Vector and Sigma Retrofit

[chutingstar 1]

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Does anyone know if the retro fit kit requires a master rigger (I'm assuming to install a second grommet on flap 1 and doing the sewing on the RSL lanyard)?

Or does the kit stage the reserve in a different way or using only the existing grommets?

I'd call them but figure they're swamped with communication and thought someone here might know.

Thanks,
Ben

UPT just posted this with more info.

http://uptvector.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=160

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[fergs 0]

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Is it just me or is the use of the locking loop and bridle on the reserve reminiscent of the way mains used to be secured in the pack tray when squares first came out?

Scott,

Nah. If my fading memory serves me correctly, we used a similar locking loop for the early square reserves - although it didn't go through the whole deployment bag. But it did go through a grommit on one of the inner flaps and we'd make a needle fold in the bridle. Had the same affect as this new UPT mod - ensuring the reserve bag stayed secured in the container til the bridle was all out and dragging. We stopped using the locking needle stow when reserve conmtainers bacame more shaped and held the bag in due to their snug "overlapping" design.

Ciao,

fergs

The one I am referring to was on the main and was a strap of webbing sewn to the center of the tray of the container which wrapped around the bag and held closed, retaining the bag, with a loop and grommet stow locked by the bridle. At any rate, it's interesting to see how some of the old ideas can become the new solutions to todays issues.

Scott,

Wow we must both be very old! You are quite correct and describe what I had with my first square canopy. That was before the slider came into being. The miles of reefing line was stowed atop the deployment bag and it had a positive locking system to ensure all the reefing line was out before allowing the bag to leave the container.

Well done and I applaud your memory.

Blue Skies,

fergs
BMCI-8

[skydiverek 56]

Well, why doesn't the fix apply to Javelins equiped with Skyhook??? Any info on this?

[peregrinerose 0]

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Well, why doesn't the fix apply to Javelins equiped with Skyhook??? Any info on this?

I emailed Sunpath about it. The email I got back was really hard to understand, very vague and not remotely coherent sentences. The gist was that they are not issuing anything right now, they are doing testing, they may or may not have a statement to make sometime next week, at least that's what I got from the gibberish-ish email

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[slotperfect 7]

I edited the original thread to include the link.

Arrive Safely

John

[jcbfly 1]

I called Sun Path and talked with one of their riggers a few days ago. I was told that Sun Path is currently investigating this situation and that there are no product improvements or AD's for Skyhook equipped Javelins at this time.

So for now at least, Skyhook equipped Javelins are good to go.

[RIGGER 0]

It is a full Master Rigger modification > Split Loop & the Grommet setting on reserve container # 1 flap.

The work should be write & sign on the reserve data card.

Be Safe !!!

[chutingstar 1]

Just an update/FYI on the conversion kits.

I spoke with UPT on last Tuesday and had several of the kits delivered my loft on Thursday for just the price of shipping. They are turning these around very fast. Very good news for those who want the mod done immediately.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[riggerpaul 1]

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It is a full Master Rigger modification > Split Loop & the Grommet setting on reserve container # 1 flap.

The work should be write & sign on the reserve data card.

Be Safe !!!

Is it allowed for the manufacturer to say who is required to do the work?

I ask because the manufacturer's instructions say either a senior or a master may do the work.

Of course, I don't have the equipment required to set a SS grommet, so it is sort of moot to me.

[tdog 0]

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I ask because the manufacturer's instructions say either a senior or a master may do the work. .

Actually, splitting the RSL says "Master Rigger". Adding the grommet and bungee says "Senior Rigger." They are two different kits sent with different instructions.


I think the manufacture is the best authority to determine if the retrofit is senior or master rigger work as they are determining how the change will effect the entire system.


After seeing the kits with my own two eyes and reading the instructions, I think RWS appropriately quantified the skill required for the two mods.

Setting a new grommet is no more complex than repairing and reinforcing an old grommet, which is tested as part of the senior rigger exam.

[erdnarob 1]

Hi Mike, yes it takes a master rigger to do the retrofit since that invloves using a sewing machine. Your pictures concerning the addition of a yellow loop for the Collins lanyard are for the Sigma system only. The only difference for the sport Vector retrofit loop is that the yellow loop is more narrow than the one for the Sigma in order to match the existing RSL.
I was at UPT Vector this past Thursday and got both the retrofits for the Sigma and the sport Vector.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[RIGGER 0]

That was changed by UPT - it is not logic to split the mod. between a Master Rigger for the split loop & the grommet for a Senior Rigger.

Setting a grommet in the reserve container is a Major repair by all means - it should be set right, tight & with the right tools - I would say the same for the main container even it is only "main".

Lifes were taken by wrong set grommets.

Think about it.

Be Safe !!!

[RIGGER 0]

There are more differences:

1.Sigma Split loop: 7/8" Ty.3 without velcro.

2.V3 Sport & Student (SE): 9/16" Ty.1 with sewn Hook velcro on it to replace the older velcro on the V3 lanyard.

