Military vs. Civilian Training

[dj_smokie 0]

Hi everyone. I'd like to thank everyone on this site for contributing their knowledge to the sport. I've learned a lot!

I've seen a few posts comparing AFF to military training methods. But my question is related to the thoroughness and safety of the training, and not necessary the process used.

At USAFA, I took AM-490. We went through about 35 hrs of ground school and made our first 5 jumps unassisted from 4500 AGL with a 10 second delay. Although I was scared as hell -- probably all 5 jumps -- I was able to trust in the thoroughness of the training and that helped me to control my fear enough to make 5 safe jumps.

What made me a bit nervous about my AFF training was that it was so laid back. I believe that my instructor covered everything, but it was very loosely organized. I wasn't presented with a syllabus or a hard copy of a dive flow to go over before my first two jumps. We just talked over it. Also, on the de-briefs, I felt like they wanted to make me feel good about my jumps instead of hitting me hard for what I screwed up. For a sport as serious as skydiving, I expect them to nail me for every mistake.

Is that the norm for most DZs? Am I being overly cautious and critical of the DZ?

And one more concern...is it normal for people to drink at DZs after the last load? I heard it's part of the skydiving culture...but not to be offensive...but when is anything regarding aviation and alcohol EVER safe? The last thing I would want is an unregulated / irresponsible jumper to endanger everyone else.

Thank you for your input! -- J

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

Standard disclaimer: Not an instructor. Just MY opinion.
Civilian training has to be "nice". Hardcore, "drill instructor" style instruction would just drive away students. Different FJCs use different styles: book, video, lecture. Most students wouldn't sit through 35 hours of ground instruction. Its hard enough making them sit through 4 or 5.
You went out solo after your instruction, AFF has 2 jumpers handing on to the student. I won't say it makes less instruction "necessary", but it does provide more of a margin for student error. Watch some of the videos linked in the other threads for some really scary examples.


Last concern: As long as its after (and people don't get behind the wheel) I don't see it as a problem. During jumping (and yes, it does happen) is a totally different matter. But after is "part of the culture" and can be very educational. I learned more around the bonfire than I ever did in the classroom. BTW: I don't drink at all

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[LaRusic 0]

Having done both Military and Civy jump training i believe you are being a bit cautious. To do 5 Static line jumps on the military side i did 2 weeks of ground training then 2 jumps a day on the jump stage. I think the major difference between the 2 is that in the army you are expected to control everything first time through where in AFF you do one thing at a time to avoid sensory overload. As for the instructors not coming down on you i think its just the way they are, I, however, have been with one instructor who will flat out tell ya you suck if you suck... but at the same time this is not the army anymore and some people get very worked up if you come down on them too hard and may not want to jump again for fear of screwing up.

As for the drinking, you are right, alcohol and aviation dont mix, this is why drinking is done after last load and not during the day when jumping is going on. A good reference to follow is no drinking within 8 hours of making a jump. That was our rules on the military jump course and thats what i stick to when civy jumping.

Again this is personal opinion

The Altitude above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel not in the plane are totally worthless
Dudeist Skydiver # 10

[kkeenan 13]

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...is it normal for people to drink at DZs after the last load?

Your profile doesn't say if you are currently an AF officer. I'm thinking that you're not, because if you went into the Officer's Club at any AF base and counted the pilots at the bar at the end of the day, you wouldn't ask this question.

Kevin k.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[dj_smokie 0]

Well, I'm assuming that those on flight status regulate their drinking with 12 hours bottle to throttle (or should, for various reasons to include following regulations). I'm not concerned with knocking back a few beers after the last load, as much as I am about people who don't regulate themselves and jump when they shouldn't. Are there any official USPA regulations? Who clears a jumper to be safe to jump?

Is this a valid concern? That's all I'm asking.

I'm an AF officer--I just uhm, happen to work with 98% civilians and contractors. But, I am very well aware of the drinking habits of my rated friends...

