Kennedy 0
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QuoteQuoteI love animals, they're delicious!
If God didn't want us to eat animals,
He wouldn't have made them out of meat!
Human animals are made of meat. You don't eat humans though, do you? No. All animals suffer pain, whether human-animals or non-human animals. If humans treated other species with a bit more respect by not eating them, maybe we could learn to treat each other a bit better
let's try this one on: how many vegans here have:
leather shoes (belt, jacket, purse, etc)?
used commercial soaps and deodorants?
use makeup?
taken pharmaceticals?
gone skiing?
skydived?????? (read on)
animals regretably suffered for these luxuries/advances. i am sorry for that, but at least you didn't suffer. i used to work for a pharmaceutical company, and as ethical as they are there, humans need to "use" animals on a regular basis. thank the next bunny you see for your loved one's cancer medication.
heck, where did all the animals go that used to be where somebody built you DZ? your housing development? i bet some animals died or were at least displaced. you are not living next to smoky the bear in a tent so you can save his home and his surrounding food source. see where an absolutist stance such as "save all animals" is a tough place to stand?
now, on the other hand, we can't kill them all, and there are very sad stories of animal torture and improper treatment in our world. very sad. i am an animal lover, though its maybe not apparent here. i respect all sides, and it is not logical to try to solely separate any dependency we have on animals. on the contrary, we need to interact with our environment ethically as all animals do and sometimes that may be at the expense of another animal (quote scripture all you want, but humans are in fact an animal - how many lions are murdering other lions for fun? i.e. snipers in the news)...
billvon 2,476
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I don't have any problems with people who eat meat, but your position doesn't make much sense.
>Still, you must also consider the ecological problems cause by
> vegetable crops. First, the runoff of agricultural wastes, including but > not limited to phosphates and other fertilizers, causes algae >blooms that kill off lakes, streams and lagoons.
So the solution is to grow six times as much (and cause six times the pollution) for pig food, then deal with the lagoons of pig waste? That's an order of magnitude worse. If you are worried about agricultural waste, a pound of beef causes ten times the problems as a pound of corn.
>Next, the insecticides also create a big problem. Know this - there
> are thousands of critters killed so I can enjoy my veggies. You, too.
> Cows or weevils, both suffer. Thus, I've demonstrated a virtual
> holocaust among the insects, worms, and fish (the algae blooms)
> caused by your dependance on plant carcasses for your nutrition.
See above. You can cause a holocaust eating broccoli, or ten holocausts eating cow.
>Ah, but what about organically grown foods? These are mainly
> frankenfoods, genetically designed to resist critter infestation.
No; most organic foods are not GMO's. They are even tested to make sure they are not. They are more expensive since the insects eat more of them before they get to you (since they don't use commercial pesticides.)
>Furthermore, there are various and sundry horrors caused by the
> harvesting of your foods. Chunks of mice, prairie dogs, and cuddly
> bunnies are sucked up by combines along with the corn and wheat.
> Great green globs of greasy grimey gopher guts are part and parcel
> to the whole grain breakfast cereals. Cutting the little mammals to
> little pieces is far worse that the conditions at Harris Ranch.
?? I don't see how cutting a rabbit to pieces is any better or worse than cutting a cow or a chicken to pieces. In both cases you kill an animal.
>The point? It's difficult to put down the horrors of animal
> domestication and slaughter when viewed in light of the other
> horrors caused by cultivation of produce.
Not a supportable statement. You might as well say that the pain of paying a 7% sales tax is the same as paying a 39% income tax. Eating meat uses roughly six to ten times the environmental resources as eating vegetables on a per calorie basis.
>If it is animal suffering and damage to the environment you seek to
> avoid, you basically have no choice other than growing your own
> vegetables without any protections at all.
Or buy those vegetables that are grown without pesticides, artificial fertilizers etc. They generate far less environmental impact.
>Still, you must also consider the ecological problems cause by
> vegetable crops. First, the runoff of agricultural wastes, including but > not limited to phosphates and other fertilizers, causes algae >blooms that kill off lakes, streams and lagoons.
