Poll: What Reserve Handle: Ring / Soft /Other

[fcajump 153]

This question stems from discussions I have had with one of my customers.

I am personally much more comfortable with having a ring that I can put my fingers through for a reserve handle... Its what I've had when I had to use it, and its earned my trust in all weather. Snag potential is there, but learned to protect it from the early days (back when the main was a ring-handled ripcord mounted outboard on the MLW )

Due to an issue with the pocket size, this customer's D ring was constantly popping 1/2 out of the pocket.

We both felt that this was unacceptable, and talked options with the factory. After discussing all options, the customer chose to go to a pillow handle (with hard insert), and is happy with it.

I also jump his rig on occasion and while not 100% happy with it (compared to a ring), it seems OK.

Your experiences (especially any negative either way)?
Any added concerns with cold weather?
Reasons for your choice?

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[tetra316 0]

I use a low profile D ring. Half the size of an original D ring and not much bigger than a pillow handle. Havn't used it yet (knock on wood) but it appears much easier to be able to grab a hold of in a violent mal. Or rather stick a thumb through as you wouldn't necessarily need to 'grab' as you would a pillow handle.

[sundevil777 93]

It has been shown that it is possible to hold onto a pillow with a great deal of force, but I think that finding might not be so true if the pillow must be grabbed and force applied very quickly. When I need to grab a handle fast and be able to pull hard, I want something that allows me to grab it using that wonderful opposable thumb.

I think that much of the objection to the standard D handle is minimized when some alternatives are available, see pics.

I think this version of the low profile metal handle is great, and much better than the triangular alternatives I've seen. It just doesn't stick out that much, but is still very easy to find in a hurry. The second pic shows both for comparison, they fit in the same pocket.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[fcajump 153]

Thanks.

This guy's problem was the pocket is just too short such that when the MLW is under tension the handle wants to pop the bottom end out.

(brand new rig / fresh velcro)

Can't extend the pocket due to MLW length between hip and chest rings.

We discussed trying to find a shorter handle, but he chose the soft (for now).


JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[billvon 2,400]

Another option is a soft loop handle. Similar in many ways to a soft handle, but a lot easier to grab.

[airtwardo 6]

My EP's are so ingrained I can't imagine ever having anything but a Steel D...thumb through the ring make a fist and punch like yer life depended on it...

Proven effective 14 times thus far!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Another option is a soft loop handle. Similar in many ways to a soft handle, but a lot easier to grab.

...anybody make toggles like that?

I'd love something that easy to grab in a hurry... with gloves on...at night.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[likestojump 3]

like this ? http://www.apexbase.com/product.php?product_id=135

[dragon2 0]

CRW jumpers also have a variety of big/easy toggles.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[fcajump 153]

Quote

Another option is a soft loop handle. Similar in many ways to a soft handle, but a lot easier to grab.

I know two jumpers (one who posts here) that have loop cutaway handles to make them easier to grab/hold/pull without adding the weight of a full d-ring.

Furthers my thinking that loops are better than pillows when the pulling gets tough.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[blondeskydiver 0]

I've had only one cut-away (so far) - any I was taught two hands on one handel, then repeat.

I had a very baggy suit (why, don't know, I'm skinny and didn't know what to buy). When the time came, I lost track of my D-Ring cause it was buried in extra fabric and had to find it by feeling for it, which I really wasn't prepared for. I put hand-over-hand and felt the metal and pulled. Now I have a great suit, but for that, I will ALWAYS have metal.

Just my personal 2cents.

[fcajump 153]

Quote

I've had only one cut-away (so far) - any I was taught two hands on one handel, then repeat.

I had a very baggy suit (why, don't know, I'm skinny and didn't know what to buy). When the time came, I lost track of my D-Ring cause it was buried in extra fabric and had to find it by feeling for it, which I really wasn't prepared for. I put hand-over-hand and felt the metal and pulled. Now I have a great suit, but for that, I will ALWAYS have metal.

Just my personal 2cents.

Thanks.
One of the briefings I give my PEP customers is to practice with their eyes shut (not going to be wearing goggles) and to note that nothing else on the rig feels like that D-ring. (and right about then, nothing feels as good as a good crisp opening.)

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[koppel 3]

We had a similar problem on a customers V3. The D-handle would continually push out from the bottom of the pocket.

The solution we found for this was to convert the pocket to a Wings style pocket with Hook on the Back portion of the pocket and a flap of Pile that is attached to a piece of Type XII that is only attached at the back seam but not to the front of the pocket. This allows a lot more movement in the MLW without the handle moving.

SOrry no camera to hand to show you right now.

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[VTmotoMike08 0]

I use a soft pillow handle because of this incident that happed at my DZ:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3636210;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

In skydiving, you have to manage the risks and occasionally make compromises. I acknowledge that I am more likely to go in from a no or low pull on my reserve after a cutaway than a tail strike my accidental reserve activation in the door (or at another time). However, pulling my reserve after a cutaway is something that I can control pretty myself. Accidental reserve pull is something that someone else might do to me, and that is a harder risk for me to manage.

I take the compromise of possibly taking longer to pull my reserve after a cutaway in exchange for making it harder for some other moron to accidentally pull my reserve at the wrong time. However, I understand why some might make the opposite choice. Pay your money and take your chances

[dks13827 3]

way back, there were ripcord stops, as most have indeed heard of. After all too many fatal accidents, folks finally said, okay, okay, I get it...... not worth the risk !!! :(

[fcajump 153]

Quote

I use a soft pillow handle because of this incident that happed at my DZ:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3636210;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

This customer and I occasionally jump there, great DZ (long drive). We were very sorry to hear of the loss.