Sewing: setting the split GOLD loop on the Sigma or V3's is different - see the instructions.

Tips For the Vector 3 Sport & Student Lanyard mod.:

1.Mark the ends of the lanyard velcro at BOTH sides: loop side & Shackle side - before unpicking the stitches.

2.Removing the old velcro from the RSL lanyard - unpick the 301 stitches on the Hook velcro side for not damaging the 9/16" Ty.1 lanyard.

3.The V3 have 2 sizes of lanyards:
* Standart yoke - 16" long lanyard.
* Extended yoke (+1) - 18.5" lanyard.

4.The Gold split loop kit match BOTH sizes BUT on the shorter lanyard the Hook velcro will have to be cut off after sewing to match the Shackle side mark was made.

5.It might be that on the Longer lanyard some velcro will have to be cut off as well.

6.Hook Velcro Cut Off should be after finishing the new 301 sewing arount the 4 legs or when getting very close to the Shackle side mark - doing it before might end with a shorter velcro for the shrink effect.

*** Do not cut too close to the seam - see the original spec.

#0 SS Grommet setting at ALL V3 / Sigma:

REMOVE the AAD cutter from the #1 flap before setting.

Master Rigger work for all the mod. including the grommet setting.

Packing tips:

1.Keep the 1" differences between the Cypres closing loop & the Staging Loop which should be shorter by 1" - see the instructions.

*** If changing the Cypres loop during the packing process - take care to re-measured the difference between the NEW Cypres loop & the Staging loop.

2.Keep each loop to the original side by the grommet setting to eliminate Loops Twists or Loops Crossing.

3.When pulling both loops through the #2 center grommet in the V3 / Sigma free bag take care NO Reserve canopy fabric is pulled OUT or in between the loops & grommet.

4.Before closing flap #1 take care NO canopy fabric is trapped between the #2 Free Bag grommet & the AAD cutter or the #0 SS grommet on #1 flap.

5.Staging Loop hold by the Free Bag BRIDLE - it must be done by the instructions to insure proper tension & easy release when needed.

*** These packing instructions are a NEW process in the V3 / Sigma packing process - take care for the details.

Safe Rigging !!!

[RIGGER 0]

***

2.V3 Sport & Student (SE): 9/16" Ty.1 with sewn Hook velcro on it to replace the older velcro on the V3 lanyard.

3.The V3 have 2 sizes of lanyards:
* Standart yoke - 16" long lanyard.
* Extended yoke (+1) - 18.5" lanyard.

4.The Gold split loop kit match BOTH sizes BUT on the shorter lanyard the Hook velcro will have to be cut off after sewing to match the Shackle side mark was made.
-----------------------------------------------------------
*** To correct # 2 above:

The V3 Gold split loop is made of 1/2" Ty.4

*** To correct the #4 above regarding the V3 Sports & Student:

There are 2 sizes of the GOLD split loop to match the different sizes of the RSL lanyard.

Each split loop have a different length of Hook velcro to match the specific RSL lanyard length.

When asking for kits be aware of the Yoke size as on the TSO lable on the reserve card pocket - rigs with spacer foam in the bottom of the back pad others in the pocket on the inside of the Left side MLW pad.

It will show 2 digits like MLW 17" (standart) or 3 digits like MLW 17" +1 (extended yoke) when ordering ask by the p/n:

RSL-V3-STD-SPLIT for 16" long RSL lanyard

RSL-V3-EXT-SPLIT for 18.5" RSL lanyard

I hope that helps.

Safe Rigging !!!

[skydivebb 0]

After speaking with UPT it was my understanding that all mods were Mater Rigger work.

Sunpath has said in a conversation to me that their design is not affected because of the designa dn the distribution of weight through the RSL/Collins lanyard. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet but thats what they told me.

[riggerpaul 1]

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That was changed by UPT - it is not logic to split the mod. between a Master Rigger for the split loop & the grommet for a Senior Rigger.

Setting a grommet in the reserve container is a Major repair by all means - it should be set right, tight & with the right tools - I would say the same for the main container even it is only "main".

Lifes were taken by wrong set grommets.

Think about it.

Be Safe !!!

Yes, I understand that UPT has changed their statements regarding who may do the work.

To be sure, I did not mean to argue. I asked only because what UPT had said and what you had said were in conflict.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

I have a sport rig and am trying to figure out what this means for me. Is this retrofit only important on rigs that have an AAD? From the reading I did on the UPT website it looks like it was designed to control staging should you have a low pull causing an AAD fire. Is it still something I should get even though I don't use an AAD? Please forgive my ignorance as I don't know much about the technical side of gear. I am curious though because I would like to have a better understanding of all my gear.

[JerryBaumchen 1,063]

Hi skittles,

I would strongly recommend that you get this change completed.

1. It will keep your rig at a 'state of the art' condition. This will help in any future thoughts of selling it.

2. I believe that the kits are free NOW. May not be free in the future.

Your choice, roll the dice & see what comes up,

JerryBaumchen

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

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Hi skittles,

I would strongly recommend that you get this change completed.

