Express Flaking?

[RustyOats 0]

Some packers at my dz flake by just shaking the canopy back and forth and it seems to work ok (they all have opened) is there a downside to this technique? What is the purpose of flaking in the first place? No I don't know a lot about packing but taking the class soon and wanted to know if I should be using that technique or if it will eventually bite me.

Thanks!

[menopause 0]

Flaking the lines takes like 5 seconds, there is really no reason not to do it. It also isn't very important.

[AndyMan 7]

The one key piece of advice I can offer, is to take advice only from your instructors, and not from a packer unless he's also a rigger, and certainly not from some forum on the internet.


_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I would be curious to see if not flaking accelerates wear of the fabric. I suspect that being trapped between the lines may increase wear as the canopy inflates. I also wonder if not flaking increases the risk of a lineover.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Jbag 0]

the point of flaking is to facilitate opening, lines on the inside, fabric on the outside...

IHYD

[FrEaK_aCcIdEnT 0]

Quote

the point of flaking is to facilitate opening, lines on the inside, fabric on the outside...

... can we add to that; to facilitate a "symmetrical" opening?

ExPeCt ThE uNeXpEcTeD!
DoNt MiNd ThE tYpOs, Im LaZy On CoRrEcTiOnS!

[NovaTTT 1]

[rigger viewpoint]

Flaking the parachute isn't a "good" thing in that not flaking isn't a "bad" thing.

Flaking is a better thing.

The best benefit of flaking is consistency of openings.

When packing, the most important thing is to get the lines taut and even from connection (riser) to attachment (bottom skin). This is easier done by flaking, which brings the lines to the center of the packjob.

The second most important thing is to control the slider: up tight against the stops, evenly quartered.

The third most important thing is to manage the first two during folding and bagging.

Finally, have tight, even locking loops and line stows.

[/rigger viewpoint]

Talk to your local rigger for packing tips for your specific parachute.

Blues. Nova

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[riggerpaul 1]

All he said, plus, nice neat flaking will make the pack job smaller.

A wrinkly messy pack job takes more space in the bag.

If you are already having trouble bagging, try to make your pack job neater and you will likely make things easier on yourself.

On the other hand, if your bag is slightly loose, you can make a slightly messier pack job (as long as the other requirements NovaTTT mentioned are still met) and it might take up some more room in the bag.

[dragon2 0]

From what I've done and seen, we definitely flake the student canopies cell by cell and the sport mains down to 135/120 sqft or so, but the smaller ones especially the crossbraced ones are hard to flake so these get shaken. I tend to just shake my 120 and 124 and they fall into place by themselves except for the steering lines, I also make sure the lines are on the inside and fabric on the outside for every line group. But have to flake my vengeance 135 a bit more.
If I pack a student canopy it gets flaked cell by cell because you can tell it is necessary as the bigger canopies do not fall into place well.
So, for the forseeable future at least, stick to flaking

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[RiggerLee 61]

Let me put this into perspective for you.

Rigging:

Watch us some time. Depending on the rigger and the rig you'll see him spend up to two houres packing it. Every layer of fabric will lay neatly in it's place. Every fold will be perfect. It will look like it's been ironed. There will not be one wrinkle. The pack job will be emaculate and perfect in every way.
I probable shouldn't tell you this but none of that has a fucking thing to do with the opening or reliability of the parachute. It's all about makeing it fit in the damn bag and how the rig looks when it's closed. That is actualy what we are judged on by our customers and even by other riggers.

Packing:

It's all about the $$$. It's about stuffing nylon in bags as fast as you can. It's about five min closeures. It's about makeing the bank as fast as you can, up to $1,000 a day. It's about getting ready for those long winter months when you may not see a penny for three months at a time. It's about rent, and car payments and beer money. Functions? The only thought payed to cutaways is that it might cost you a customer for the day or force you to hussle on his other rig if one of them is down. A certin rate of malfunction is expected and accepted. The increase in volume of business more the makes up for the ocasional cutaway and gear damage... that's their problem. You have to make bank, they have to take their chances.
Sorry to be blunt but that's the brutal honest truth. There's nothing wrong with paying a packer just remember what you're paying for. No one will ever take care of your gear like you will. It's your choice to abdecate that responceability that's up to you. And if any one tells you diffrent from this they're just blowing smoke up your ass.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[Bertt 0]

One other point about the difference between the way a packer packs a main and the way a rigger packs a reserve: reserves are packed to make them open quick; mains are packed to make them open soft and on heading - just like it says in the ad for every main canopy on the market.
As you learn to pack, look for those little tips that packers use to make customers happy and life easier for themselves.
The internet is a good place to raise questions. Packing class is a good place to ask questions - lots of them.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[JackC1 0]

One thing that can occur if you don't flake is that constantly whipping fabric past lines during opening over 100's of jumps can put friction burns in your canopy. But packers may not be overly worried about that.

[stayhigh 2]

are they flaking or are they not flaking at all???

