Sabre2: Your experience

[spootch 0]

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Dream on! i cant see any reason for sharing beer with you.

I'd rather watch you packing your brand new Sabre2 and enjoy the show.

Oh come on now, quit pouting your gonna trip on your bottom lip you are more than welcome to come watch me pack my new sabre2. I have barely managed to wrestle it in the bag more than a few hundred times.

To the op, good on ya for asking questions before you buy, it is good to see you are doing your homework. Arm yourself with knowledge.

To the rest of you kids out there, your mom is right, there is no such thing as a STUPID question. Oh and remember when she said "If you can't say anything nice.................."

[erdnarob 1]

I made almost 400 jumps on a Sabre 2 between 2003 and 2008 and I can tell you that it's a great canopy. Nice flying, and super powerful flare with long toggle range. Now for opening, you get used to it. Generally it doesn't give you an on heading opening but after one second or less, it is calm. The opening is fast but yet comfortable (average on 10 jumps is 340 ft of vertical distance). I got 2 medium line twists out of 400 jumps which is just OK. I was not rolling and creasing the 4 cell noses on each side toward the middle but just putting the cell noses very slightly toward the middle. If you want to improve your heading : after throwing away the pilot chute, resume your box position and look at the horizon (don't look at your pilot chute going up). As far as I know, The Sabre 2 is still the most popular canopy in the world and it deserves that position. People don't like the way it opens but for me, sacrificing one second at the opening to get 3-4 minutes of very good performance is well worth the little inconvenient.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[ridestrong 1]

Talk to Gary at http://www.KarnageKrew.com. He will set you up with a full demo rig with a Safire2 for you to try out. If you like it he can surely get you a deal on it.


Email: [email protected]

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Joellercoaster 6]

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My experience on a Sabre 2 was basically that the higher I loaded it, the better it opened (I've jumped 190, 170, 150 & 135)

+1

(Jumped the same sizes.)

Got to the point where I actually quite liked the 135!

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[JanuszPS 0]

What was yours experience with using fronts for landings? The same question can be put to Ian as a very experienced pilot? Any buckling problems while on fronts?
In my case Sa2 150 was buckling - on two different ones of the same size. Mine with 400 jumps on the lines and another brand new.
I think that Sa 2 is nice but far from perfection based on my experience as an owner of 150 loaded @ 1.25. But maybe I made not enough jumps ;-) to learn how to pack it as I made only 100+. there was always some issue with turns once to the right and once to the left but not more than 90 deg. Not a big deal. Also closed end cells - not a real problem. Maybe one or two hard openings - nothing comparing to a really hard one which I got on different canopy.
Forgetting the buckling effect Sabre 2 was a good choice to learn the landings - flare part of it.
It is also good canopy for WS but overall I prefer a Cobalt of the same size (150).
j.
Edit:
+1 for second hand first canopy

Back to Poland... back home.

[AggieDave 6]

Typically, with modern designed canopies that respond positively to front riser input, "bucking" from the canopy has to do with toggle settings.

When the control lines (toggles aka steering lines) are set too short, you are deflecting the tail of the canopy while pulling down the front riser. This will cause the canopy to "buck."

In my experience you have to let out the stock toggle position on Sabre2s to allow for front riser movement (assuming you have your toggles in your hands while doing front riser inputs, which you should). You'll find a happy medium between having the toggle settings short enough and close enough to the "stock" setting for a good toggle stroke, but long enough to allow for appropriate front riser input.

I recommend that you check with your rigger to help with the settings and adjustments until you learn how to properly finger trap and tie the setting. I also recommend that you make small adjustments, typically around an inch at a time, to get the setting correct with out letting too much out at once!

This isn't specific to the Sabre2. Other canopies I have had to make the same adjustment on: Sabre1, Stiletto, Cobalt, Pilot, Mamba, Crossfire2, Triathalon, Spectre, Heatwave, Hornet...I'm sure there are more, I just can't remember right now.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[anticube 0]

I too had serious bucking problem with my sabre2, a rigger changed the steering lines and made them shorter than they were before. When I lenghtened them back to where they were, the problem was gone.

170 loaded 1.24 at the time.

