Re: [billvon] Fatality - Z-Hills, FL - 26 December 2008

[happythoughts 0]

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However, serious head injuries are not as simple as you mention above.

In this case, his Z1 was split open. That is a pretty
significant impact. The previous poster regarded
helmets as only valuable during nominal blows.

His head is quite a bit less durable than the helmet.
If he had not been wearing the helmet, it would
have been his head that was split open instead.
That is almost assured to be fatal.

From my view, the helmet saved his life. No question.

As far as other types of injuries, you can only do so much.

I used to have this helmet argument with Treetop all
the time. He would throw in every type of accidents
to find any exception (for the primary purpose of just
arguing).

Yep, we can't make a helmet that will take every shock
and save your life.

In the required Florida motorcycle class, they tell you
bluntly that at speeds over 100mph, the helmet will
not save you. It was stated that, in most of the cases
over 100mph, the rider is decapitated.
So, regardless of design, motorcycle helmets only do so much also.

However, the value of helmets can't be minimized when I have
personally seen them totally destroyed with force that was guaranteed to kill someone.

No, they aren't just for little swipes, as was stated.
In big impacts, they have saved many friends.

[jraf 0]

Bill is entirely right. Skydiving helments are not unlike military brain buckets in their functionality. A military helmet is not designed to withstand a direct hit from a sniper bullet, but will stop almost any kind of shrapnel.

Now one can argue about the effect of impact on Sky's skull as he is rather thick headed (sorry Sky my dear old friend I could not help my self) but without any doubt the force of impact that caused so much damage to a Z1 would have made Sky look even less attractive than he is right now. The probability is that the Z1 saved his life.

My Bonehead Bombardier has a smudge of Cessna rear stabilizer paint on it. That were the entire consequences to me - If I were no wearing it a direct impact to the rear of the head would have at least knocked me unconcious.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[erdnarob 1]

Your Bonehead helmet is made of carbon fiber and fiberglass. No comparison with the Z1 from Parasports. Yours is stronger and lighter.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[hcsvader 1]

So, I think this is a pretty obvious question that I have never seen ansewered.

Why is there no skydiving specific, full faced helmet, that offers similar impact protection to that of something like the pro-tech.

Pro-tech seems to be the common helmet that most people recommend when asked about the best impact protection.

Maybe a manufacturer can explain this. Is there no demand for it? Would the cost be too high?

It just dose not seem right that we dont have this option...

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[jraf 0]

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Your Bonehead helmet is made of carbon fiber and fiberglass. No comparison with the Z1 from Parasports. Yours is stronger and lighter.

I know, that is why I chose it. BTW it is my original brain bucket, and I will stick with it. It is great for both flat flying and freeflying.

jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

[Remster 24]

A strong shell may not be the best material to absorb an impact.

Remster

[billvon 2,400]

>Why is there no skydiving specific, full faced helmet, that offers similar
>impact protection to that of something like the pro-tech.

There is certainly no skydiving-specific helmet manufacturer that _claims_ that. A commonly held opinion is that if a manufacturer designs a helmet to be safe, tests it to a certain standard to ensure it (say, one of the Snell standards, although that's not a skydiving standard) and then markets it as a safe helmet - they will open themselves up to liability when a jumper uses such a helmet but then dies during a collision. The common wisdom is that the statement "this helmet serves no protective function" helps shield manufacturers from lawsuits.

[edjackson 0]

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So, I think this is a pretty obvious question that I have never seen ansewered.

Why is there no skydiving specific, full faced helmet, that offers similar impact protection to that of something like the pro-tech.

Pro-tech seems to be the common helmet that most people recommend when asked about the best impact protection.

Maybe a manufacturer can explain this. Is there no demand for it? Would the cost be too high?

It just dose not seem right that we dont have this option...

Good point.
Do the protech helmets have any impact testing or rating?
I still jump one. It helped allot during a plane crash in Tennessee. When the plane crashed I was thrown backward and hit the occipital area of the head. I had a huge bruise even with the protech. The full face helmets are higher up and do not cover that area of the skull.

[pilotdave 0]

http://www.pro-tec.net/skate/fullcut/index.html

"Not Certified: (These helmets use 2-stage foam that does not meet certification standards and should only be used for skating)"

Apparently the "standard" protec isn't certified at all. Maybe it used to be and the standards have been upped? Protec makes a LOT of types of helmets. Some are certified (for bicycle use or water sports use, etc) and others are not certified at all (for sports that don't require certified helmets like skateboarding and skydiving).

Personally, certification doesn't matter to me. I don't know what the requirements are. Anybody have a copy of ASTM 2040, CE EN 1077, CPSC 1203, ASTM 1447, or CE 1078? Those are some of the standards that various protec helmets are certified to.

I would love to see some testing of skydiving helmets. But before you can test a helmet, you need to decide what impacts you're testing it to handle. Would be nice to see how skydiving helmets compare. It's easy to say that a carbon fiber helmet is better than a plastic helmet, but without testing, it's only a guess. The exact design of the helmet plays a huge role in the protection a helmet offers. It's more than just materials. Bolts, rivets, hinges, etc can concentrate impacts and might make a helmet worse than nothing at all if the wearer gets hit in just the right spot.

Dave

[gjhdiver 0]

It's OK. It was Sky. He got hit in his head.

That's several feet from his brain.

[azureriders 0]

I dont think it changes the point of your discusion, but as I said HERE, Sky was not wearing a full face helmet on this jump.

[hcsvader 1]

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A strong shell may not be the best material to absorb an impact.

could you explain this further please.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[hcsvader 1]

So what level of protection does everyone expect from the helmet that you choose to wear?

I would also be interested in hearing of incidents or scenarios where the type of helmet used affected the outcome. Both positive and negative.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[porpoishead 5]

sup joe.

Parasport Italia makes an open face model of the Z1 as well as a fullface.

the open face model is the Z1 evo. used to be one in manifest on the rack above the shirts think its still there.



to vader:

a super strong shell is not going to give easily. granted initially it will absorb the force of an impact and spread the energy out instead of concentrating in one area.

a softer shell might absorb the initial impact spread some energy then collapse or crumple dispersing the energy even further.

in both scenarios your brain is still going to slam into the side of your skull. less energy in this case is better than more for obvious reasons.

generally speaking this would apply mostly to blunt impacts anything otherwise sharp or that penetrates the shell with little resistance.. then all bets are off.


edited to add

I wear a carbon fiber bucket. its light and super strong. why?? because planes are made from aluminum materials that can become really sharp when bent up or sheared.

otherwise for just blunt impacts i would prefer to wear a helmet with similar properties to a protec.

cant wear both. I don't believe there is one helmet that is optimum for every scenario. some excel in areas where others fail miserably

pick your poison

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[azureriders 0]

Quote

Parasport Italia makes an open face model of the Z1 as well as a fullface.

the open face model is the Z1 evo

yep, they sure do. There have however been several comments in multiple threads suggesting Sky was (or normally was) wearing a full face helmet. I do not know what he normally wears, but I do know he had an open face on the jump in question.

I really don't see where that changes much, as this is not a discusion of full face vs open face, but it might be something that someone wanted to know.

[shropshire 0]

In the olden days, we used to wear m/c helmets (I wore a Bell) - they offered real protection but at the cost of weight and we really don't want that on our heads at opening time.... but with modern materials, I don't think that we need to put up with inferior, expensive products anymore.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[porpoishead 5]

exactly you always got some downside for any application.
weight, field of view, range of motion.

gotta give up something to gain something else.

don't know about the cheap part bro they aren't exactly giving away skydiving helmets...don't know about protec prices now, back in my skatebording days they were around $30

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[shropshire 0]

Hi, I meant that the skydive helmets were expensive and inferior.

Protect aren't always so cheap either - I just bought a Ski Protect and it was about £70 - still way cheaper than my 2K Composites skydive lid Camera holder

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Remster 24]

Quote

Quote

A strong shell may not be the best material to absorb an impact.

could you explain this further please.

Most modern helmets (I'm not talking skydiving helmets, but rather cycling or motocycling helmets) are designed, a bit like cars are now too, to absorb and dissipate impacts. The outer shell is there to provide some level of protection, but it mostly there to keep the helmet together more than anything. If you have a very rigid shell, it wont break. Breaking dissipates energy, as opposed to letting it pass through.

Remster

[riggerrob 558]

Why is there no skydiving specific, full faced helmet, that offers similar impact protection to that of something like the pro-tech.

Pro-tech seems to be the common helmet that most people recommend when asked about the best impact protection.

Maybe a manufacturer can explain this. Is there no demand for it? Would the cost be too high?

.......................................................................

Pro-Tecs are popular because they are inexpensive.
Inexpensive because millions are made for other sports.
No skydiving-specific helmet will ever be as inexpensive as a Pro-Tec because of short production runs.

[riggerrob 558]

Why is there no skydiving specific, full faced helmet, that offers similar impact protection to that of something like the pro-tech.

.........................................................................

Pro-Tecs are "okay" at absorbing impact.

A Pro-Tec kept me alive during a recent airplane wreck.
Now the Protec is scrap ... 'cus of a collapsed foam liner.
Same as motorcycle helmets, the foam liner in Pro-Tecs are a sacrificial layer designed to absorb impact better than the brain.
Much better foam liners are available from Oregon Aero. OA also sells specialized, impact-absorbing, foam liners for full-face helmets.

[riggerrob 558]

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A strong shell may not be the best material to absorb an impact.

..................................................................

Correct.
We are talking two separate layers of protection.
A shell's primary role is to prevent penetration. Carbon fiber shells prevent most penetrations while soft shells do little more than prevent cosmetic scratches.

If you want to absorb impact, you need several layers of tailored foam, that collapses gradually during impact.

[hcsvader 1]

Thanks RiggerRob!

This is exactly the kind of info I am looking for.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Rob,

Quote

Much better foam liners are available from Oregon Aero.

For those who might want to know:

Oregon Aero
34020 Skyway Drive
Scappoose, OR 97056

1-800-888-6910
503-543-7399

www.oregonaero.com

I would not recommend using their email address; they do not seem to monitor it that much ( IMO ).

JerryBaumchen

[denete 2]

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A shell's primary role is to prevent penetration. Carbon fiber shells prevent most penetrations while soft shells do little more than prevent cosmetic scratches.

Kevlar or a Kevlar/CF hybrid would be nice. Much stronger than CF in compression.

Quote

If you want to absorb impact, you need several layers of tailored foam, that collapses gradually during impact.

Essentially the same idea behind an auto air-bag? Why not foam/air cells much like those inside football helmets. They could be designed to "fail" at a certain pressure level and decelerate the head, albeit only for 1 inch.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)