Not getting what you paid for..

[westcoastcan 0]

Hi all - I just got into skydiving last year and am still pretty new to the sport. Luckily I have a good team of riggers and instructors in my circle of friends to back me up.

I just recently bought my first set of gear, including a container from the classifieds section of this site. The transaction was mostly successful, except that he didn't include toggles for the main or reserve. From my understanding, these go with a container like a steering wheel goes with a car.

When I asked him about them, he said "I dont have them i thought they were in there."

So I contacted SunPath and was quoted $68 for both sets, incl shipping. I then asked him to reimburse me for this amount, as they were supposed to be included with the container. To which he replied, "you never asked if they were there though" and refused to reimburse me. I bring you back to my analogy, when buying a used car, am I supposed to ask if it has a steering wheel?!

My overall impression of this guy was that he didn't know much about selling skydiving gear, so I even check the stolen gear section just in case.

So my question is what would you do in this situation? I'm not so worried about the money, but is there somewhere to report the user so that others can be wary?

Thanks,
Morgaine

[likestojump 3]

Unfortunately when you are buying a car it's common sense that the steering wheel is included.

When buying/selling skydiving gear many people ASSume that risers are part of the canopy, that the freebag is part of the reserve. Why ? Because it's easier that way :)

If the person charged you a premium then you should press the case.
If the person said "complete container with all the parts" you should press the case.

If you got a $150 container, then I would highly doubt they would be willing to give you $68 back.

Unfortunately you cannot report the user per se, not like leaving negative feedback on eBay. You can however file a paypal dispute if that was the payment method you chose.

Good luck !

[dragon2 0]

I traded a canopy on here, when my "new" canopy arrived it was on (old CRW) risers and the receiver complained I didn't send any risers with mine... Well, no... Also very much doubt he'd have had any use for my French reversed risers anyway... I also got a canopy once without links (thanks alot for that mess) and the one 2nd hand rig I bought unseen came without a few parts but since I bought it from the manufacturer they made good by sending me brand new parts

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[councilman24 36]

Your good team of instructors and riggers should have told you to ask if all the parts were included. Toggles, especially main toggles, are routinely 'lost'. As above if 'all parts included' or 'complete' was part of the description or photos showed toggles and you didn't get them then you have a beef. You did ask for photos of all components didn't you? But if not, at BEST what was reasonable for you to ask for was to undo the deal. If you got what you could see in the photos thats all you can expect without asking or items being specified in the description. If the guy truely thought they were there he ought to at least spend a little time looking for them.

Sorry, it may seem obvious to you that they should be there but lots of gear ends up without all the original parts. Reserve toggles not being there is a little skanky. I recently bought a couple of older rigs. One came with more than described - BONUS, one had only the reserve pilot chute and freebag with the H/C, exactly what I expected.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,068]

Hi west,

Para-Gear has them at $18/set.

Much less than your quoted $68.

JerryBaumchen

[Canadianfella 0]

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Your good team of instructors and riggers should have told you to ask if all the parts were included.

In hindsight, yes, perhaps this should have been asked.

On the other hand, it is common knowledge that toggles, especially reserve toggles, come with the container system.

If you know anything about your equipment, you know that this is the case...

In this case the seller first claimed that they were packed in the box but then later states "you never asked." Sounds to me like the guy is trying to squeeze a few extra pennies out of a sale.

This is a dick move. Skydivers are your friends and you don't screw your friends.

[westcoastcan 0]

I guess I can understand why people would confuse what goes with what when making a sale. But looking back, I did ask that it came "reserve freebag/pilot chute, the main d-bag and collapsible pilot chute, and the reserve and cutaway handle". I guess I forgot to mention specifically "toggles". He replied that it was all there. I took that to mean it was a complete.

What gets me though, that even though he made the mistake, he wont do anything to rectify it.

Ah well, I'm going to see if anybody has a couple sets of toggles kicking around.

Morgaine

[skybytch 259]

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On the other hand, it is common knowledge that toggles, especially reserve toggles, come with the container system.

Is it? In 8 years of selling gear, I can't tell you how many times I had to ask sellers to send/bring risers, toggles (main and reserve), RSL's, pilot chutes, handles, etc. when I was checking in a consignment container. Or how many mains came with d-bags and risers, or without links.

Before working in the gear industry, I really thought the knowledge I had was common. But over and over again, people proved me wrong...

[VideoFly 0]

I recently bought a container which was missing the reserve risers. After asking around the DZ, another jumper gave me a set from his spare parts bag. I often give away parts to others in similar situations. Ask around before buying and someone may have some toggles for you. Unfortunately, I checked my boxes of parts and did not find any toggles to send you, but ask the people you jump with and hopefully, some toggles will turn up.

[Remster 24]

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I recently bought a container which was missing the reserve risers.

Huh? Missing reserve risers? How the hell did that happen? Did he cut them away with a hook knife?

Remster

[mrbiceps 0]

I say if you didnt specifically ask if they were included then it is partly your fault. At $18 for a new set i dont see what the big deal is.