We'll see if I have to lengthen my new 150's steering lines too when I start using the fronts on it.


to the opening issue, I noticed more off heading openings later on with the canopy, probably something to do with line trim cause the canopy had 500-600 jumps on it without line chance at that time.. But those off headings were mostly like 90 degrees max so isn't a big deal. Not hard(not a single hard opening for 190 jumps) but doesn't take forever either. Closed end cells open nicely with a gentle pull from rears. I like it, but can't really compare it to anything else than pilot as I haven't been able to demo a safire2.

[DocPop 1]

My experience was that the stock toggle setting was about 3 inches too short on my Sabre2 150.

When I made the adjustment the bucking stopped.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[anticube 0]

Yeah i'll also point out that the new steering lines were probably set at factory length..

I acctually lenghtened them like 8 inches on the 170.. Luckily I have long arms :)

[AggieDave 6]

Now for those of you reading this going "well, why doesn't PD set the steering lines to the 'correct' length," understand that they do. The settings are placed in such a manner to give a good even flare stroke to an average jumper doing average things with their canopy.

When you start swooping you'll find that gear becomes modified to fit the activity. For instance, how many of you have seen the extra long chest straps that swoopers use to be able to move around in the harness more? How about the extra-long risers (25" range)? Special line type linesets and RDS systems and a whole slew of modifications that are done.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mrbiceps 0]

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Ive got 100 jumps now on my sabre2, 80% of the time it opens on heading and i am yet to have line twists with it apart from one half twist. However every jump i do get minor end cell closure but this is no problem after 1 pump of the breaks.

WOW does a sabre 2 really have end cell closures on EVERY jump u do? Whats the story with that? I have put 100 jumps on a old sabre 1 in really good nic with a bigger slider and have never had any end cell closures.

[AggieDave 6]

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WOW does a sabre 2 really have end cell closures on EVERY jump u do? Whats the story with that? I have put 100 jumps on a old sabre 1 in really good nic with a bigger slider and have never had any end cell closures.

There are 3 very important things that are similar between a Sabre2 and a Sabre1:

1. They both have 9 cells
2. They are both called Sabre
3. They are/were both made by PD.

That's basically where the similarities end.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[phoenixlpr 0]

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WOW does a sabre 2 really have end cell closures on EVERY jump u do? Whats the story with that? I have put 100 jumps on a old sabre 1 in really good nic with a bigger slider and have never had any end cell closures.

There are 3 very important things that are similar between a Sabre2 and a Sabre1:

1. They both have 9 cells
2. They are both called Sabre
3. They are/were both made by PD.

That's basically where the similarities end.

4. There are some small issues on some canopies on opening.

[DocPop 1]

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Now for those of you reading this going "well, why doesn't PD set the steering lines to the 'correct' length," understand that they do. The settings are placed in such a manner to give a good even flare stroke to an average jumper doing average things with their canopy.

Right. I had absolutely no problems with my canopy as stock until I started using front risers.

It did take some "brain re-calibration" to get used to the deeper stroke required for a full flare after I modified the toggle setting.

Having seen the number of newer (and more experienced) jumpers who do not finish their flare completely I am not surprised that the manufacturers compensate for this by having the toggles set higher on the lines.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[JanuszPS 0]

Thanks for the answer. although I know what is causing the bucking effect.
My only problem was that the steering lines length should be adjusted to get the most optimum from the flare part of the landing. So increasing the lines I was suffering from not finished flare - there was still power in the canopy which I couldn't translate to forward move.
So no matter what I was doing there was something always wrong (270 jumps on the lines that time).
So my question is if other owners have had the same problem that they couldn't get a perfect length for the landings (flare) and the front dives as that was the case with both mentioned canopies.
thanks
J.
BTW I fly Cobalt 120, 150 and just after Sa2 150 I moved to Cob 135 and there was no problem at all with the steering lines length - all was perfect in that matter after adjustment to fit my arms length. But they are elliptical so I presume there is no problem due to reduced tail length.
Edit just to add I'm really care about fully extending my arms and fully shut down the canopy at the flare end. And generally I don't have not-finished flare problem ;-)

Back to Poland... back home.

