Overweight, Elderly, Uncurrent Skydiver

[chuckakers 370]

akarunway

***Eventually there will be enough of these "larger than life" types to get obesity classified as a disability. Then they'll be able to sue anybody that refuses service under the ADA laws. It's coming. Ask anybody that's been sued over some of the ridiculous access laws already in place.

It already is. Go to the govt. SSDI website.

I'm not sure the ADA discrimination thing is applicable when a person's safety could/would be compromised by forcing the business into the relationship.

Can anyone "expand" on that?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[skyjumpenfool 2]

One small comment... Even us old, fat skydivers read forums. I'm hoping this person is not reading this.....

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[skydived19006 4]

skyjumpenfool

One small comment... Even us old, fat skydivers read forums. I'm hoping this person is not reading this.....

I would hope that he's not 'in the building' as well. I did change the names in order to protect the innocent, but it wouldn't be very difficult to put it together. He's never contacted me through email, only phone, so guessing that he's not super internet savoy.

But then, I generally try to live by the rule "Don't say anything about a person that you wouldn't say to that person."

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[jimjumper 25]

That's why I only hinted at the ADA thingy.

[airdvr 197]

I'm just wondering what it was he wanted to do that was so dangerous for you? Devil's advocate here; he had a rig, you've told him that you don't think it's safe for him to jump. I'm sure he's signed your 16 page waiver. Add a 17th page that is the letter above.

Was he wanting to be a late diver or do CReW? Had he never jumped a square? He just wanted to make a jump. It's his problem if he's not physically fit. He wasn't endangering anyone but himself. You pays yer money...

This old-timer thinks you should reconsider letting that old timer make a jump...alone.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[mcordell 2]

I absolutely disagree with. He is endangering himself, potentially people on the ground, and every jumper who patronizes that business. Having this guy go out and kill himself at the dropzone will undoubtedly cause bad press for the DZ which in turn can have an effect on business. There are also liability concerns. Waivers have historically only mattered a little in Kansas. In cases of neglect on the part of the business owner, the waiver doesn't mean a whole lot. One could argue that if the DZO knew he was unfit for the sport and likely to be injured that there is some degree of neglect in letting him jump.

We aren't talking about a major 7 day a week dropzone. This is a good little DZ with one plane and a tight knit group of jumpers and the business owner has to make decisions he feels are best for the business as a whole. The only other DZ in the area is currently not able to run due to an airport conflict and the jumpers here will have no real options if the airport owner shuts them down because an old obese man goes in.

For what it's worth I think it's the right call.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[skydived19006 4]

There ya go. I should have sent him to SDAZ, they tend to average a couple of fatalities a year. This guy could kill himself there and simply be lost in the numbers.

Skydiving deaths tend to be big news as with airplane crashes. Because it's not a common occurrence, it's interesting to people. Shit that happens every day like highway/auto related fatalities isn't news, it's too commonplace.

There's an emotional toll left to all who remain as well. My wife has flat out informed me that if we have another serious injury or fatality that she'll be done.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[obelixtim 100]

A few strong emotional strings being pulled here, must be divorced from your decision.

Simple question to answer is:

"Would I let a 20 year old, 30 year old or 40 year old who had identical physical characteristics onto the plane "?

No?.

The case rests.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[skydived19006 4]

obelixtim

A few strong emotional strings being pulled here, must be divorced from your decision.

Simple question to answer is:

"Would I let a 20 year old, 30 year old or 40 year old who had identical physical characteristics onto the plane "?

No?.

The case rests.....

Exactly

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[cruelpops 0]

airdvr

I'm just wondering what it was he wanted to do that was so dangerous for you? Devil's advocate here; he had a rig, you've told him that you don't think it's safe for him to jump. I'm sure he's signed your 16 page waiver. Add a 17th page that is the letter above.

Was he wanting to be a late diver or do CReW? Had he never jumped a square? He just wanted to make a jump. It's his problem if he's not physically fit. He wasn't endangering anyone but himself. You pays yer money...

This old-timer thinks you should reconsider letting that old timer make a jump...alone.

Let's take the Devil's Advocate role a little further. Let's say the "responsible DZ manager/owner/operator" chooses to let the old fat ass jump and the old fat ass pounds into the ground. What does that do for the business? How much longer does the DZ stay in business after the old fat ass turns himself into a bloody meat pile? How many wrongful death lawsuits can the DZ owner/operator sustain because they decided to play bleeding heart and allow the old fat ass to squeeze into one of their planes and die?

[dorbie 0]

Giving him a clear weight target is the fair thing to do. I just shed some weight to get my fat ass under the reserve TSO. I made a couple of jumps today.

Respect for sticking to your original offer, there's nothing worse than getting one story from a DZ one week and another 2 weeks later.

[skydived19006 4]

I do really doubt that the guy will end up reading this thread, but I believe that we should maintain a level of respect regardless. He's retired military, and likely served in combat during the conflict in SE Asia. He has 500 plus jumps through a huge period of change in the sport. Military and civilian jumps, instruction, demonstration jumps, etc.

