Jumpships down

[NWFlyer 2]

Mike, I hated reading that post, but I appreciate you making it. As much as we tried very hard to imagine all the positive scenarios in which our friends were able to get out of the plane, this is what was in the back of everyone's mind until the official word came, then it was confirmed. Reading a description like that pretty much erases all doubt about what their options might have been; of course none of us were in the back of the plane with the nine of them, but we can know in our hearts that if there were anything to be done they very likely had no opportunity to do it.

I know people have strong opinions about this issue and want to think that skydivers can always save themselves, but the reality is far from that heroic a picture, as this accident and others have made crystal clear. It feels awfully disrespectful and judgmental to me for anyone to imply or suggest that somehow the occupants of this particular plane made some sort of mistake or fell victim to some sort of hubris that could have saved their lives. We won't know for a long time what mistakes were made (if any) that led to this crash, but I have very strong doubts that once those skydivers made the choice to get on board, they didn't have much choice but to go to their death where they did. Maybe we'll find out differently and I'll eat my words, but right now, all signs point to giving the passengers the benefit of the doubt.

All that said, I always appreciate the opportunity to learn more about the realities of aircraft emergencies, whether it be in normal jump operations or in ferry operations like this one. It helps me to truly understand the risks I am taking and also to better remember my role and my goals if I do find myself in an emergency situation that has a bail-out opportunity. I'm not sure I could live with myself if I *were* in such a situation and I made some mistake that caused me to be able to live but in some way prevented another person from surviving.

But in this case, I can't imagine any of them having much choice, and I appreciate your response for cementing the details of the mental picture I had.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[StreetScooby 5]

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Opening the door affects the aerodynamics. People piling towards the door affects the CG. People jumping out and hitting the tail damages the plane.

Getting out without the pilot's permission may improve your odds while at the same time screwing everyone else on the plane.

A friend of mine recently relayed a King Air story from some time back. Lost the left engine just after take off. If the jump door had been opened, the plane would have gone down and everyone but first out would have died. Fortunately, the pilot told everyone to stay in their seats (and with a little help from Scooter, they did). The plane landed safely.

Moral of the story here - DO WHAT THE PILOT SAYS! If you're not comfortable doing that, don't get on the plane.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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To name a few, if you already have not heard or read about the listed crashes, you can find all the facts about each event I listed as well as many others, here

http://www.diverdriver.com/Accidents/accidents.htm


Chris has taking the time to build the website and look up the reports for everyone to learn from the past that has taken so many of our friends over the years. You owe it to yourself, so please take the time to educate youself and learn how to break the "chain of events" if we can and be ready to bail out each time you board the AC.

This is a tremendous site. Many thanks to the person who put it together.

We are all engines of karma

[JohnRich 4]

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C-205 Celina Oh. rookie pilot... the flight ran out of fuel on T.O. The pilots job was made harder by the 3 who got out by incressing drag and putting more aft CG into a AC that was already heavy in the aft CG.

If a plane is overloaded, that means that a lot of people are crammed in back, which contributes to an aft CG imbalance.

Therefore, when people exit from the back in an emergency in these circumstances, shouldn't that help eliminate the overloading, as well as shift the CG forward to where it should be?

In other words, couldn't jumpers exiting actually improve the situation, rather than making it worse?

[stratostar 5]

C-205 the door is in the front like a 182.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[marks2065 0]

the problem is if the plane is going to stall the last thing you want is everybody in the plane running for the back door - take 20 people in an otter all sitting in the plane with the heavy guys buy the door and you are about 2000 feet in a clime and one engine fails - even if the cg is aft the pilot still has a chance but if all 20 people head to the door to get out the weight of the front people goes aft and causes the stall to get worse by making the nose lighter - if the pilot says to get out you get out one at atime and the people near the pilot don't move to the back until it is their turn - it is always beter to have the tail get lighter than heavier - as long as the pilot can keep the nose down you have a chance once the nose goes up with no power it is all over and the plane will stall

[NickDG 23]

I'm supposing not too many here would be familiar with Bungee's accident or Cowboy's Caravan crash as it was so long ago now. I too remember Bungee leaving Perris after that Turkey meet and how we heard some hours later that he didn't make it home. I'd come to the conclusion Turkey meets were cursed as for a period of time it seemed something always happened at them.

I wrote an article about Cowboy's Caravan crash sometime after it happened and over the years have kept my ears open for any further developments.

