the attitude towards safety in this sport compared to in others

[DARK 0]

ok so me and two non jumper friends were having a debate last night about safety in kayaking and its regulation and peoples attitudes

i was very badly making a point that from my experience of dealing with kayakers and certain other groups who take part in dangerous sports that they have an attitude of invincibility and along with unaccountability this leads to an unsafe environment.

an example was we were at a kayak intervarsities and had been partying the night before and a guy came along onto the pontoon drunk got into a kayak paddled a few strokes and capsized. there were about 50 people on the pontoon and everyone of them laughed and waited for him to save himself which he eventually did. not one person in that crowd of experienced kayakers and even instructors/leaders did anything to, for want of a better word, give out, to this person or reprimand him for being so stupid

another example is of a college river trip last year over new years where they went on the river on new years day and one person who had been partying the night before and was puking up for the whole night if not that morning and only got a few hours sleep got on the river the group got into a bad situation and either by freak accident or because they didnt have the strength to get themselves out of it because of the night before they drowned

now i would say that while accidents / tradgedies happen in every sport i believe that in general skydivers have this overwhelming respect for how dangerous what they are doing is that is not prevelant in other less obviously dangerous but still ife threatening activities. up to the point were you friends would be screaming at you to get off a load if they thought you were doing something stupid(like getting into a kayak drunk)

anyone have any thoughts on this? no matter what i said i couldnt budge my friend that maybe the regualtory bodies here for kayaking need to be stricter and more accountability needs to be introduced, he seemed happy that he has a qualification that basically just exempts his employer from any liability if an accident happens when he is in charge

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Interesting question!

I cannot speak about what other sports do or do not do, but I do have some new-guy observations about skydiving.

1. There is no ambiguity about risk in skydiving. In other sports the risks may be more readily denied. Our non-jumping frineds and family remind us of the risk frequently.

2. Our fates are linked to each other's performance in many ways:

-- The risk of one jumper's error resulting in a collison which kills or injures another jumper.

-- Any jumper's death alter's the public's perception of the sport. Often we need positive (or at least neutral) public opinion to get access to airports.

3. In many (perhaps most) sports, the key to survival is to NOT do something. In skydiving... we are all dead unless we DO something (yes, I know that AAD's reduce this effect). I think this has a great impact on skydiver attitudes and behavior.

4. It is precisely the risk that attracts some to our sport.

All that said, there is tremendous disparity in how governments, DZ's, and individual skydivers approach safety. On one end you have behavior like was recently described in these forums, where there is a mandatory gear check before boarding with the inspector required to sign that the check was done before take-off. At the other end you have no mandatory gear checks and nobody looking out for the other folks on the flight to perform an informal (eyeball only) gear check before exit. It seeems that the recent "no leg straps" wingsuit incident may be an example of this. Of course ther are all sorts of varaitions inbetween. The great variation regarding AAD requirments and use around the world are another obvious example of this variance.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[fincher 0]

thats because kayaking and other sports arent full of whiney bitches and nonprogressive prudes.
Actually, I think you underestimate them. They know thier sport and they have thier own set of safety standards. It works for them. Just like our self regulation sets a tone for our behavior.

i'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your packing tent down

[hackish 8]

I think it depends on the sport. Take sport shooting for example. If you did anything against the rules like pointing a firearm, unloaded and bolt out or not your ass would be forcefully removed very quickly. You'd probably also be banned from the range until you were cleared and probably forced to retake the safety course.

More than once in auto racing I've seen people kicked off the track for doing stupid things. Show up to race drunk and a very dim view would be taken of that too.

-Michael

[peregrinerose 0]

I disagree with you... for every stupid stunt in kayaking there's at least one in skydiving. Just because there is a regulatory body doesn't mean that stupid doesn't happen. Hang around DZs long enough and you'll find out that some are very different than others with regard to safety. Some have an 'anything goes' mentality, some have a very strong drug culture, some are very strict with safety policies.