That said, he called this morning after receiving the checkbook and my note. He talked with Angie (my wife) and thanked her for our thoughtful concern for him and his safety. He gets it.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[Anachronist 2]

Glad he seemed to get the picture. One thing I didn't see get brought up was psychological issues, though I didn't read the thread exhaustively.

This guy has done some jumping, he knows what it's about, he knows that he is now physically limited and nearing the end of his life. 78 is a good run and being so heavy is likely going to make his remaining time very limited.

He either knows he doesn't have any business jumping, and is looking for one last hoorah, or he doesn't know and doesn't remember what it was actually like and he is severely cognitively impaired.

Whenever someone wants to return to jumping after a very long time or wants to start jumping past the age of 40, some serious questions have to be raised about state of mind. It doesn't mean those two things are disqualifying or someone can't enjoy the sport again or start a little late, but they are red flags that deserve to be thought about and investigated if possible.

[skydived19006 4]

dorbie

Giving him a clear weight target is the fair thing to do. I just shed some weight to get my fat ass under the reserve TSO. I made a couple of jumps today.

Respect for sticking to your original offer, there's nothing worse than getting one story from a DZ one week and another 2 weeks later.

I imagine that a very large portion of the skydivers actively work to maintain a certain weight, I know that I do. A few demographics of skydivers may not have to work at it, many are young, work/work out to burn calories, and another group are the skydiving anvels.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[tkhayes 126]

people are reading way too much into this. ADA? careful wording? bottom line - that guy should NOT be jumping- period. if he is 78 and 270, he is going to get hurt. He will not be able to flare a 470 sqft main.

He will not likely be able to even exit an airplane without putting the airplane at risk. And most likely be unable to deal with any EP you task him with.

He will get half way to altitude and will be huffing and puffing and out of breath.

Regardless of his jumping history, he is a different person from what he was then and is lacking DECADES of experience. Sure, plenty of elderly people are jumping, but they have EXPERIENCE, they are CURRENT, they kept up with it all these years, and you are not going to be able to re-teach that missing 'experience'.

You do not need to define the reasons any more than 'based on my vast and current experience, you should not be skydiving'. and leave it at that. I would not bother with letters or writing anything, a phone call will do.

I get loads of people like this - they want to start learning to skydive at 75 years old. no. they are 300 lbs and do not understand why they cannot. They want to re-live their days of old, but they missed that boat - it has sailed.

"Your inability to understand the sport, sir, in no way influences the decisions I make"

"100 lb people do not play pro football and 300lb people do not skydive"

"I know you had 1000 jumps 45 years ago, but you were younger, in better shape, better reflexes, and a lot slimmer then as well"

"If you have those 1000 jumps that you claim, then surely you understand the complications, the training, the execution, the issues that skydiving has.....what makes you think you can still deal with all that?"

"I know you really really really want to skydive. I want to be an astronaut, but that is not going to happen either, no matter how badly I want it"

them: "I don't care if I get hurt". me: "I do"

we have real limitations in this sport. It is your business and it is your liability. rather than write letters to him, write down the defense you would use, standing in a courtroom, justifying how you let this person make a jump. And ask yourself how many 'reasonable' people would have let this person jump.

Just say no. leave it at that. He is spending thousands on gear? too bad for him - that is bad planning and bad foresight, and should not in any way influence any decisions you make, or anyone else.

It's like buying a jet before I start flight school. a bad decision. Just like his other decisions.....

[chuckakers 370]

airdvr

I'm just wondering what it was he wanted to do that was so dangerous for you? Devil's advocate here; he had a rig, you've told him that you don't think it's safe for him to jump. I'm sure he's signed your 16 page waiver. Add a 17th page that is the letter above.

Was he wanting to be a late diver or do CReW? Had he never jumped a square? He just wanted to make a jump. It's his problem if he's not physically fit. He wasn't endangering anyone but himself. You pays yer money...

This old-timer thinks you should reconsider letting that old timer make a jump...alone.

You're kidding, right?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Anachronist 2]

"100 lb people do not play pro football and 300lb people do not skydive"

Just wanted to chime in on this comment because of a friend's personal experience. I totally agree this guy at 5'8"-ish and 270 can't be anything other than very un-physically fit and his advanced age only makes it worse.

My friend is ~6'5" and a little over 300lbs without gear. He is a former professional athlete and still young and in very good shape, he is just a huge guy, doesn't take much imagination to guess what sport he played but I don't want to go into that and jeopardize his privacy.

Anyway, there was considerable speculation that he wouldn't be able to jump or at least enjoy it to the same degree as everyone else. Long story short, he found a DZ that would take him on a tandem, he did AFF using modified gear, and x-years later, he is still making over 100 jumps a year, he has over 500 jumps, bellyflys, freeflys, and wingsuits.

300lb people can indeed jump, and do it very well, but it takes a special person, a special DZ, and an open mind.

[Guru312 0]

skydived19006

For consideration, comment, etc.

As you can see from my time in the sport I've been around. My jump numbers reflect being a multiple-DZO, instructor and jump pilot.