We know that in 1985 a Cessna Caravan owned by Dave "Cowboy" Williams crashed shortly after take off from the Westwind DZ near Atlanta, GA due to fuel contamination. This was the first Caravan used for skydiving operations and it was purchased not long after Cessna first introduced them. The aircraft was making the rounds of various DZs in the South and on this particular load Dave wasn't flying the plane, but he was in the back and jumping. All sixteen aboard were killed.

Cowboy's father wrote a book about the incident but even before that the rumors were flying around about cocaine and drug deals gone wrong.

Two weeks prior to the crash Andrew Thornton was found dead in the front yard of a Doctor's house after a botched night jump in Florida. He was dressed all in black, with night vision equipment and several weapons attached to his body. He was also carrying 70 pounds of pure uncut cocaine. No pilot or airplane was ever connected to the incident. This was straight out of "Miami Vice" except it was four years before that TV show premiered.

A federal investigation found a link between Andrew Thornton and another man named Dave Williams. But other than the fact they were both skydivers and "friends" that was as far as it went.

While the feds were stymied it wasn't too hard for skydivers to start putting events together. Andrew and Dave were partners in a drug running business and rather than go through the dangerous phase of landing a drug laden aircraft at a U.S. airport they used their skydiving skills to eliminate that part of the operation.

This also explains were Dave Williams got the money to buy, what in today's money, is a 2 million dollar aircraft.

Here's what I think happened the night Andrew Thornton died. I believe Dave was also in the aircraft and was doing the flying. They had acquired a single engine plane (or most likely stole it) to make the flight from probably somewhere in the southwest U.S. into Florida. Over their drop point they set the auto pilot so the aircraft would continue out over the Atlantic Ocean, run out of fuel, and disappear forever. Then they both jumped and Dave landed successfully and Andrew went in for some reasons unknown. I've never seen a rigger's report on the state of his gear.

Dave may have been carrying another 70 pounds of cocaine, or maybe not. But he probably beat it out of area as fast as possible. What we don't know is was this the first time they did this, or was it the twentieth? I'd guess it was more the latter.

Two weeks later Dave's Caravan crashed and the rumors of sabotage, as someone was out the money for the cocaine, ran rampant. But I've come to the conclusion the crash probably wasn't the result of sabotage as it doesn't fit the MO. If this was retaliation for the drug deal gone wrong someone would have just walked up to Dave (Cowboy) Williams and blew his head off. Fouling a fuel tank is just too iffy a way to try and kill someone.

The case got cold over the years until I was at a PIA Convention in Orlando, Florida in the early nineties. I was talking about the Caravan incident with a very intoxicated and well known equipment manufacture who let slip some things he probably shouldn’t have told me. (If I wind up with bullet in my head, you know where to start looking). I won’t ever repeat it as it may have been drunk talk, but it made sense.

All through the late 1970s there was no big secret that when a DC-3 or a Twin Beech landed at your DZ while you were sleeping in a tent at three in the morning, you just kept your head down, as there was surely something funny going on . . .

NickD BASE 194

[lauraliscious 0]

Wow, what an interesting story, thanks for sharing!

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[WGore 0]

Nick,
Drew was found in a driveway in Knoxville, not FL. The airplane that they were flying was a 402. That airplane is notorious for horizontal sabilizer strikes when used for skydiving.
My take on the whole incident was that the auto pilot was set to fly east and then Drew headed to the back of the aircraft. The shift in weight put the plane in a tail down attitude and when Thornton exited he was struck by the horizontal stabilizer. The cause of death was that his aorta was ripped from his heart. Apparently he was consious just long enough to pull his reserve. He was found with the reserve laying next to his body but the deployment brakes hadn't been released. The aircraft was found near the top of a mountain in the Smokies by a couple coon hunters who supposedly heard it hit. There was no one in the aircraft and it was traced back to a phony corp that bought it and never transferred the title. I don't remember where I heard this and it is not gospel but the key to the rear door was supposedly in Thornton's pocket.
I think that DEA was looking pretty close at Dave Williams but the Caravan crash sort of took care of that problem. DEA might have been resonsible for the rumors about sabotage to try and shake loose some info.
That crash took out most of the best jumpers along with the DZO and Cowboy from that DZ.

GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

[NickDG 23]

Thanks, I was going from memory and screwed that part up. Interesting take on the 402 though . . .