1. It will keep your rig at a 'state of the art' condition. This will help in any future thoughts of selling it.

2. I believe that the kits are free NOW. May not be free in the future.

Your choice, roll the dice & see what comes up,

JerryBaumchen

Ah yes, you most definately did not see the photos of my rig in the post your micron thread.

Even if I wanted to sell this thing, there ain't a soul that would wanna buy it. (refer to the attached photo)

Although I guess since I may get an AAD someday I should probably get the mod. thanks for the advice.

[masterrigger1 2]

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I think the manufacture is the best authority to determine if the retrofit is senior or master rigger work as they are determining how the change will effect the entire system.

It is the FAA that sets that precident, not the manufacturer.
A manufacturer cannot simply "upgrade" a riggers certificate by stating that senior rigger may do master rigger work.

Please remember that any major repair, modificaton, or alteration is Master Rigger work only.

....For mains no authorization is needed.

....For certificated equipment, authorization from the manufacturer, the FAA, or both is needed.

This is the same material that I just had to go over with several students in the last 10 days.


BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[tdog 0]

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A manufacturer cannot simply "upgrade" a riggers certificate by stating that senior rigger may do master rigger work.

I fully agree with you on that point.

Yet again (we do this a lot here, you and I) - you took something I said and twisted it to something I did not mean. It might be my fault for not being clear enough.

I never said the manufacture could upgrade anything. I meant to say that the manufacture has knowledge about their equipment that is superior to knowledge any one of us has. They also can read the FAA guidelines and talk with FAA officials to determine how their work instructions should be carried out. So they are a good authority, probably the best authority, to publish who can do what in regards to specific work instructions, considering they designed the system and the procedures for working on that system.

Of course they could be wrong. But even if they are, I bet following their advice will give a lot of credibility in a court of law. Certainly more credibility than anyone that does not wear the manufacture hat to work every morning.

Hence, I am going to continue to read the manufacturer's instructions and follow them. If you believe UPT mispublished any instructions that say a master or senior riggers can do certain procedures, please contact them asking for an immediate revision to those documents.

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This is the same material that I just had to go over with several students in the last 10 days.

Thanks for implying I am a student! I am always learning and picking up new things. Knowing I would get a post out of you in this thread by what I said - I had already called a few people with a lot of creditability for their opinions.

[erdnarob 1]

Many thanks Shlomo. As ususal your post provides a lot of details on these modifications. But for the readers benefit, tapes and loops are already cut to specifications. The master rigger has to do the assembly following the instructions provided with the mod kits, one for the staging loop (bungee cord) and one for the Collins lanyard yellow loop to be added. UPT Vector web site shows detailed instructions as well.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[RIGGER 0]

Thanks for that.

I just try to make riggers & owners aware of some technical points.

Not many are aware of the 2 size of the V3 RSL lanyards according to the V3 yoke size.

For now UPT is sending out 2 sizes of split loop based on the rig needs it.

It will be changed to 1 split loop with the longer velcro so 1 size will match both lanyards BUT when sewn on the 16" long RSL lanyard the extra amount of the velcro will have to be cut off when reaching the shackle side mark - see my early posts.

For now when ordering these kits be aware what you order for.

UPT have a great service with the kits - thanks UPT !!!

See you at PIA 09 ?

Be Safe !!!

[RIGGER 0]

Thanks.

You doing well - UPT did said S.rigger at first time on the grommet setting - it was changed later.

I said Master Rigger for the grommet after checking the change with UPT.

See you at PIA 09 ?

Cheers

[masterrigger1 2]

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never said the manufacture could upgrade anything. I meant to say that the manufacture has knowledge about their equipment that is superior to knowledge any one of us has. They also can read the FAA guidelines and talk with FAA officials to determine how their work instructions should be carried out. So they are a good authority, probably the best authority, to publish who can do what in regards to specific work instructions, considering they designed the system and the procedures for working on that system.

No,you did not come out right and state that exact sentence.
By stating that the manufacturer probably has the best insight regarding how to classify a certain repair does mean the exact thing though.
At least that is how I read it.


Of course they could be wrong. But even if they are, I bet following their advice will give a lot of credibility in a court of law. Certainly more credibility than anyone that does not wear the manufacture hat to work every morning.

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You think more than the FAA?

Hence, I am going to continue to read the manufacturer's instructions and follow them. If you believe UPT mispublished any instructions that say a master or senior riggers can do certain procedures, please contact them asking for an immediate revision to those documents.

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One of my past students,now a senior rigger, did just that. They changed the protocol after his phone call.

Thanks for implying I am a student! I am always learning and picking up new things. Knowing I would get a post out of you in this thread by what I said - I had already called a few people with a lot of creditability for their opinions.
***

Well I never implied that you were a student.
The fact is that we all are. Everyday!
But now that you bring it up, I do try to teach people here to improve their knowledge of rigging and anything related to it.

Cheers,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com