You gave 2 examples of stupid kayakers... read back in the incidents forum.... there was a no pull a couple of years ago by a drunk/high skydiver. After-hours running over burning cars resulted in a fatality a couple of years ago and more recent injury. I'm sure there are a lot more, but those are the ones that pop in my head first.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[DARK 0]

i understand that the way kayaking is done is relatively safe i just think that the attitude of kayakers iv met is not very conducive towards safety

another example is iv tried to take up surfing recently an di know without a shadow of a doubt my surfing friends would let me know well in advance of me getting into a dangerous situation(surf thats too big reefs or whatever) whereas my experience of kayakers would indicate they would let me 'give it a shot'

obviously the fact we use airplanes has a large thing to do with how strict our regulation but do you not think that skydivers attitude is a large reason we are allowed to self regulate(in the US i mean which is not were im from). so attitude influenced regulation not the other way around?

[skybytch 259]

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do you not think that skydivers attitude is a large reason we are allowed to self regulate

No. Skydiving as a sport is allowed to self regulate because of USPA. Without USPA, skydiving in the US would be regulated by the government, just like it is in the UK and many other countries.

[DARK 0]

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I disagree with you... for every stupid stunt in kayaking there's at least one in skydiving. Just because there is a regulatory body doesn't mean that stupid doesn't happen.

oh absolutely im not saying it dosnt happen iv seen it happen but

calculated stunts are not what im talking about really i have no problem with anyone doing anything they personally want to do if it hurts noone else and they are informed enough to minimise the risk

what im talking about is more along the lines of doing stuff drunk / high. jumping a camera at 50 jumps or wearing a harness thats far too big for you. you will get called out on these things in my experience

also by regulation i mean things like an s+ta whose job it is to make sure everyone is safe and chews people out for doing stupid stuff. i dont know if they are resposible in anyway if something goes wrong but the s+ta's iv seen take their role very seriously

to compare to kayaking who is the s+ta on the river? who is stopping people making sure their gear is suitable before they get on the water i just dont see this sort of thing going on. when someone drowns, as happened last year as iv explained, just because nobody is directly responsible for the drowning it doesnt mean it could not have been prevented by a simple attitude change

anyway this isnt a personal attack on kayaking i used to be really into it so its just the easiest way for me to get my point across

[I3uller 0]

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an example was we were at a kayak intervarsities and had been partying the night before and a guy came along onto the pontoon drunk got into a kayak paddled a few strokes and capsized. there were about 50 people on the pontoon and everyone of them laughed and waited for him to save himself which he eventually did. not one person in that crowd of experienced kayakers and even instructors/leaders did anything to, for want of a better word, give out, to this person or reprimand him for being so stupid

That my friend is called Darwinism.

[Ryno118 0]

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up to the point were you friends would be screaming at you to get off a load if they thought you were doing something stupid(like getting into a kayak drunk)

If I saw some drunk man getting on my load with a Kayak, I would be laughing my head off saying "you cant jump that"

Live hard, Live fast, Die broke.
D.S. 118118

[peregrinerose 0]

Re-read my ENTIRE post, not just the first sentence. Everything you described does happen. I've seen an AFF I put a camera helmet on a person with 50 jumps, winguits on 100 jump wonders (look at the 2 fatalities in the last year), stupid shit happens every day at DZs... some DZs/DZOs/S&TAs will say 'no' others will not. Skydiving is not always as 'safety' minded as you think it is. You just haven't been around long enough to get a really big picture of what goes on.... travel to a lot of different DZs and you'll very quickly find out which ones you won't go back to due to safety concerns.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[skybytch 259]

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If I saw some drunk man getting on my load with a Kayak, I would be laughing my head off saying "you cant jump that"

Hopefully you wouldn't be laughing at a sober guy getting on a load with a kayak. Kayaks can and have been jumped.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Part of it is the concentration of capital in our sport. Every DZ has one person with more to lose than the others (everyone can lose their life, but I'm talking about serious stuff, money), the DZO. Not always but often the DZO has been around a while and either through hard knocks or just natural selection they tend to be more conservative than the average jumper. This is why the sport has a conservative edge that is not always present in other activities.

[Ryno118 0]

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If I saw some drunk man getting on my load with a Kayak, I would be laughing my head off saying "you cant jump that"

Hopefully you wouldn't be laughing at a sober guy getting on a load with a kayak. Kayaks can and have been jumped.