So the solution is to grow six times as much (and cause six times the pollution) for pig food, then deal with the lagoons of pig waste? That's an order of magnitude worse. If you are worried about agricultural waste, a pound of beef causes ten times the problems as a pound of corn.
>Next, the insecticides also create a big problem. Know this - there
> are thousands of critters killed so I can enjoy my veggies. You, too.
> Cows or weevils, both suffer. Thus, I've demonstrated a virtual
> holocaust among the insects, worms, and fish (the algae blooms)
> caused by your dependance on plant carcasses for your nutrition.
See above. You can cause a holocaust eating broccoli, or ten holocausts eating cow.
>Ah, but what about organically grown foods? These are mainly
> frankenfoods, genetically designed to resist critter infestation.
No; most organic foods are not GMO's. They are even tested to make sure they are not. They are more expensive since the insects eat more of them before they get to you (since they don't use commercial pesticides.)
>Furthermore, there are various and sundry horrors caused by the
> harvesting of your foods. Chunks of mice, prairie dogs, and cuddly
> bunnies are sucked up by combines along with the corn and wheat.
> Great green globs of greasy grimey gopher guts are part and parcel
> to the whole grain breakfast cereals. Cutting the little mammals to
> little pieces is far worse that the conditions at Harris Ranch.
?? I don't see how cutting a rabbit to pieces is any better or worse than cutting a cow or a chicken to pieces. In both cases you kill an animal.
>The point? It's difficult to put down the horrors of animal
> domestication and slaughter when viewed in light of the other
> horrors caused by cultivation of produce.
Not a supportable statement. You might as well say that the pain of paying a 7% sales tax is the same as paying a 39% income tax. Eating meat uses roughly six to ten times the environmental resources as eating vegetables on a per calorie basis.
>If it is animal suffering and damage to the environment you seek to
> avoid, you basically have no choice other than growing your own
> vegetables without any protections at all.
Or buy those vegetables that are grown without pesticides, artificial fertilizers etc. They generate far less environmental impact.
b1jercat 0
I wonder how many people know that meat is not a bright red color like you see in the store?
blues
jerry
blues
jerry
Thank you BILL!! Innaccuracies and misleading facts are rampant in the meat and dairy marketing.
Fireflyer, we are only humans. Not one of us is omniscient or perfect in our actions. No one here yet has claimed to be morally (or in any way) superior. The challenge to vegans regarding leather is a common one. But really a moot point. What you're essentially asking is "why aren't you PERFECT in your beliefs?"
Well, I would challenge you that no one is.
(Do you really think that someone who has thought long and hard about these issues, altered their entire way of eating is being enlightened by your question? Gee, I never thought leather came from animals!)
I don't use the word vegan like some kind of badge or symbol of purity. Personally, I don't really like it. It puts people on the defensive and frankly, it sounds self-righteous. But again, it's a commonly understood and recognizable term - easiest when describing my diet.
We're all different. We all have our battles to fight, our beliefs to uphold. Thankfully we all don't have the same ones or we'd never learn from each other. No progress would ever be made in other areas.
I choose this not only because I believe something in our society has gone awry that we turn our heads to the destruction of the earth but also to the torture of animals. And that makes me sad - and want to do something about it.
Making a decision to not financially support the meat and dairy industry is my stand. That will always lead to discussion - generally of the "you're some kind of hippy radical" nature, but hey, those who aren't open to thoughtful discussion will probably never change their minds anyway.
If I raged against everything I thought unjust in the world - I wouldn't live a productive life. That's not me. There are those who can. Those who alter their entire lives and even being for their cause. I applaud them in following their hearts. And thank them for their accomplishments. No matter how small or big your effort - we all know that change will not come in our lifetime. A small, measured, steady effort will change things over time. I'm just doing my little part.
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
Fireflyer, we are only humans. Not one of us is omniscient or perfect in our actions. No one here yet has claimed to be morally (or in any way) superior. The challenge to vegans regarding leather is a common one. But really a moot point. What you're essentially asking is "why aren't you PERFECT in your beliefs?"
