Ron 7 #26 June 7, 2005 QuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. A guy is gonna get better more thorough intruction b/c he is a guy, an attractive girl, maybe not always the case, but flirting often takes the place of a thorough education. Girls get more attention...That means more instruction. Jumpers SO's often do get short courses...But knowing that...What do you do now?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eeneR 1 #27 June 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuotemaybe had I not fallen into the same thing that so many other attractive girls do in this sport ( I dont think I have to explain this) things would be different... I'm kinda slow sometimes, please explain this to me. What "thing" did you fall into? Being an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. A guy is gonna get better more thorough intruction b/c he is a guy, an attractive girl, maybe not always the case, but flirting often takes the place of a thorough education. I know of SEVERAL girls who have expierenced this, and mine was doubly bad b/c I am attractive and I b/c I was a jumpers wife.... Ok...Im sorry but YOU LET THAT HAPPEN... Im not a model but im sure as hell not ugly. I asked many many questions during FJC and to this day still think proactivly. This is what I mean by taking responsibility for yourself. You must not have taken the risk seriously then, cause I know I did, and wanted to learn everything I could about how to be safe. Never assume people will tell you everything...they wont. I do not and will not ever accept that excuse...bullshit. Get over yourself and start using your brain instead of your "attractivness" This shit angers me. And women wonder why we get treated as though we are stupid. She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway." eeneR TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #28 June 7, 2005 QuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. As an instructor I find your theory offensive. I also know that every one of the other instructors (TI, AFF-I, Coaches, SL/IAD) would also find this incredibly offensive! Get some more time in the sport, learn how real instructors behave and conduct themselves with their students.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #29 June 7, 2005 I'm sorry you got hurt, and I'm sorry the comments on here are rubbing you the wrong way, but please hear me out. QuoteThere goes another person, WHO DOESNT know me, comenting on MY ATTITUDE... this cracks me up... A large part of your attitude comes through in your posts online. This is true for any poster. The attitude that I (and others) are picking up on is reluctance to admit your own blame. You spent a gigantic paragraph blaming others for your mistakes on a case by case basis. QuoteJumping out of a plane is not something we are naturally born with the knowledge to save our asses, and unless were told by those who know (just in case you didnt know, its not the new jumpers who know) how the fuck are we supposed to know? Were you taught to flare? Were you taught to not land on taxiways? I have seen many people ask why you landed on a taxiway and didn't flare, and I have not seen you respond to one of them. I have seen defense after defense after defense as to how competent you were to be jumping whatever gear setup you were, and as to how other jumpers misled you. More important even than the fact that you haven't tried to explain your actions, is that you haven't even commented on them. I have yet to see you even talk about the jump itself. Instead of a paragraph of blame placing, just say this one little sentence - "I landed on a taxiway and didn't flare". If you can get that far, the next step is to ask yourself why. The only learned lesson you've posted so far is "never jump barefoot no matter what", which is honestly not the right thing to be focusing on.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #30 June 7, 2005 QuoteJumping out of a plane is not something we are naturally born with the knowledge to save our asses, and unless were told by those who know (just in case you didnt know, its not the new jumpers who know) how the fuck are we supposed to know? What EXACTLY did you not know? I'm assuming you know that you need to flare to land safely since you have more than 1 jump. Did your husband know you were jumping barefoot? Do you see alot of people land on the tarmac? So no one ever told you that wouldn't be a good idea? JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justaflygirl 0 #31 June 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes you might have gotten a crappy FJC...But how did it take you 40 jumps to realize you don't know a pattern? I mean you have to land, so it would amke sense that there is a technique to it. If you didn't know it, why didn't you ask? because nobody ever told me I was doing anything wrong, I was landing like I always had. So how did I know there was something else I should be doing? QuoteQuestion: Who told you to jump barefoot? Where did you get the idea? I nhardly ever wear shoes in my other life, and I have heard alot of people here and at the dz talking about and or doing it QuoteI mean the flare is about as basic as it gets. I froze when I realized I was going land on the taxi way, having ground fixation and not flaring has been one of my bigger problems in the past, but the last 15 or so jumps, it hasnt been a problem, my landings were spot on Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #32 