[JohnDeere 0]

If im reading your post right, then you should get longer risers. That will mean you can lengthen your brake lines (by the same amount your new risers are longer than your old risers) and fix the bucking problem and also give you the same amount of flaring power. So if brake lines give you the perfect flare at a certain length, but its bucking, then get risers that are 2" longer (or 4" longer, whatever it takes, as long as you can reach to toggles (its obvious that you have to be able to reach your toggles) and you can extend your brake lines 2" and get the same flare with out bucking or less bucking. Hope you understand....

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[JanuszPS 0]

Yep, I know what you are talking about. It is a valid point.

Once thinking about solution to my problem I took into consideration that option, but at some point I think that buying a new set of risers for particular canopy depending on bucking or not bucking properties of the canopy is not really right. New risers is about $160-220 range. And I believe that most of the canopies on the market are design for the most typical riser's length which is 20/21'' on most containers.

So my question is still not answered if other owners do have that problem? Or maybe most people do not care about bucking or do not use fronts for approach?

Usually exploring my problem I was observing others flying Sa2 and I noticed that it wasn't only my canopy bucking. Obviously not everything is noticeable from significant distance >300ft etc, ans not everybody is making deep dive for landing so that's why I'm asking here.

regards
j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[ianmdrennan 2]

The buckling is from deflection on the tailing edge, caused by brake lines that are too short.

It was said earlier in the thread, and is accurate.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[sparkie 0]

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There seems to be an ongoing trend in the older reviews that the Sabre2 consistently suffered(s) from long snivels, end cell closures, and off-headings. Not a deal breaker really, but I think I would simply get irritated having to deal with a line twist or hard end-cell closure turns on every opening.

The problems seem to transcend experience, wing loading, packing styles, and body position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJLfhB9akJI&feature=related

[JanuszPS 0]

Ian, I have asked if others have had the same issue with their canopies, not what causes the bucking. So it's not really answered.
j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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There seems to be an ongoing trend in the older reviews that the Sabre2 consistently suffered(s) from long snivels, end cell closures, and off-headings. Not a deal breaker really, but I think I would simply get irritated having to deal with a line twist or hard end-cell closure turns on every opening.

The problems seem to transcend experience, wing loading, packing styles, and body position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJLfhB9akJI&feature=related

Is that video yours? Have you ever thought that a canopy might open without kiting?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yea I thought the same thing, lets see the opening without flying the opening using 1-2 inches of risers at times

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[randompoints 0]

Really going to argue with Ian if its bucking your deflecting your tail, thats it

Love mine, i have great openings always on heading, i guess I do have some end cell closure's, but I really really don't understand why people get their undies in a twist on end cell's. Really doesn't matter, you can inflate them very quickly or just ignore them by the time I stow my slider and get ready to pop my brakes they work themselves out. I don't even consider them a nuisance

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Yea I thought the same thing, lets see the opening without flying the opening using 1-2 inches of risers at times

As requested http://www.performancedesigns.com/pdzone/videos_endcellclosure.asp

Note, that the pilots are holding the risers REALLY low and not controlling the heading of the canopy with them.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Cloudi 0]

Kiting? Seriously? I don't see any dramatic input to the risers or toggles during any of the openings in the YouTube video.

I am sick of covering my poor, sweet Sabre2's ears every time some uninformed shmuck talks bad about her.

Does she open off heading (off heading to me = more than 45 degrees)? Yes, when I'm a spaz in the harness but then when I get my sh*t together, relax, and let her fly, she always finds her heading. Watching her open is just asking for an off heading opening because I'm likely leaning one way or the other in the harness as I do it.

Does she open hard? Not for me, but even my lovely Spectre got my attention once or twice.

Does she have end cell closure? Usually, but that just means I have to either a) give it a second to clear itself or b) pull and hold the rears or toggles at 1/4 brakes for a second to let them finish inflating. Oh, the horror!

Get a grip people. There are many great canopies out there, including the Sabre2, others mentioned above, and others not mentioned.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with asking peoples' opinions on different canopies. Of course, those opinions aren't going to open, fly, or land it for you. Try as many as you can and make your own opinion.

Find the one you like and call it a day.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.