Well, I would challenge you that no one is.
(Do you really think that someone who has thought long and hard about these issues, altered their entire way of eating is being enlightened by your question? Gee, I never thought leather came from animals!)
I don't use the word vegan like some kind of badge or symbol of purity. Personally, I don't really like it. It puts people on the defensive and frankly, it sounds self-righteous. But again, it's a commonly understood and recognizable term - easiest when describing my diet.
We're all different. We all have our battles to fight, our beliefs to uphold. Thankfully we all don't have the same ones or we'd never learn from each other. No progress would ever be made in other areas.
I choose this not only because I believe something in our society has gone awry that we turn our heads to the destruction of the earth but also to the torture of animals. And that makes me sad - and want to do something about it.
Making a decision to not financially support the meat and dairy industry is my stand. That will always lead to discussion - generally of the "you're some kind of hippy radical" nature, but hey, those who aren't open to thoughtful discussion will probably never change their minds anyway.
If I raged against everything I thought unjust in the world - I wouldn't live a productive life. That's not me. There are those who can. Those who alter their entire lives and even being for their cause. I applaud them in following their hearts. And thank them for their accomplishments. No matter how small or big your effort - we all know that change will not come in our lifetime. A small, measured, steady effort will change things over time. I'm just doing my little part.
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
RevJim 0
Um, Bill, lawrocket's post read, to me, like satire.
It seemed like a tongue in cheek post.
If not, my bad, but that's how it read to me.
It seemed like a tongue in cheek post.
If not, my bad, but that's how it read to me.
It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1
Paige 0
But they taste sooooooooooooo good
Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com
Actually, I want to thank you for trying to inform people. I am definitely not a vegetarian, but after reading similar facts like the ones you have posted, I cut WAY back on my meat consumption (I didn't have pork or cow for 6 months or so...I've been slipping recently, though). I'm a little more "aware" now.
For whatever reasons, it is hard to cut it all out of my diet. I don't think I can ever cut out poultry and fish! But, I think it would be a good thing if more were informed and cut back on their meat intake.
For whatever reasons, it is hard to cut it all out of my diet. I don't think I can ever cut out poultry and fish! But, I think it would be a good thing if more were informed and cut back on their meat intake.
There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
rehmwa 2
Simpson's quote (educational video tour of a meat packing plant)
Troy McClure and Timmy (TOMMY) going into the plant.
Troy, "Let's go onto the killing floor and see how it works. You know Timmy, 'Killing Floor' is really not a good description, it's more of a steel 'grate' to allow liquids and small parts to sluice through..."
"You ever look into the eyes of a cow? He wouldn't hesitate a second to kill and eat you."
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Troy McClure and Timmy (TOMMY) going into the plant.
Troy, "Let's go onto the killing floor and see how it works. You know Timmy, 'Killing Floor' is really not a good description, it's more of a steel 'grate' to allow liquids and small parts to sluice through..."
"You ever look into the eyes of a cow? He wouldn't hesitate a second to kill and eat you."
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
beowulf 1
I couldn't care less whether or not the cow that my steak came from was mistreated or not. I think it is ridiculus for people to attribute human aspects to animals. They are animals. Some of those animals are food. If I am really starving then all of them qualify as food. Your not eating meat does nothing to stop me or anyone else from doing so and does nothing about farmers 'mistreating' cows. 'mistreatin' animals is subjective. Does killing a cow and eating it qualify?
rehmwa 2
Very few of these people grew up on farms and has any idea whether the so called "mistreatment" they claim to have seen was some special report on an isolated incident or representative of the 'norm'. (Or they are just assuming it from a self proclaimed morally superior ground)
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
pajarito 0
My steak aaaalways tastes better when I know it came from a cute, big eyed, brown cow that some say was mistreated and that was killed in what some would consider an inhumane way. (licking my teeth) ... Yum!
EDYDO 0
QuoteQuoteI love animals, they're delicious!
If God didn't want us to eat animals,
He wouldn't have made them out of meat!
Human animals are made of meat. You don't eat humans though, do you? No. All animals suffer pain, whether human-animals or non-human animals. If humans treated other species with a bit more respect by not eating them, maybe we could learn to treat each other a bit better
You're serious, aren't you? Whay do you not post information about yourself in your profile?
Ed
billvon 2,476
>I think it is ridiculus for people to attribute human aspects to
> animals. They are animals.
Have you ever spent any time with animals? They share many traits with humans, including the ability to feel affection, pain, lust, anger, hunger, fear and happiness.
We're omnivores, and that means we eat meat, which means we kill animals to do so. We're also civilized beings, which means we can and should treat even the animals we eat humanely. Most people understand this; even most 'evil hunters' won't leave a gutshot deer to wander a few hours with its intestines trailing behind it.
>Does killing a cow and eating it qualify?
No; you can raise and slaughter an animal humanely or you can torture it to death. And if you think there's no difference you've never been on a farm.
> animals. They are animals.
Have you ever spent any time with animals? They share many traits with humans, including the ability to feel affection, pain, lust, anger, hunger, fear and happiness.
We're omnivores, and that means we eat meat, which means we kill animals to do so. We're also civilized beings, which means we can and should treat even the animals we eat humanely. Most people understand this; even most 'evil hunters' won't leave a gutshot deer to wander a few hours with its intestines trailing behind it.
>Does killing a cow and eating it qualify?
No; you can raise and slaughter an animal humanely or you can torture it to death. And if you think there's no difference you've never been on a farm.
DJL 232
QuoteI want to thank you for trying to inform people.
Yes. I love me some meat but concentrated feeding facilities are pretty nasty. I wouldn't eat an animal that I knew was sick through most of it's life. Also, factory farms do a lot of harm to surrounding areas. There have been riverways that were so flooded with parasites that all fishing had to stop. People were going blind and getting sick because parasites were in their eyes and brains.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher
QuoteYour not eating meat does nothing to stop me or anyone else from doing so and does nothing about farmers 'mistreating' cows
You're just plain wrong.
There is more to life than big sweeping change, radical overhauls and paradigm shifts.
Life is subtle and long-lasting. Every single thing you and I do has an effect. I'm sorry you feel so insignificant but you're not.
The power of a small act is overlooked only by those who choose not to see it. And the smallest acts of kindness are usually the ones with the greatest impact.
I'm not trying to change you. I don't know you. Are YOU trying to change MY mind? If not, what are you all so upset about? I'll listen to any point anyone has to make except for "tastes great" and "I don't care".
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
QuoteHave you ever spent any time with animals? They share many traits with humans, including the ability to feel affection, pain, lust, anger, hunger, fear and happiness.
Bears repeating.
If you believe your dog loves you, the idea one shouldn't attribute 'human' aspects to animals is ridiculous.
Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi
QuoteUm, Bill, lawrocket's post read, to me, like satire.
It seemed like a tongue in cheek post.
If not, my bad, but that's how it read to me.
Yes, you got it. I think I read a little too much PJ O'Rourke.
My point? I don't worry about this stuff. In fact, I haven't eaten meat in the last week. Why? Because my honey is pregnant and she doesn't crave it. Also, because I live in the Central Valley now, I know what good produce tastes like.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Kennedy 0
belle o the thread:
do you have a problem with hunting and/or eating game?
do you have a problem with "traditional" family small farms?
I respect your not trying to change people, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Personally, I'm a meat eater for a number of reasons, but I am just as opposed to factory farms as you are, I'd wager.
do you have a problem with hunting and/or eating game?
do you have a problem with "traditional" family small farms?
I respect your not trying to change people, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. Personally, I'm a meat eater for a number of reasons, but I am just as opposed to factory farms as you are, I'd wager.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Those were my questions back to him. I believe melee weapon generally encompasses any weapon used in hand to hand combat, from rocks and sharp sticks to long swords and mourning stars. Bow and arrow is pushing the definition, but his answer adequately covered our points of discussion.
Also, when I said "killed," I meant a land or flying animal or any other predator, just for clarification. So yes, a fishing net counts, but not if only used on fish.
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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