June 7, 2005 You need to take responsibility for yourself in this sport, you can't blame your lack of knowledge all on other people. It sounds like you're making excuses for not being more proactive in the learning process. Its not up to everyone else to explicitly tell you about each and everyone safety issue, you will sometimes need to go seek out information and do some reading and studying on the sport on your own, and without prompting from others. Dave made a good point, go devour the SIM, then read all the information from the manufacturers whose gear you jump, then go read each article in parachutist & skydiving mag, then look to other countries like Australia for their published information on all things skydiving, then go read some of the rigging material, poynters manuals... My first jump course was actually way more casual than yours. I could go into greater detail, but I don't want to get anyone in trouble. Even though I probably didn't have the best start to the sport, I took it upon myself to make sure that when I came back to the DZ to do my first jump, I asked questions about everything I was unsure of. I also realized very quickly (from a simple web search) that there was a wealth of resources out there on skydiving, and starting with the SIM I read every bit of information I could get my hands on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the more you know about skydiving, the safer you will be. You definitely need iniative in this sport to continue learning after your student program is over, people who don't go out there and try to increase their knowledge are just asking for it. Quotemaybe had I not fallen into the same thing that so many other attractive girls do in this sport ( I dont think I have to explain this) things would be different... hmmm... -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amanduh 0 #33 June 7, 2005 Quoteand getting off of DZ.com, you might find the real world of skydiving a little more fun and has less bullshit. Couldn't have said it better myself. I'll add a little more as well if I may.. Rules I was taught in Skydive: 1 - Don't die 2 - No matter how hard you try, you cannot fit the planet up your ass. Now, with the basics laid out on the line...remember this In skydiving, you learn from your mistakes. You just hope those mistakes don't kill ya. Good luck with however you decide to deal with this. QuoteI mean the flare is about as basic as it gets. Agreed..that is another rule to skydiving I was taught: Flaring is not optional. Just so you know....like someone previously stated..It is not up to ANYONE but yourself to get the proper training. ASK questions, trust me..i drive people nuts because I continuously ask questions. I might get a stupid answer sometimes..but then I go on to the next..and draw my own conclusion at times. *Note...one thing that REALLY shows a lot about ya is that you took the answer page because you had taken "open book" tests before or whatever..girl..logic would tell you that you are jumping out of a plane and that you really need to KNOW what you are learning...not copy it....blame yourself for that one..no one else. Quoteand mine was doubly bad b/c I am attractive and I b/c I was a jumpers wife.... Will someone please pass me the bucket..I'm not feeling so well anymore.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #34 June 7, 2005 QuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. A guy is gonna get better more thorough intruction b/c he is a guy, an attractive girl, maybe not always the case, but flirting often takes the place of a thorough education. I know of SEVERAL girls who have expierenced this, and mine was doubly bad b/c I am attractive and I b/c I was a jumpers wife.... When I was a lab instructor in college I gave the cute girls BETTER instruction. I'd do the same if I was a skydiving instructor probably. (NOT implying I'd half-ass it with the dudes) www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpergirl 0 #35 June 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. A guy is gonna get better more thorough intruction b/c he is a guy, an attractive girl, maybe not always the case, but flirting often takes the place of a thorough education. Girls get more attention...That means more instruction. Ron, I agree with A LOT of what you say. You should know that just because you know me. However, I totally disagree with that one. You know I started jumping when I was 16. You know I was 1 of, oh, maybe 5 girls in the state. You know what I looked like then. You don't know that I didn't realize what I DIDN'T know until I got out of that state, away from the guys I was jumping with, and started going to other drop zones alone. It took a couple of years for me to realize that I was just a pretty girl that the guys wanted to jump with because I was 17 or 18. I never learned to spot. I never learned the lines on my canopy. I never learned how to pack. I finally did learn that I needed to know those things so I asked. I still ask questions. I know my instructor had a crush on me. I know my then-boyfriend had a HUGE ego and put me through AFF so I'd be there at the dz with him. Looking back now, I would have never started jumping if I would have known the training was half-assed. Granted, I did learn a lot. Most of the important stuff I have picked up along the way. And yes, I have sat in on 3 different FJC. I was scared when I realized what I had missed the first time around. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #36 June 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. A guy is gonna get better more thorough intruction b/c he is a guy, an attractive girl, maybe not always the case, but flirting often takes the place of a thorough education. Girls get more attention...That means more instruction. Jumpers SO's often do get short courses...But knowing that...What do you do now? Ron is quite right with this one. If anything you should be overwhelmed with information. JudyBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bbarnhouse 0 #37 June 7, 2005 QuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. A guy is gonna get better more thorough intruction b/c he is a guy, an attractive girl, maybe not always the case, but flirting often takes the place of a thorough education. I know of SEVERAL girls who have expierenced this, and mine was doubly bad b/c I am attractive and I b/c I was a jumpers wife.... Okay I am sorry I just don't buy into that load. There are lots of beautiful, accomplished women in the sport who went through AFF just like you. Several are skydivers wives...just like you. Several may have been flirted with...just like you. Instructors (at least the ones I know) treat everyone the same when it comes to teaching. NO exceptions. Granted that flirting may occur at some point, but when it gets right down to it they aren't going to pass someone just because they are cute. Skydiving is more dangerous than it is forgiving. It is for each and every one of us to ask the right questions. It is OUR responsibility to ask, ours alone to keep ourselves safe, and hopefully we don't present a danger to our fellow skydivers. Fact is, until people LISTEN to those that have managed to survive several thousands of skydives...it will just be more of the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
foxyroxtail 0 #38 June 7, 2005 QuoteQuote With your attitude, your probably safer on the ground. There goes another person, WHO DOESNT know me, comenting on MY ATTITUDE... this cracks me up... call me stupid, but I think I have a right to be pissed off. Maybe a better option would just quit DZ.com for a while. You complain about getting it from people who don't know you, but you are the one who signed up for the forum then put it out there, you joined this place, where we know each other, even we really don't. Skydiving is a community and an activity, DZ.com is a community and an activity, and sometimes they are even related. The fact that most of this whole thing has been in Bonfire, well, I think that pretty much explains it. If you want a skydiving discussion, there is a forum for it. If you want safety and training, there is a forum for it. If you want idle chatter, blame, rumors, gossip, jokes and ass chewing - well Bonfire would maybe be the place. Keep your gear, turn off your computer, heal up, study, read, and sign up for some classes or coaching that will get you where you want to be. If you want to get there. But using a bunch of posts on DZ.com and blaming the people here as a reason to quit is cop-out in my book. Pam ________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyyhi 0 #39 June 7, 2005 I gotta agree with Ron on this. If you feel your training was not complete and you don't have all the information, then go get some more. Sit in on another FJC and listen. Talk to canopy instructors and listen. Ask questions like "what can I do to be better at. . . ." and then LISTEN. Some people have given you good advice. All you are doing is getting pissed off and not listening. . . And as far as the girl thing goes. . .I have NEVER had any trouble in this sport because I am a girl. So I am not quite understanding what you are saying there. . .________________________________________ Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ FGF #6 Darcy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaoskitty 0 #40 June 7, 2005 OMG... that is so LAME! You didn't get good instruction because you're pretty?? Hey here is an idea.. DONT FLIRT BACK. Say something like "Hey, this is important to me, lets focus on it." good grief. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #41 June 7, 2005 QuoteI froze when I realized I was going land on the taxi way, having ground fixation and not flaring has been one of my bigger problems in the past, but the last 15 or so jumps, it hasnt been a problem, my landings were spot on. Awesome! You just identified the first step towards avoiding this in the future. Apparently you have had problems flaring in the past, but in a familiar environment (over the big grass landing area) you managed to overcome these problems. Then you took it to the airway and the new element of having asphalt under you overloaded your senses in such a way that old problems resurfaced. That is nothing to be ashamed off. It happens to everybody. The only problem is that you were unfortunate enough to be barefoot. But here too, you already acknowledged that it wasn't the smartest choice you could have made, so another problem has been identified. And henceforth, two lessons have been learned. Great job! Now close your browser. Go have a beer. Then come back for a skydive when your feet are healed. Try wearing a brand new pair of Hanwags. I swear by them for all my base jumps, but have actually started using them for my skydives as well. Jaap Edited for spelling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #42 June 7, 2005 Jeez. You got off light. Questions I don't see you asking are: "What