree with giving "blanket" advice to newer jumpers, just because it may have worked for them or their friends.

And yes, it's nice to actually be able to fully flare the 150, even if it doesn't always happen

[Derekbox 0]

Its ok, we have plenty of ditches to catch you.

[peek 20]

Quote

Are we creating a culture in which not downsizing is somehow "wrong"? Or where downsizing is not just an option, but an expectation? Are we planting a seed when we say "You'll get bored"?

Yes, yes, and yes. And most often I hear this advice given by experienced jumpers who don't know the person to whom they are giving the advice. Don't know their skill level, don't know if they are nervous jumping their current canopy, don't know if they are conservative or not, etc. It's pitiful.

Good observation.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...Are we creating a culture in which not downsizing is somehow "wrong"? Or where downsizing is not just an option, but an expectation? Are we planting a seed when we say "You'll get bored"?

IMHO, the culture has already been created and we are now fighting to restore sanity to downsizing.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[chrismgtis 0]

I'll quit. Sure.

When I have a really really really bad landing.

Will I get bored first? Hell no.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[frazeebd 0]

As a new jumper and a new addition to the forum boards, it makes me happy to see topics like this come up. I have a whopping grand total of 16 jumps at the moment, and I'm currently on a Nav 240 at 5'11 & 185 lbs.

I think the original concern about people convincing new skydivers that they will "get bored" and that they won't fit in unless they are flying a bath towel is valid in that it does exist, but is perhaps a bit exaggerated and misdirected.

These novice skydivers, like myself, are all fully capable adults... and like many sports or activities, there are some people who are prone to be risk takers and some who will opt for a cautious approach. To lay blame at the feet of anyone but the person flying the canopy is a mistake...
I think that if you wish to address an issue such as under-experienced canopy pilots having landing problems/injuries, then address it as simple responsibility and accountability. If a fellow novice plows into someone on a landing run, he can talk all day about how he was "peer pressured" into flying a small canopy, but ultimately he is going to be held solely responsible for that decision.
Some people will ALWAYS brag, and hand out their own brand of advice to new skydivers. To try to combat this would be like pulling teeth (very deeply rooted ones)... in my opinion, the focus should instead be on promoting responsibility and accountability to the new skydivers, in hopes that the idea of making educated, intelligent decisions prevails over a desire to impress people and fit in.
Thank you for you're time.

[billvon 2,475]

>When I have a really really really bad landing.

Problem is some people only have one of those.

The paradigm of "downsize until you get hurt, then stick with that size" has become pretty prevalent lately.

[ElJosh 0]

I think that it is inevitable. Skydivers are a different breed of people. It takes a certain kind of crazy to jump out of a plane. No matter how you look at it at one point in time there was a pure rush of doing a static line and or a hop-n-pop. The “system” is setup to gradually push students to the next level and many of us went to the next step with lots of doubt about being able to pass the next task at hand. I have been on a couple boring jumps and I have very low jump numbers. I have to set a goal on each jump. Maybe something that I haven’t done or something that is more complicated. Making a smaller target to aim for, flying relative to another canopy, trying to out track another jumper in a tracking dive. Lucky for me I am a lousy jumper so I foresee many jumps before I get too bored with it, but I see the point about fast downsizing. Most jumpers at my DZ have the attitude that guys that are downsizing quickly are compensating for a lack of penile size. With that said I made a huge jump in canopy size when I bought my own gear. I went from a 220 then 1 jump on a 190, then I bought my 160. I am happy with that and don’t think that I’ll be going any smaller for a long time.

~El Josh AKA Ruby
ps: I am also a sit flying god...so I have no need to do any more of that

DS #149
Yes I only have 3 jumps...it's the magic number dude.

[faulknerwn 37]

Its not inevitable. We have a bunch of new rookie jumpers at our dz. One of them recently bought a larger F111 canopy loaded at ~.9. He likes it, he flies it well, and lands it well..

One of our other rookies made a comment today (one who just recently bought a Pilot loaded at ~ 1.0) that he bought a canopy way too big for him. I immediately corrected him - that's bullshit - he likes it, he flies and lands it well, its not too big. There's no hurry to go fast and tiny. The conservative kid is much more likely to go longer without any injury than the ones on the new faster canopies..

I do think its up to experienced jumpers to fight this trend among rookies... Too big is better than too small for a first canopy.

[2fat2fly 0]

I tell people to do what I did-buy 1.0 and eat your way to 1.3

I am not the man. But the man knows my name...and he's worried

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

I tell people to do what I did-buy 1.0 and eat your way to 1.3

I'm dieting my way to 1.0 again, Right now I'm 1.3 on my Stiletto 150. I'm old school again.

[chrismgtis 0]

Quote

>When I have a really really really bad landing.

Problem is some people only have one of those.

The paradigm of "downsize until you get hurt, then stick with that size" has become pretty prevalent lately.

No worries billvon. I'm jumping and comfortable with my 175 triathlon and sticking with it for a long time. I'm no master under a 175, so I have no business downsizing. Especially with 81 jumps.
I'm loaded at about 1.12.

I've gained about 6 lbs in the last few months. My girlfriend is killing me. She wants McDonalds all the time. I eat out all the time, because she is a PITA and I'm having to feed her. I ate once or twice a day myself, now I find myself eating twice as much.

Women. One way to increase your wingloading.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

.....

It's just sort of interesting to me that this statement is so very accepted within the community at the same time that we fight to keep 100-jump wonders off of highly-loaded, higher-performance canopies. At the same time, we've given them full license to say "I'm bored."

No. It was no one else but myself and my glorious overestimation of my own capabilities telling me: Lord, it's becoming booooring now ;: I need to downsize! What a BS.

Thanks God, my great teacher(s) (in Germany as well as in Spain) kicked me in the a** telling me to do some workshops, flock dives, canopy control courses, etc. etc. At this point, instructors should hang in and have an eye on those tough know-it-all-jumpers.

I was that giant fool, just beginning to learn. THAT's what newbies reaching the 100s should be told.

dudeist skydiver # 3105