I have only seen two packer in my entire life who doesn't flake at all.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[glgflyer 0]

I would like to know if there is any documented proof that not flaking actually causes any more wear and tear on the canopy. I am definitely not questioning this, I am just wondering if it has actually been proven. I jump a hornet 170 and I do flake my canopy. However, I have tested the shake flaking (or whatever you want to call it) a few times while packing. I first flaked the nose. Then I hold the nose cells tightly and give the canopy 3 good hard shakes while keeping tension on the suspension lines. Then I place the nose between my legs as usual. When I looked inside the canopy I was very surprised to see just how neatly the lines and fabric had fallen into place. All lines (except steering lines) had fallen right to the center and most of the fabric had fallen to the outside between the proper line groups. It really amazed me how neat it looked by just shaking it. So, I am just wondering if it really does cause more wear by doing this or is this just a myth. When you think about it, whether you flake or not, the lines and material still end up in a very tight, tiny package all folded together and placed in a small bag and then at deployment it is tossed into a 120 mph windstream. Just something to think about I guess. Once again, just for the record, I do flake my canopy. I am very anal about my packing but I am just wondering about this wear and tear thing.

[Southern_Man 0]

How many jumps/pack jobs on that canopy? I jump a hornet 210 and I always flake it.

I'm new at all of this but I've noticed that for some of the experienced jumpers w/ lots of jumps on their canopies, the material practically falls into place. I guess memory.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[erdnarob 1]

I have seen people packing like that. The most important is to have the 3 flakes of material (each side of the canopy) between A and B lines, B and C, and finally C and D lines well spread away from the middle of the hanging canopy where the lines should stay. Order is the rule. At inflation, everything, lines and material, have to spread out in place without any obstruction. Failure to do so may result in friction, burns or tear of the canopy.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mark 102]

Quote

I have seen people packing like that. The most important is to have the 3 flakes of material (each side of the canopy) between A and B lines, B and C, and finally C and D lines well spread away from the middle of the hanging canopy where the lines should stay. Order is the rule. At inflation, everything, lines and material, have to spread out in place without any obstruction. Failure to do so may result in friction, burns or tear of the canopy.

In flat packing, all the cells (except one on the end) are on the "wrong" side of the lines. No greater incidence of friction, burns or tears than in pro-pack. Strong tandem reserves are packed this way.

In pro-packing a 9-cell canopy symmetrically, four cells go to each side. So four cells to one side is okay - even though you are pushing center cell fabric in between a whole bunch of lines it will have to extract itself from. If four cells worth of fabric can extract itself from the lines you pushed it through, then four cells to one side is okay for a 7-cell canopy, and for a 5-cell canopy -- and packed that way, those canopies open just as straight as if they were symmetrically packed. Also, there's no greater incidence of friction, burns, or tears.

So how about just making sure the stabilizers are flaked to the outside? It turns out, that doesn't matter much either. At the initial stages of inflation (when the canopy is starting to spread but the slider is all the way up), the stabilizers are actually pressurized inward. You do need to make sure there are no lines hitched around the slider stops, but that's about it.

Essential steps:
_ Lines straight (includes not hitched around slider stops)
_ Brakes set
_ Slider full size
_ Slider against the stops
_ Bag locking stows adequate for locking bag until line stretch
_ Pilot chute cocked

Other steps are for control, or, in some cases, for symmetry (as in reserve packs).

Mark

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

I would like to know if there is any documented proof that not flaking actually causes any more wear and tear on the canopy.

Is 30 seconds too big price to flake it anyway?

[DARK 0]

im not a rigger only a packer

the only people iv seen never flake are ones with thousands of jumps who are flying small high performance canopies that dont have much material anyway

if you are trying to save time then ask your head packer to show you how to flake fast. you can do 90% of the flaking right after you count the cells and shake it out and right before you put the nose between your legs ask someone in the know on your dz to show you how to do that

you will knock minutes off your packjob by being good at bagging and being fast at line stows

[Butters 0]

Quote

Essential steps:
_ Brakes set
_ Lines straight (includes not hitched around slider stops)
_ Slider against the stops
_ Slider full size
_ Pilot chute cocked
_ Bag locking stows adequate for locking bag until line stretch

This is basically how I pack. Then again, I learned from you. Thanks ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[popsjumper 2]

Yes, shortcuts do have a way of coming back to bite you in the ass. Stick to manufacturer's recommendations.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[glgflyer 0]

No, 30 seconds is not too big a price to pay to flake it. And if you read the rest of my post that you got that from you will see that I stated 2 different times that I DO FLAKE MY CANOPY. I was just curious to know if it was fact or if it is a myth that not flaking actually causes more wear and tear. And so far it seems to be myth as no one has actually produced proof. Now, having said that, I still ALWAYS flake my canopy because just as you said, it only takes a half minute or so.

[erdnarob 1]

Obviously I was talking about the pro packing.
Thanks for the details

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Bodhisattva420 0]

Just stuff it in the bag!

[Bodhisattva420 0]

And its not called express flaking . . . its a very advanced method of packing referred to as 'Trash Packing' ;)