could you have done differently?" "What mistakes did I make?" "What did I not know at the time?" Each unanswered question you have is a risk factor. I don't know shit about jumping. But I learned more without a jump in the last two years than I did when I was jumping. Why? I grounded myself. Too many unanswered questions. I had no idea how close I was to killing myself on a couple of occassions. No, not dying. Killing myself. The low turn on jump 4 after a long spot. The short spot on jump 16. Funny as hell, that jump was. It didn't scare the piss outta me until that night. Your FJC was half-assed. How do you know? You don't unless some instructors tell you. Your AFF jumps were spot on. How do you know that? You don't unless your instructors tell you. Your landing pattern via radio didn't make sense. Did you say, "Hey. This doesn't make sense" any time before jump 40? Is confusion a good thing considering the deadly consequences of it? Some fellow jumpers told you to stay grounded because it was too windy. It's nice that they looked out for you, but shouldn't you be the first person to make that call? It was windy. What was the wind speed? Frankly, I think you will make an exceedingly safe jumper now. You know what questions need to be asked and answered, and it only cost you toenails and some meat off of your feet. If you feel railed on, GOOD! A little humility will aid your safety. A lot of humility will aid your safety a lot. Don't count this as a failure. Count it as a learning event. Instead of a long post about why you're quitting, why not let everyone hear knwo what we want to hear: What have you learned? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #43 June 7, 2005 Quotebecause nobody ever told me I was doing anything wrong, I was landing like I always had. So how did I know there was something else I should be doing? Fair enough. QuoteI nhardly ever wear shoes in my other life, and I have heard alot of people here and at the dz talking about and or doing it Did you ask anyone if it was a good idea? If not, then you should take that as a lesson that while it may SEEM like a good idea, you should get a mentor to run things by. QuoteI froze when I realized I was going land on the taxi way, having ground fixation and not flaring has been one of my bigger problems in the past, but the last 15 or so jumps, it hasnt been a problem, my landings were spot on OK. Lesson learned...Don't forget to flare..EVER. It is ALWAYS bad. (OK two out its not, but thats another story) Like I said...Get off of her, Sit ina FJC, get a mentor..(NOT YOU BF, HUSBAND ect...And not someone with WOW 200 jumps!!!, get someone with an Instructors rating and a few years of EXP.)"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpergirl 0 #44 June 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. As an instructor I find your theory offensive. I also know that every one of the other instructors (TI, AFF-I, Coaches, SL/IAD) would also find this incredibly offensive! Get some more time in the sport, learn how real instructors behave and conduct themselves with their students. Dave, I totally respect you and am anxious to meet you at SkyFest. Based on what I have read from you in the forums here over the years, I would gladly send any one of my family or friends to you for instruction. I wouldn't hesitate. If I had a sister, I'd send her to you, too. However, there are male instructors out there who aren't as "good" as you. By "good" I mean, fair. Real, true, GOOD instructors won't care what their student is. Apparently you are real, true, and GOOD. Some aren't. Those are the ones who deserve the comments about "bad/biased/sexist" training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BoostedXT 0 #45 June 7, 2005 My experience in this sport is unless you are a paycheck people wont offer you assistance in learning. I look at it as two choices....1) Sit back and not learn because they dont offer it, 2) Make the effort to read/learn/ and progress. I chose #2. I have walked up to many experienced jumpers and asked flat out questions, when? where? how? and draw backs of everything...and in the end I QUESTION EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE in this sport. Its your ass plumiting towards earth so you better make sure that what you are told is right. Now I didnt read your other post so I dont know the story behind this one, but I will say that shit happens, learn from it, move on, and share the knowledge you gained to others. This sport does have a lot of hypocracy though, so what you are seeing tends to be the norm. Sincerely JoeFor long as you live and high you fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all that you touch and all that you see is all your life will ever be. Pedro Offers you his Protection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #46 June 7, 2005 Ah, you caught me, I meant to say "everyone of the other instructors at my DZ" would find it offensive. Yeah, I know there are some instructors that pull bullshit like that, I know of some that use their ratings to try to get laid. All in all its sad.