I don't have anything meaningful from a safety/training perspective to add to the discussion. But... I do want to comment on the over-all concern, thought and comments presented by everyone posting. You folks and your insightful comments underscore what a fantastic group of people parachute instructors really are.

It is because of concerns like y'all voiced that our rather dangerous sport is as safe as it is.

Frankly, in away, I kind of hope the person in question does read this thread. He will know--and maybe understand--how professional and dedicated total strangers feel about our sport...and him and his safety.

Good job!!!

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[tkhayes 126]

Quote

....but it takes a special person...

yes it does take a special person, my comments were generic and there are exceptions to every rule. But very few exceptions.

#1. I trained a para handicap guy to skydive and he is solo now, working on the license with restrictions/exceptions on it.

That does not mean that paraplegics all can skydive nor does it mean that I am interested in the time investment in teaching another one.

But it has for example opened some floodgates of requests for me to do the same for all these other people.....I simply state 'no'. I am not interested and they do not have enough money to make it worth my while. Pookie got lucky in many ways, and he persevered.

However we also have earned the title of being the 'go-to' place for para and quad tandems due to the experience we have built up over the years.

#2. Norm Olson came back after not jumping for 25 years at age 75. We let him jump. The reason? He was one of the original founding members of the Navy LeapFrogs. He held every license and instructional rating at the time of his 'departure' from skydiving in 1983 with over 2300 jumps. And to top all that he is and was in perfect health.

His military background and his experience also told him that he needed MUCH refresher training and was even willing to do as many AFF/Coach jumps as we thought he needed before cutting him loose and he did another 1700 jumps over 5 years before retiring completely at age 80.

Yes there are always exceptions. The exceptions often cost a dropzone a lot of risk, a lot of extra time and effort. And while I (we) are in the business of making people's dreams come true, I still have a cost/value/time/effort/safety factors that are involved and ultimately I get to make the call of whether or not a particular person should be jumping.

You were willing to work with a 300lb guy - good for you - I would never be willing to do that under any circumstances....there is not enough money in it to make that effort. Gear limitations and being able to fall at 140+MPH alone is enough for me to say no. It is simply not worth the extra effort.

We all have our own limits and draw the line at a slightly different place in the sand.

[airdvr 197]

Absolutely not. Right now I think he might have a discrimination suit. Show where these things are written. I get that you're lawyer diligent.

You should have asked for a physical but even that is not mandatory to make a sport jump...or consulted your corporate atty. Making up the rules on the fly can get expensive.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[chuckakers 370]

airdvr

Absolutely not. Right now I think he might have a discrimination suit. Show where these things are written. I get that you're lawyer diligent.

You should have asked for a physical but even that is not mandatory to make a sport jump...or consulted your corporate atty. Making up the rules on the fly can get expensive.

I'd be interested to hear what a lawyer has to say on this, but I think you get the discrimination thing wrong. It is not discriminatory to refuse service to someone on the grounds of safety.

A race track company doesn't have to rent a car to a blind person. An amusement park is free to turn away someone who is not tall enough to safely ride certain rides. There are many, many examples of businesses legitimately limiting customer activities for safety reasons.

This isn't about refusing service to someone because he's overweight. It's about refusing service to someone because in the opinion of the DZO it would be unsafe to let him jump regardless of the reason.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[mcordell 2]

airdvr

Absolutely not. Right now I think he might have a discrimination suit. Show where these things are written. I get that you're lawyer diligent.

You should have asked for a physical but even that is not mandatory to make a sport jump...or consulted your corporate atty. Making up the rules on the fly can get expensive.

There's no discrimination suit here. He is physically unfit to engage in a sport that can be dangerous. it's no different than telling someone with a heart condition they can't go on an amusement park ride. Physically strenuous activities are not suitable for someone with health issues and especially someone with health issues who also happens to be elderly. Business owners have the right to determine what risks they are and are not willing to take and mitigating risk is not discrimination. If he said he couldn't jump because of his sexual orientation, race, gender, etc, then yes, I would agree with you. Telling someone they cannot jump out of concern for their safety is absolutely reasonable.

What I find more interesting is, this guy has already expressed his appreciation for their concern about his safety. There's really nothing else to debate about it.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[airdvr 197]

You forgot age. If you run a business and these types of criteria are not written in your compny policy I can almost guarantee some sort of action in the near future.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[skyjumpenfool 2]

skydived19006

That said, he called this morning after receiving the checkbook and my note. He talked with Angie (my wife) and thanked her for our thoughtful concern for him and his safety. He gets it.

Martin

Good on you. People tend to respond well when treated fairly with respect.

@ cruelpops People tend to respond well when treated fairly with respect. And, vise-versa.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[chuckakers 370]

airdvr

You forgot age. If you run a business and these types of criteria are not written in your compny policy I can almost guarantee some sort of action in the near future.

Again, I think you are mistaken. I believe a protected class is not protected when safety is the issue. I do not believe the courts would rule that a business must conduct a transaction with a consumer of any protected class if doing so would risk the safety of that consumer or anyone else.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX