Bowling For Columbine

[goose491 0]

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Well maybe we got a bit off topic here. But this still goes to show how Michael Moore SUCKS.

Does it? To be honnest, all it tells me is how a large cross-section of Americans just cannot accept some critisisme without attacking.

let's just look at the chronology of my contributions to this thread and the lovely, intillectual responses it generated.

1) I chime in saying that though Moore used some creative editing to make his movie (specifically designed to anger people), that the most important points he tries to make in "Bowling for Columbine" are real, factual and need to be addressed.

2) Turtlespeed beleives a proper response to this is to poke fun at democrats?

3) I had mentioned that over 11 thousand people die to the Gun in America every year (Compared to other countries, this is CRAZY!).... Storm agrees, adding that people die from the Flu and from Driving... This was news to me. Wait a tic!, that wasn't news to me... that was sarcasm!

4) Here comes one of my favorite parts. I say it was insensitive for the NRA to hold a gun-rights rally right in the vicinity and only days after the columbine shooting even though the rally was pre-planned (and I certainly didn't imply that the NRA was responsible for the shooting)... Well here comes JohnRich with some clever editing of his own. Cuts out the 'pre-planned' part of my post so that he can tell me that the rally was pre-planned... he also feels I should be informed that the shooting was not NRA's fault.

5) Storm is still off comparing Apples to Oranges and comes back in with a real dooozey. "Hey goose, while we're at it, we will ban.... (this that and the other thing)"

It would seem as though, nobody wants to discuss what I have to say with any level of maturity or respect. Guess I should have just left this thread as a Michel Moore Bashing one.

Carry on all.

I was going to ask what everyone thought about Marylin Mansons thoughts on the matter. Remember that part?

When people are scared, they buy things.
Keep the people scared, and they keep buying things.

If we can keep the sarcastic and insulting responses to a minimum, I'd really like to know what you guys think of that!... 'cause it seems pretty smart to me.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[meltdown 0]

Here's that link I was looking for. This is your "everyman" in person. Anyone know how to make this clicky?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74883,00.html

[goose491 0]

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Here's that link I was looking for. This is your "everyman" in person. Anyone know how to make this clicky?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74883,00.html

HereYou Go

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[turtlespeed 212]

Yeah, when I get scared, I buy duct tape.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[goose491 0]

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Yeah, when I get scared, I buy duct tape.

I'll repeat:

If we can keep the sarcastic and insulting responses to a minimum, I'd really like to know what you guys think of that!... 'cause it seems pretty smart to me.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[storm1977 0]

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Think before you speak/type

I did think, and I will say the same thing...Don't BE Stupid
Now if you think that is a personal attack then again i will say... Don't be stupid.

But, if you can't actually tell the difference between a recomendation and an attack then maybe you can't help being stupid.

Now, as far as the post goes... You wrote:

Gun deaths=Murder

So what? So do Knife deaths etc... What are you getting at? You don't like it here... too many people shooting eachother??? Don't Visit.

I am a bit confused your odds at being shot and killed in the USA are about 1 in 27,000 but your odds
at dying in a car wreck are about 1 in 7000.

I think we have a far bigger social problem with driving than we do with shooting don't you.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[goose491 0]

It's fine and dandy that this parent of victims says the shooting was not the NRAs fault.

So Did I if you cared to have read what I said.

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It's now obvious to me you know nothing about what you're talking about. Admittedly, I don't know much about the KKK, but I assume it was not created in 1871...

Nope. KKK was outlawed in 1871.

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Furthermore, I would also assume it to be against the interest of the KKK for the NRA to be the major player with the NAACP in the overthrow of the "Black Codes" which prevented former slaves, their descendants and other blacks from owning firearms.

You give me the NRA fact sheets to prove what? The history of Black getting the rights to bear arms is in there point by point... I don't see however, where it says that the NRA was a -nay "the"- major player.

Whatever man, NRA aside a moment, the fact reamains that "gun control" does not mean the same for blacks as it does for whites. See Here?

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[turtlespeed 212]

Whatever man, NRA aside a moment, the fact reamains that "gun control" does not mean the same for blacks as it does for whites. See Here?

Why are we getting racial in this - you know, Rush Limbah was critisized and fired for making such a comment.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[TheAnvil 0]

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When people are scared, they buy things.
Keep the people scared, and they keep buying things.

It is a good observation in some respects, but certainly not for gun control. A certain segment of the population here in the United States is scared and angry. They are angry because they are neither wealthy nor successful and scared to face the reasons why - laziness, lack of hard work in school, failure to meet standards, etc. Therefore thy buy into the 'racism/sexism keeps you down' and 'you won't get anywhere without government programs to assist you' garbage spewed by the left. Always easier to blame someone other than yourself than face the facts of life.

The left works hard to keep them scared, so they buy into such garbage year after year after year.

Face the facts dude - Mike Moore lied his ass off all throughout his documentary[sic]. Kleck has done some serious studies of gun control issues - check out his well documented work and see what you think. This racial bullshit related to gun control just doesn't hold water at all - and I read the article you posted concerning race and the gun control 'issue'; the person who wrote it needs a reality check.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Let's have at it then:

Knives - can be used to cut rope or whittle useful objects out of wood, etc.
Axes - primarily designed for chopping wood
Bows - designed for killing, but are rather slow and inefficient
Chipper Shreaders - designed for chipping and shredding wood
Lawn Movers[sic] - designed to trim grass
Ropes (strangling) - designed to tie things together
Any type of Saw - used for cutting wood
Baseball bats - designed as sports equipment
Golf Clubs - see above
Hammers - for driving nails, etc.
Rocks - not created by humans, but by nature
Tall objects - housing people, businesses, etc.
Steel toed boots - protecting a worker's foot from damage
Hands and fists - they came with the package
Guns? - designed to kill

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and anything else that has been used as a murder weapon.

With the exception of bows, I can't find another object on your list (or Turtlespeed's) whose sole purpose for existing is to kill. It's not an issue of whether an item can be used for murder, but it is an issue of whether it is specifically designed for that purpose.

Oh, and as for this:

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Don't be stupid...

This is really unnecessary. Whenever one attacks the arguer and not the argument, the attacker ends up looking desperate - not a quality you want affecting your rhetoric.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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The left works hard to keep them scared, so they buy into such garbage year after year after year.

Well, the American public is certainly being kept scared of terrorism right now, but I'm pretty sure it's not the left working hard to do that.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[TheAnvil 0]

You're absolutely correct. They are scared of terrorism due to a myriad of reasons, including but not limited to: the anthrax release in the capitol, Pentagon/WTC attacks, bioweapons scares, the Lackawanna cell, the plan to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge, Russian nukes missing, etc.

I can say without hesitation that none of the Naive Nine were directly involved with any of the aforementioned.

Now, refute my previous post if you can. I stand by its veracity.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Kramer 0]

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Let's have at it then:

Knives - can be used to cut rope or whittle useful objects out of wood, etc.
Axes - primarily designed for chopping wood
Bows - designed for killing, but are rather slow and inefficient
Chipper Shreaders - designed for chipping and shredding wood
Lawn Movers[sic] - designed to trim grass
Ropes (strangling) - designed to tie things together
Any type of Saw - used for cutting wood
Baseball bats - designed as sports equipment
Golf Clubs - see above
Hammers - for driving nails, etc.
Rocks - not created by humans, but by nature
Tall objects - housing people, businesses, etc.
Steel toed boots - protecting a worker's foot from damage
Hands and fists - they came with the package
Guns? - designed to kill

He's right, you know.

What do we really need hand-guns for? I think it's funny that all these guys who say they have a ".44 magnum" because they like to hunt, etc. What the hell type of animal are you going to kill with a .44 magnum? A human...that's what kind.

I would never for a second suggest taking away shotguns, rifles, and other guns designated for hunting.

But honestly, what does someone need a hand-gun for? Give me one reason someone needs a hand-gun...

And don't just say "to protect themselves". That's bullshit.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[adamT 0]

Hobby, People like to collect guns. We don't need rare postage stamps or classic cars or baseball cards or any of the thousands of other useless things people collect.

[TheAnvil 0]

I beg to differ. Protection is not a bullshyte answer. Several of my friends who are women who live in cities have handguns and concealed carry permits. Smaller folk need handguns for protection against larger hooligans on occasion - not just gun toting hooligans either.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kelpdiver 2]

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Guns? - designed to kill

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But honestly, what does someone need a hand-gun for? Give me one reason someone needs a hand-gun...

And don't just say "to protect themselves". That's bullshit.

-Kramer

Two nice strawmen. It's much easier to argument with yourself than with us, isn't it?

[Jimbo 0]

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Good points I'd say...
I've found a site that backs up your side pretty well.

That site is a croc! lol, you can't debunk someones arguments by picking apart his/her editing. "Oh, he put two ads together! That wasn't just one add!".... hehe. Was Willie Horton not realeased to commit more crime? "Oh! It says 'Willie Horton released. Then kills again.' when in actuality, all he did was assault and rape!"... Is that an argument against Bowling for Columbine? Really? Makes me laugh.

They take another shot at Moore saying that he's stupid for thinking the NRA went to Columbine intentionally after the shootings when in fact, it was planned ahead of time. Well, for those of you who haven't seen the documentary. That is what is suggested, but only until it is actually brought up (by Heston) that the trip was pre-planned. I'm pretty sure Moore knew that... his point, and he makes it perfectly clear when meeting with Mr. Heston, is that it's pretty DAMN insensitive to hold an NRA rally a stones throw away from and only days after some kids shot up their school! Regardless of whether or not it was already planned by the NRA and especially when the family and friends of the victims pleaded with them not to come.

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I still think it's a wonderful movie, but I'm a lot more skeptical of it's 'truths' now. Thanks man.

Well, don't be skeptical of the ones that matter. i.e. the eleven thousand plus that die to guns in the US every year. The fact that the black man is not properly represented in the American media. The fact that the US has given arms and money to known terrorists, flip flopped from one side of a battle to another to suit their own agenda. The welfare program -hehe remember that part? What a poor woman- that takes you off welfare and makes you work a job that you will never be able to quit and that will never give you enough to pay your way out of the program (has slavery really been abolished?) The fact that the NRA and KKK came about at the same time... for similar reasons.

I could go on... now tell me... Did Micheal Moore make those things up?
Granted, he's done a little 'creative editing'... but has he twisted the truth.... or simply begun untwisting it?

Good one! Thanks for the laugh!

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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Two nice strawmen. It's much easier to argument with yourself than with us, isn't it?

Remind me again: Who's "us?" Who's "them?"

Oh yeah, and if you're going to attack people for failing to argue with "us," whatever that means, you would do well to address the arguments raised yourself. Sort of a "mote in the eye, speck in the eye" thing.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[kelpdiver 2]

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Two nice strawmen. It's much easier to argument with yourself than with us, isn't it?

Remind me again: Who's "us?" Who's "them?"

Oh yeah, and if you're going to attack people for failing to argue with "us," whatever that means, you would do well to address the arguments raised yourself. Sort of a "mote in the eye, speck in the eye" thing.

Are you familiar with a strawman argument? By definition, you can't really debate against one, because the other person makes up both sides.

When one claims that guns are designed only to kill, and have no defensive value, there's really no point to continuing the conversation.

[PeteH 0]

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I've found a site that backs up your side pretty well.

From that backup site:

".4. Shooting at Buell Elementary School in Michigan. Bowling depicts the juvenile shooter who killed Kayla Rolland as a sympathetic youngster, from a struggling family, who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school. "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl."


Fact: The little boy was the class thug, already suspended from school for stabbing another kid with a pencil, and had fought with Kayla the day before. Since the incident, he has stabbed another child with a knife."

This thug was six years old, so he must have known what he was doing.
Why wasn't he fried after the first incident. Damn hippies!

[jaaska 0]

From outsiders (Non-American) perspective:

It's hilarious to see you guys debate about this gun "issue" (or the fact that many of you do not even think there is an issue) of yours.

I've seen the movie and although it was fun to watch I guess the main point was to raise these kind of debates rather than present an objective documentary (like that's even possible) - which it definitely was not.

I'm not even going to try to get to the everlasting debate of gun control / freedom.

There are some countries that have strict gun-control laws and others where it's a lot less strict. How come so many more Americans are killed (in %)by guns even if you compare to the kind of countries that have a lot of guns, too (say Canada or some European states (in%))?

I just don't buy "American socio-psychological behaviour is different"...

There are big cities with their problems in many other places, too. There is huge diversity in many other places, too. There is crime in many other places, too... etc...

Like a good American friend of mine, who is/was PRO guns/NRA etc. said: "I guess it's some sort of freedom to be able to walk around in a 'not so good hood' without carrying a gun and w/o being afraid of getting 'popped'."

just my 2 (euro) cent

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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When one claims that guns are designed only to kill, and have no defensive value, there's really no point to continuing the conversation.

I never said they have no defensive value. But just what is there defensive value? Their potential to kill.

I'm still not following your strawman argument objection. I raised my objection against someone else who attempted to prove reductio ad absurdum that it makes no sense to ban guns because all sorts of everyday objects can be used for murder and it makes no sense to ban all of those. My objection to his reasoning is that none of those objects are expressly designed to kill, thus his argument isn't valid.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[bmcd308 0]

>>My objection to his reasoning is that none of those objects are expressly designed to kill, thus his argument isn't valid.<<

Why does it matter what something was designed to do, anyway? Why not talk about what it actually does?

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[Canuck 0]

A couple points, and then I'm outta here.

1. Bowling for Columbine isn't about gun control any more than Basic Instinct is about Sharon Stone spreading her legs in the interrogation room. One part of the movie - yes, a part that many people remember - yes. But the point of the movie - NO. This is a movie that requires critical engagement and intelligent viewing. It's about the prevailing social conditions that manifest in many forms, one of which is a completely undeniable high hand gun murder rate.

2. As a Canadian, I have always been awed by the patriotism of Americans. I think it's great to have so much love and repect for your country. However, I think it's pretty important to remember that deep love and repect can provoke emotional rather than empirical responses to criticism, and sometimes it's very important to view situations objectively rather than subjectively.

Canuck

[The111 1]

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2. As a Canadian, I have always been awed by the patriotism of Americans. I think it's great to have so much love and repect for your country. However, I think it's pretty important to remember that deep love and repect can provoke emotional rather than empirical responses to criticism, and sometimes it's very important to view situations objectively rather than subjectively.

Wow. Right on.

As an American, I've always been confused by the unconditional patriotism of *most* Americans and their tendency to view situations subjectively rather than objectively. Maybe I should move to Canada.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com