[erdnarob 1]

A very touchy subject of comparing military versus civilian training. While we owe a lot to the military which provided surplus equipment and methods in the 60s and 70s, things changed a lot in the 80s and after both for equipmentt and methods used to prepare somebody for the free fall, the last method being the use of the wind tunnel. What the military brought to skydiving is now almost reversed. You see more and more military using equipment which are the same equipement than civilian but modified for their own specific use. Same for the methods, military people are usind wind tunnel and in some countries (like Canada) they use sometimes civilian instructors and even civilian airplanes for training. For instance in USA, the US Navy Seals are partially trained at San Diego DZ (Otay Lake) with a civilian Twin Otter in a civilian DZ.
The trainings for a military and for a civilian are designed for different purposes. Military people have to wear heavy equipment and weapons as well, not the civilians.
On the other hand being an instructor is not natural for everybody. There are good and lousy instructors. I would say that a good one is an instructor who first can make the student relax and who is able to spend time with him. Unfortunately nowadays time is money and instructors are less and less available and that is why the retention rate among students is quite low. A student has to feel accepted and part of the family. Skydiving first is a social sport, the rest is skil and knowledge. In your case you seemingly got a not too good instructor. About the duration of the training: It is obvious that you don't need dozen of days to learn how too freefall. This is possible to make it shorter for the AFF program because students are supervised individually and that requires less time but as I said in other posts, AFF is maybe not for everybody. Instructor Assisted Deployment (IAD) method or even the good old Static Line method provides a more progressive way to learn about the free fall with the possibility for the student to think and review about his jump on a longer period of time and that way the chance of getting more "mature".

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Here is the regulation for jumpers:

FAR Sec. 105.7 Use of alcohol and drugs

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft, if that person is or appears to be under the influence of--

(a) Alcohol, or

(b) Any drug that affects that person's faculties in any way contrary to safety.

Here is the regulation for pilots:

FAR Section 91.17: Alcohol or drugs.
(a) No person may act or attempt to act as a crewmember of a civil aircraft --

(1) Within 8 hours after the consumption of any alcoholic beverage;

(2) While under the influence of alcohol;

(3) While using any drug that affects the person's faculties in any way contrary to safety; or

(4) While having .04 percent by weight or more alcohol in the blood.

(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a person who appears to be intoxicated or who demonstrates by manner or physical indications that the individual is under the influence of drugs (except a medical patient under proper care) to be carried in that aircraft.


I still don't get your concern about drinking after the last load. As long as jumpers and pilots meet the above standards by the FIRST load of the next day, what is the problem? I think I smell a moral position that drinkers are by their nature unreliable regarless of their blood alcohol level.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[jakee 1,259]

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Also, on the de-briefs, I felt like they wanted to make me feel good about my jumps instead of hitting me hard for what I screwed up. For a sport as serious as skydiving, I expect them to nail me for every mistake.

In civilian sport skydiving two things happen if you really nail students on all of their mistakes: 1) They feel bad and give up; 2) They get really tense and screw up even worse next time around. People learn sport skydiving for fun, not to be treated like a squaddie!

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And one more concern...is it normal for people to drink at DZs after the last load?

Yes. Everywhere.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[dj_smokie 0]

Thanks for all the insight. I'm going to be more proactive by asking good questions during the debrief from now on. And regarding alcohol consumption, I guess it's not something that I should really be worried about based on everyone's comments. I'm new to the sport and overly paranoid about safety. Nothing to do with any moral concerns. I look forward to learning more and meeting some great people!

[Para_Frog 1]

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when is anything regarding aviation and alcohol EVER safe?

When it's BASE jumping.

- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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People learn sport skydiving for fun, not to be treated like a squaddie!

I've taught sport jumping to sqaddies and they learn better when you don't treat them like sqaddies. Even the army knows that.

[deadwood 0]

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Well, I'm assuming that those on flight status regulate their drinking with 12 hours bottle to throttle

Incorrect assumption.

He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

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[kelpdiver 2]

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And regarding alcohol consumption, I guess it's not something that I should really be worried about based on everyone's comments.

Not necessarily. If you're at a boogie, perhaps you'd prefer not being on load 1 in the morning.

[Andy_Copland 0]

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When it's BASE jumping.

Thats why i invented the hands free chest strap beverage holder. In the name of safety i can drink while climbing without taking my hands off the object.

One safety note, its best to finish the beverage on the climb up and pocket it before the jump. Or risk losing teeth when when you open.

1338

People aint made of nothin' but water and shit.

Until morale improves, the beatings will continue.

[billvon 2,433]

> If you're at a boogie, perhaps you'd prefer not being on load 1 in the morning.

Although in my experience, the people who are willing to get up in time for the first load are not the ones to be worried about!

[pms07 3]

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Well, I'm assuming that those on flight status regulate their drinking with 12 hours bottle to throttle...

You probably need some exposure to the real Air Force as far as bottle to throttle and all that. Just saying...but you might be living in a fantasy world... And some of those AFA instructors tip the occasional adult beverage, or at least did when I was around there...

Anyway, as far as AM-490 versus skydiving, they are not the same activity, thus training is much different, as are EPs, procedures, gear, etc. The instructors are different as well...though many of the AFA instructors are very experienced civilian skydivers. One is not better than the other, rather they are very dissimiliar activities despite both involve jumping from an airplane.

Get out and skydive, learn from the instructors and experienced jumpers but still make good common sense judgements as far as drinking and all that. If something feels so wrong that you are concerned about safety...go somewhere else. You'll be okay...

pms

[Hausse 0]

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...is it normal for people to drink at DZs after the last load?

Why wait that long?

[dj_smokie 0]

Just finished AFF. I understand everything so much more clearly now. I drink BEFORE I go up now so that I have a good buzz going by the time I land.

No, I loved AFF and had a great time doing it. I learned a lot just by hanging out at the DZ. i think it's a great program!

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Well, I'm assuming that those on flight status regulate their drinking with 12 hours bottle to throttle (or should, for various reasons to include following regulations). Are there any official USPA regulations? \

FAA part 105 says no one may appear intoxicated while jumping. My day job at the FAA as an air traffic controller requires 8 hours, bottle-to-throttle, BA of .00,

Don't know of any DZ that lets its instructors work impaired.

[Squeak 17]

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> If you're at a boogie, perhaps you'd prefer not being on load 1 in the morning.

Although in my experience, the people who are willing to get up in time for the first load are not the ones to be worried about!

Yup that's my thinking too. I'm always on 1st load at boogies

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[steveorino 7]

Having received both military & civilian training in a variety of ways (Special Forces Q course, Jump School, UWO (SCUBA), USPA Instructor school for IAD, Tandem and AFF) I think I can offer some insight.

Looking back at much of my military training a lot of it was as hard as woodpecker lips to weed people out of the program. I noticed when the intent was more to teach and less to intimidate the instruction was less "in your face".

If we as civilian USPA Instructors wanted to intimidate people away from the sport and weed out the "bucket list" skydivers we should be as many military instructors are. However, if our desire is to introduce them into the world of skydiving, we should be a lot friendlier, but still able to tell them that golf or bowling may be more appropriate for them.

Just my 2 cents worth ...

steveOrino

[fred 0]

When I was a student, my home DZ was the nice, friendly civilian style training. I did SL there, and wasn't really getting it, but the instructors were supportive and encouraging. I honestly believed them when they said, "I really wanted to pass you, but..."

After doing a number of 10 and 15 second delays and not getting better, I had the opportunity to go to Eloy and do AFF. They had me start with a single instructor (I think they called it a L3 jump in AFFI), and he held onto me and I did circle-of-awareness and so forth.

On that first jump, I had the same problems as I was having on my 10 and 15 second delays. Slow turns and some dolphing (rocking back and forth).

When I got on the ground, my instructor, who was a former Golden Knight and military trained, took me in the back and made me practice my arch. He wasn't ruthless or anything, but a lot more strict about it than anybody at my home dropzone had been, and definitely not the easy-going friendly style I was used to.

And this really worked (for me). After the debriefing, the rest of my jumps went very smoothly. Both because he was able to find and fix the problem (even if it hurt my stomache muscles holding that arch), and because he established authority and trust early on.