NickD BASE 194

[paulcrw 0]

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What you fail to grasp in your original post, that I called you on is the forces at play in a rapid descent that maybe spining or producing high G forces.

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Maybe we should leave our packs on when travelling cross-country, even if loosely.

I invite you to find a pilot willing to take you up and let you try to tighten up your rig and open the door or doors while under a rapid high G descent, once your done with that do it again this time add in a spin, let us know how well it gose and get video too.

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Sad to think that all could have been saved by wearing their chutes.

This statement is what I'm calling bullshit on, and again you fail to grasp the reality of the forces at play in a out of control aircraft.

How did the pilot in this crash: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=225 get out of a Caravan with no tail spinning to the ground, door down?

Never say die, I say.

[lauraliscious 0]

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How did the pilot in this crash: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=225 get out of a Caravan with no tail spinning to the ground, door down?

Never say die, I say.

Wow, just wow.

Edited to add: I was so impressed with this, that I looked up the accident report.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2001/AAIR/aair200101903.aspx

If you care to download and read the .pdf file, it's really interesting.

Just goes to show that getting out of an unstable aircraft is NOT impossible. I agree with paulcrw, never say die! What an inspiration.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[stratostar 5]

I never said it was impossible to do, did I! Once again if you really want to know then hire you a plane & pilot and go find out first hand.

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"As I hit the floor, I heard the door go 'bang', the sound it makes when it's dropped . . . I couldn't even raise my arm up and I was trying to push forward using my legs but then my boot got stuck, my right foot, stuck in the seat belt."

Losing his new boot, Dawson hauled himself along the floor as if he was trying to climb a wall while glued to it, using the harness seatbelts as a hand grip. The plane was tilting about 45 degrees, then it would go vertical, then flatten out, then tilt again. "The G-forces would come on hard sometimes, and it was like when you're in a dream and you want to move and you can't lift your arm and I was just hanging off the harness belts until the Gs eased enough for me to lunge a little more toward the door."

Reaching the door, with one hand on a harness for support, Dawson found he couldn't raise the roller door more than a few centimetres with only one hand. He needed two hands for a clean lift. Desperately, he thought of throwing his canopy out of the crack. "That way I'd have been dragged out, but I probably wouldn't have survived it."

It was at this point, exhausted and frustrated, unable to see a way out, he thought of his daughter Crystal, only eight weeks old. "And I thought, 'There's no way I'm leaving my baby', and I just went sick."

Suddenly, he found he could get his arm out to the crook of the elbow, giving him better purchase on the door. When he had worked it up to his shoulder, he turned over on to his back and squeezed his head out. The plane was still spinning, falling, gaining speed. He was giving birth to himself, pushing himself out. When he got so the door was on his waist, Dawson had a look around to see which way was up and gave a final heave. As he slipped out (at about 1000 feet, says the ATSB report) and rolled over, he saw the plane hit the ground and burst into flames. By the time he pulled the ripcord, he was at about 600 feet, a second and a half from death.

At least this guy didn't have 10 or 12 other bodies stuck to the walls and also trying to crawl out too. If you look at the number of events of loaded AC's going down like this the number of people able to get out is VERY VERY low, while the body count for those stuck inside is VERY VERY high, and that is a fact.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NickDG 23]

Just tagging on a photograph of Cowboy . . .

NickD BASE 194

[brianfry713 0]

FAR Sec. 91.211 Supplemental oxygen

(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry--

(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

(2) At cabin pressure altitudes above 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen during the entire flight time at those altitudes; and

(3) At cabin pressure altitudes above 15,000 feet (MSL) unless each occupant of the aircraft is provided with supplemental oxygen.


FAR Sec. 91.107 Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator--

(1) No pilot may take off a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola, or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) unless the pilot in command of that aircraft ensures that each person on board is briefed on how to fasten and unfasten that person's safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness.

(2) No pilot may cause to be moved on the surface, take off, or land a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola, or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) unless the pilot in command of that aircraft ensures that each person on board has been notified to fasten his or her safety belt and, if installed, his or her shoulder harness.

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing. For seaplane and float equipped rotorcraft operations during movement on the surface, the person pushing off the seaplane or rotorcraft from the dock and the person mooring the seaplane or rotorcraft at the dock are excepted from the preceding seating and safety belt requirements. Notwithstanding the preceding requirements of this paragraph, a person may:

(i) Be held by an adult who is occupying an approved seat or berth, provided that the person being held has not reached his or her second birthday and does not occupy or use any restraining device;

(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting;


I read in one of these threads that they had normal seats on board. I'm sure the FAA and NTSB will investigate and let us know.