[Canadianfella 0]

principle...

[voilsb 1]

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Unfortunately, I checked my boxes of parts and did not find any toggles to send you, but ask the people you jump with and hopefully, some toggles will turn up.

This is what makes skydiving such a great community.

Bravo!

Brian

[VideoFly 0]

I checked another bag of stuff and found an almost new set of risers with toggles. They are the wider risers, not the ones with the mini three-rings and velcro-backed yellow toggles. PM me if you want them and I will send them to you, no charge.

[VideoFly 0]

Sorry, I meant missing the reserve toggles.

[councilman24 36]

You need to check the profile before you accuse someone of not knowing what they are talking about.

Once the gear is out of the manufacturer's box the only things that come with it are what you ask about or see.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Nutz 0]

I have never gotten links with a canopy. I thought they were part of the risers. I'll be writing some nasty letters now!

"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"

[Canadianfella 0]

My statement was broad based and not a personal attack for not knowing equipment.

The lack of gear knowledge in this sport disgusts me, hence my statement.

I disagree with you though about what comes with a rig. If I am purchasing a rig, unless it is specified that it is missing components, I expect it to come with what it would from the manufacturer... That's a pretty basic request I think and one that you should be able to expect. I think it is pretty inappropriate to advertise a rig for sale without mentioning details like that. If I'm not going to send risers, I mention I am not selling risers and let the buyer make the decision. If I've jumped the reserve and lost a freebag/pc and have only the container, i'll sell it as such.. an INCOMPLETE rig... This goes for any component that should have come with the container from the start. Same with canopies.

Obviously we're not going to agree on this though because lets face it, people are ignorant and skydivers in general don't give a shit about their gear.

The bigger issue and the one I believe Morgaine was trying to make was that this asshole changed his story from "I thought they were in there" to "you never asked about them" once she complained about the toggles not being in the box. What ever happened to common courtesy?! When someone complains about a product you sell them, you make it right. Had this guy even offered to buy the $20 set of toggles from paragear for her, or split the cost, she probably would have been happy because he acknowledged the fact that he screwed up, instead, he decided to be a dick about it.

As mentioned before, skydivers are supposed to be your friends and you don't screw your friends.

[JohnRich 4]

Suck it up, cupcake, you're out $68. Considering the price of a new rig, that's pocket change. Move on.

[likestojump 3]

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Suck it up, cupcake, you're out $68. Considering the price of a new rig, that's pocket change. Move on.

so it's ok to screw someone, as long as it's for a small amount ?

Thank you for that lesson in business.

[riggerrob 561]

"so it's ok to screw someone, as long as you start with kissing and tickling?"

.........................................................................

... corrected it for you ...

[riggerrob 561]

Sadly, only riggers seem to understand PIA Technical Standard 102, which says that canopy manufacturers are responsible for supplying:
fabric and lines (usually sewn together)
slider
connector links
manual

harness/container manufacturers are responsible for everything else:
harness/container (usually sewn together)
pilot chutes (both main and reserve)
bridles (both main and reserve)
deployment bags (both main and reserve)
steering toggles (both main and reserve)
closing loops (both main and reserve)
reserve ripcord
3-Ring release handle
manual

On a practical note, main components wear out much faster, so I would rather buy new than jump ratty old main risers.
Also, it might be simpler to just sell an old main with its old risers.
Since main risers are similar - from most manufacturers - they are often interchangeable from one harness to the next. We used to do that all the time with used gear passing through the loft at Square One.
If you get confused, just ask your local rigger to explain the finer points of RSL compatibility.

A sad point is that skydivers often sell old mains with old main d-bags, which are rarely compatible with the new container.

[CygnusX-1 42]

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fabric and lines (usually sewn together)

LMAO

Next time I buy a canopy from PD, I'll be sure to ask if it will be sewn together. Or if I will get the panels with "some assembly required."

[JohnRich 4]

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Suck it up, cupcake, you're out $68. Considering the price of a new rig, that's pocket change. Move on.

so it's ok to screw someone, as long as it's for a small amount ?
Thank you for that lesson in business.

That's not what I said.

What I said was that you're out $68, and have no chance of getting it back, so you should just accept this small loss, not fret over it or make a big deal about it, and move on with your life.

[likestojump 3]

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Quote

Quote

Suck it up, cupcake, you're out $68. Considering the price of a new rig, that's pocket change. Move on.

so it's ok to screw someone, as long as it's for a small amount ?
Thank you for that lesson in business.

That's not what I said.

What I said was that you're out $68, and have no chance of getting it back, so you should just accept this small loss, not fret over it or make a big deal about it, and move on with your life.

how can you call it a small loss if you don't know how much the OP paid for their gear ? What if the container cost them $200, and now they have to pony up 34% more for parts that should have been included ?

How do you now they have no chance of getting it back ?

More than anything else, his post ended with an open-ended question "So my question is what would you do in this situation?"

You just barged in and told him to stop whining. Not too useful.