As the details came out of how it happened, he and I revisited our (dis)comfort level with the handle's behavior on this particular rig. That is when he decided to make the change. (His other rig does not have this issue, so he stayed with the original D.)

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[thrillstalker 0]

Quote

Another option is a soft loop handle. Similar in many ways to a soft handle, but a lot easier to grab.

O
I've only seen one person with one of these, and it looked like a good idea. Wouldn't the snag hazard be just as great as with a d ring? What are the pros and cons of this type handle?

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[riggermick 6]

Quote

This question stems from discussions I have had with one of my customers.

I am personally much more comfortable with having a ring that I can put my fingers through for a reserve handle... Its what I've had when I had to use it, and its earned my trust in all weather. Snag potential is there, but learned to protect it from the early days (back when the main was a ring-handled ripcord mounted outboard on the MLW )

Due to an issue with the pocket size, this customer's D ring was constantly popping 1/2 out of the pocket.

We both felt that this was unacceptable, and talked options with the factory. After discussing all options, the customer chose to go to a pillow handle (with hard insert), and is happy with it.

I also jump his rig on occasion and while not 100% happy with it (compared to a ring), it seems OK.

Your experiences (especially any negative either way)?
Any added concerns with cold weather?
Reasons for your choice?


Martin Baker handle with elastic keeper would work in a tight area.

Mick.
JW

[muff528 3]

Quote

My EP's are so ingrained I can't imagine ever having anything but a Steel D...thumb through the ring make a fist and punch like yer life depended on it...

Proven effective 14 times thus far!

Agree..... but only 3 times for me.

[BMFin 0]

As we know, both handles have pros and cons. D-ring may be easier to locate in a hurry, but it is more likely to cause a premature opening. Then again the soft is less likely to cause a premature, but maybe harder to locate in a hurry.

Both designs have caused fatalities and prevented fatalities. Nearly all (if not 100%) of the no pull fatalities caused by the soft pillow could have been prevented with either an AAD or an RSL. For the fatalities and injuries caused by the D-ring the only remedy IMO could have been the soft handle.

Therefore:
I would go for the soft + AAD combo. This way I think I could have the best of both worlds. No system is fool proof, but I think with this combo both premature- and no pull- scenarios are much less likely.

However, I dont think there is one solution that fits all. Everyone should adjust their gear according to their use. If I was building a swoop rig for my self, I would most likely get soft loops for both cut away and reserve.

Sadly Im not able to use the soft pillow on my reserve, since it is banned in Finland after an incident in 2003. Finland is the only country in the world where soft pillows arent allowed.

[billvon 2,400]

>I've only seen one person with one of these, and it looked like a good
>idea. Wouldn't the snag hazard be just as great as with a d ring?

Yes - but when you want to deploy your reserve, you want that thing snaggy. That makes them easier to grab and pull.

It doesn't seem like reserve handles getting snagged are a very big source of problems in this sport. But then again, neither are soft handles that are too soft to be pulled, so it's probably six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[BMFin 0]

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It doesn't seem like reserve handles getting snagged are a very big source of problems in this sport. But then again, neither are soft handles that are too soft to be pulled, so it's probably six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Im not saying you are wrong, but when looking at statistics we shouldnt just look at fatalities, since D-rings cause a lot of injuries, but soft pillows dont.

[JohnRich 4]

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Furthers my thinking that loops are better than pillows when the pulling gets tough.

Yes, but that's only 1 out of every 500 or so jumps.

On the other 499 jumps when a reserve pull is not needed, then a loop creates a much bigger snag hazard than a pillow.

So, making for an easier reserve pull once every blue moon, can increase your danger all the other times.

[fcajump 153]

Quote

Quote

Furthers my thinking that loops are better than pillows when the pulling gets tough.

Yes, but that's only 1 out of every 500 or so jumps.

On the other 499 jumps when a reserve pull is not needed, then a loop creates a much bigger snag hazard than a pillow.

So, making for an easier reserve pull once every blue moon, can increase your danger all the other times.

Well... removing it all together also removes the risk of it being snagged... Miss that pillow just once in those 500 and you wont have to worry about it getting snagged on the next jump.

I do get your point, but it seems that the occasions where a handle is snagged (admittedly VERY bad) is much less frequent than no pulls (or Cypres "pulls").

JW

PS - thanks, this is the type discussion I am looking for... While I am glad to be right as usual , I value your (collective) contrary opinons and logic... it keeps me thinking from different angles. (or as someone once said... "with new eyes")

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[davelepka 4]

People talk a lot about the 'snag hazzard' of a D-ring reserve handle, but I have never, ever once had either a cutaway or reserve handle come loose or get snagged in freefall.

Furthermore, I'd be interested to hear, even anecdotely about instances where a D-ring reserve handle was snagged, resulting in a reserve deployment causing injury to the jumper, or other jumpers.

I know FOR SURE of about a dozen stories of hard pulls on pillow type handles where the jumper eventualyl got it pulled, but they took several tries to get it out. One of them ended up under an open reserve less than 150ft from the ground. These are confirmed by the surviving jumpers who all switched to a D-ring afterwards.

I also know of at least a dozen fatalities involving low reserve deployments where a soft handle was suspected to be the cause of the delay between the cutaway and the reserve pull.

You simply cannot beat the mechanical advantage of a handle you can wedge in between your thumb and first finger and pull with no grip or hand strength required. When it comes to a 'must have' handle like the reserve, you take every advatage you can get. Your main PC - optional. The cutaway pillow - optional. The reserve handle - not optional.