I'm wondering if anyone who says here that they would've been wearing their rig in this case always wears their rig when traveling by air. Do you wear it when flying around for fun in a normal GA airplane? On a mid-size plane? On an airliner? Do you always?

[rygon 0]

the way i see it (being a newbie and all) is like a funfair ride...everything is nice and easy when you not moving but as soon as you are being pushed up down left and right its hard to tel exactly where you are...im sure most ppl in that situation wouldnt even try to get themselves near the door to open let alone jump out...that sort of situation ppl are going to be fearfull and the human brain will want to into fight or flight mode...that sort of thing will 90% of the time (im guessing) put you into flight mode...yet you have nowhere to go so you curl up and hope for the best (seeing that the Gs are keeping you there)

ITs really like losing control of you car then trying to bale out..not only have you the guts to jump out without knowing where you are going to land but the physical strength to do it

[bob.dino 0]

Baz is a tough bastard. He only started wearing a pilot rig a week or so before this incident.

[hongkongluna 0]

Looks like a bear suffered the fallout of that incident with Drew...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,960158-1,00.html

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[stratostar 5]

See I wasn't just making shit up...

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Federal agents are also checking a link between Thornton and David Lee Williams, 35, of Atlanta, who died with 15 other sky divers two weeks ago when his plane stalled and plunged to the ground in rural Jenkinsburg, Ga. The plane's wing tanks were spiked with sugar, indicating sabotage. Thornton and Williams knew each other, and authorities speculate that they skimmed a cocaine shipment from Colombian drug suppliers.

Link:http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,960158-1,00.html

Thanks for looking that up hongkongluna.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[diverdriver 5]

And the fuel contamination from water (regular rain water) in those 55 gallon drums that were pumped into the aircraft were just "background noise" in the investigation?

[stratostar 5]

IDK about all that, but I do know that it wouldn't be the first plane messed up (sabotage), in Hawaii we had a c-170 for jump op's and we used it for spotting fish and using radio to tell the boat where to drop the nets, well one day the 170 was burnt to the ground, no more fish spotting.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[hongkongluna 0]

Forgot to paste the link about the poor bear...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E4DA123BF930A15751C1A963948260&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[Krip 2]

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Forgot to paste the link about the poor bear...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E4DA123BF930A15751C1A963948260&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

IMO it would have been a Poor bear if he got crushed by the load that fell out of the sky

That bear was very lucky to find the stuff and probably was set up by Goldilocks who made off with most of the loot after the bear OD with a smile on his face.















that was a happy bear

[WGore 0]

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And the fuel contamination from water (regular rain water) in those 55 gallon drums that were pumped into the aircraft were just "background noise" in the investigation?

I still think that the sugar in the fuel was a ploy to shake some info from local skydivers that lost good friends in the crash. I don't think that the NTSB would have failed to mention a small fact like that. And it's not like the news media doesn't go with sensationalism right or not. They can always make retractions on page 105 of the next edition if necessary.
Williams wasn't hard to find if revenge was the order of the day. Why take a chance on that method not working when a bullet would be certain and final.
Thornton was caught bringing a plane full of drugs into CA. While he was out on bail awaiting trial he was shot exiting a Lexington restaurant. Drew NEVER went out without a kevlar vest and everyone knew it. The shooter hit him in the chest from less than 10 ft not the head. The theory was to remind him not to roll over on his friends. He didn't and did 6 months or so in the Federal Country Club because it was a first offense. Also he was not disbarred by the KY Bar Asso. When I asked him about that all he said was the fix was in. BTW when he started jumping he was a Lexington PD Narcotics officer. I guess it was more profitable to work both sides of the street.
There is a book called The Bluegrass Mafia, which I haven't read, but his name comes up in there as a player. I'm not so sure that there was ever a Columbian connection other than the coke coming from there. As far as I know DEA never came up with anything else in this case. Charges were filed against his GF but were dismissed by a Federal Judge. I don't think that she knew anything useful. Drew didn't trust anybody very much.

GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

[bclark 0]

The book about Drew Thornton is called "The Bluegrass Conspiracy", by Sally Denton. It is a great read, and at the end does touch on the crash of Cowboy's Caravan. I know a bit off topic, but if you like skydiving, true crime, etc...