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpergirl 0 #47 June 7, 2005 QuoteOMG... that is so LAME! You didn't get good instruction because you're pretty?? Hey here is an idea.. DONT FLIRT BACK. Say something like "Hey, this is important to me, lets focus on it." good grief. Not a specific reply to you, Chaoskitty... It isn't always that easy. Being young, new, exicted, trying to take in whatever information IS given to you... several factors can lead to NOT knowing what they are doing is wrong. Yes, Misty made some mistakes. She got hurt. She's pissed. She's upset. She's confused. She has learned from it, too. Isn't THAT what we're supposed to do? Learn from our mistakes as well as those of others? Isn't THAT what the Incidents forum is for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #48 June 7, 2005 QuoteRon, I agree with A LOT of what you say. You should know that just because you know me. However, I totally disagree with that one. You know I started jumping when I was 16. You know I was 1 of, oh, maybe 5 girls in the state. You know what I looked like then. You don't know that I didn't realize what I DIDN'T know until I got out of that state, away from the guys I was jumping with Actually the only thing keeping you from knowledge was your then BF. Really thats it. you forget I was there and saw what you look like He kept everyone but the ones he wanted from you. QuoteI never learned to spot. I never learned the lines on my canopy. I never learned how to pack. MANY folks don't know those things....I have had to teach 3 of my GF's how to pack. They all had 200-800 jumps. Trust me, you would have gotten more training if your old BF would have let you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites livendive 8 #49 June 7, 2005 Quoteif they dont say anything how can I listen to them? Ask? I know, it's a crazy idea, but what's the worst that could happen? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymama 35 #50 June 7, 2005 QuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. That's totally and completely ridiculous. If that is the way you are treated in life, then you need to change your behavior.She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
BoostedXT 0 #45 June 7, 2005 My experience in this sport is unless you are a paycheck people wont offer you assistance in learning. I look at it as two choices....1) Sit back and not learn because they dont offer it, 2) Make the effort to read/learn/ and progress. I chose #2. I have walked up to many experienced jumpers and asked flat out questions, when? where? how? and draw backs of everything...and in the end I QUESTION EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE in this sport. Its your ass plumiting towards earth so you better make sure that what you are told is right. Now I didnt read your other post so I dont know the story behind this one, but I will say that shit happens, learn from it, move on, and share the knowledge you gained to others. This sport does have a lot of hypocracy though, so what you are seeing tends to be the norm. Sincerely JoeFor long as you live and high you fly and smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry and all that you touch and all that you see is all your life will ever be. Pedro Offers you his Protection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #46 June 7, 2005 Ah, you caught me, I meant to say "everyone of the other instructors at my DZ" would find it offensive. Yeah, I know there are some instructors that pull bullshit like that, I know of some that use their ratings to try to get laid. All in all its sad.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpergirl 0 #47 June 7, 2005 QuoteOMG... that is so LAME! You didn't get good instruction because you're pretty?? Hey here is an idea.. DONT FLIRT BACK. Say something like "Hey, this is important to me, lets focus on it." good grief. Not a specific reply to you, Chaoskitty... It isn't always that easy. Being young, new, exicted, trying to take in whatever information IS given to you... several factors can lead to NOT knowing what they are doing is wrong. Yes, Misty made some mistakes. She got hurt. She's pissed. She's upset. She's confused. She has learned from it, too. Isn't THAT what we're supposed to do? Learn from our mistakes as well as those of others? Isn't THAT what the Incidents forum is for? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #48 June 7, 2005 QuoteRon, I agree with A LOT of what you say. You should know that just because you know me. However, I totally disagree with that one. You know I started jumping when I was 16. You know I was 1 of, oh, maybe 5 girls in the state. You know what I looked like then. You don't know that I didn't realize what I DIDN'T know until I got out of that state, away from the guys I was jumping with Actually the only thing keeping you from knowledge was your then BF. Really thats it. you forget I was there and saw what you look like He kept everyone but the ones he wanted from you. QuoteI never learned to spot. I never learned the lines on my canopy. I never learned how to pack. MANY folks don't know those things....I have had to teach 3 of my GF's how to pack. They all had 200-800 jumps. Trust me, you would have gotten more training if your old BF would have let you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #49 June 7, 2005 Quoteif they dont say anything how can I listen to them? Ask? I know, it's a crazy idea, but what's the worst that could happen? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymama 35 #50 June 7, 2005 QuoteBeing an attractive girl , our instruction is often times half-assed. That's totally and completely ridiculous. If that is the way you are treated in life, then you need to change your behavior.She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man, because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