Yeah Iv seen it on youtube, look http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=R2XbT2VK-nc

Live hard, Live fast, Die broke.
D.S. 118118

[gkc1436 3]

>up to the point were you friends would be screaming at you to get off a load if they thought you were doing something stupid

Let me get this straight....

I should have said something when i saw a 6 foot stuffed bear wearing a tandem rig, and the tandem master wearing the student harness???

What fun would that have been.....

[tombuch 0]

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also by regulation i mean things like an s+ta whose job it is to make sure everyone is safe and chews people out for doing stupid stuff. i dont know if they are resposible in anyway if something goes wrong but the s+ta's iv seen take their role very seriously

First, S&TA is a volunteer position, generally given to a very experienced and responsible jumper who takes safety seriously. They have no meaningful responsibility for safety, other than the responsibility the other jumpers choose to bestow upon the S&TA. And hopefully they aren't "chewing people out" but rather helping to educate them, and setting an overall tone of regulatory support, and a group approach to looking out for each other. That's really a matter of helping to define and direct the culture. I handled that job for six years at a large multi-Otter DZ, although back when I was younger I was stupid crazy. It helps to have had those experiences, and that made me a better S&TA.

I agree that for the most part skydiving is pretty well managed, and we do respect each other and the risks of the sport. There are still some DZ's that are out of control, but overall we do care about risk management and we respect the danger of our sport. It hasn't always been this way.

Back in the day it wasn't at all uncommon for jumpers to smoke weed in the airplane, perhaps do some blow on the climb to altitude, or otherwise get really messed up before jumping. There is a hilarious old-school video someplace of a naked jumper being helped into a Twin Otter because he is too drunk to even walk. 20 people are cheering him on. That doesn't happen very often anymore, and it the maturity of the sport that created the change.

Skydiving these days involves expensive airplanes and DZ owners with a lot of financial exposure. Plus most of the folks who have been in the sport for a while have watched their friends screw up. We know how much that sucks, so we look out for the younger jumpers. And, we have terrific communication through our publications and this site, and that helps us identify and discourage problems and builds a solid base for our improving safety culture.

We aren't perfect by any means, but our sport is far better than it once was, and our culture has grown to discourage the kind of activity you speak about in the river world.

When I was S&TA at The Ranch I maintained a web blog of safety topics. It is still on-line at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. Two articles that you might find interesting are:

Article 3 "What is An S&TA?
Article 17 "A Safety Culture"

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[DARK 0]

ye i did read your entire post both of them and ye i am just a noob so maybe im seeing my new sport threw rose tinted goggles still

i think it is an interesting discussion all the same thanks for all the replies

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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an example was we were at a kayak intervarsities and had been partying the night before and a guy came along onto the pontoon drunk got into a kayak

intevarsities would imply college students, who are generally aged 18-22?

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another example is of a college river trip last year over new years where they

Young people tend to do stupid things until they learn judgement, preferably without first hand experience or at least no lasting damage.

Newcomers to sports tend to do stupid things until they realize how much they don't know. Visits to the orthopaedic surgeon can help speed the learning but most people don't need that.

Cars, motorcycles, drugs, airplanes, parachutes, snowboards, snowmobiles, it's all the same.

Once you start hanging around with adults you'll find that nearly all the survivors in a sport for enough years have a less cavalier attitude about safety.

A few manage to make it to their 40s or even 60s without learning. You just hope they don't take anyone with them when they go and avoid situations where you'll be collateral damage.

[DARK 0]

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Young people tend to do stupid things until they learn judgement, preferably without first hand experience or at least no lasting damage.

ye thats the first thing that should of jumped out at me i suppose i am 4 years older than everyone i go to college with so im sure that has a big impression on how i judge what they do

obviously i just got lucky with the two dzs i started jumping at both had party atmospheres at the appropriate time and very safety conscious attitudes the rest of the time i obviously just assumed everywhere else was the same

i suppose my original post has kinda been answered and that i was naieve in applying the attitudes of the 50 or so skydivers i know to everyone else

[skr 1]

> Newcomers to sports tend to do stupid things until they realize how much they don't know.

> Cars, motorcycles, drugs, airplanes, parachutes, snowboards, snowmobiles, it's all the same.

> Once you start hanging around with adults you'll find that nearly all the survivors in a sport for enough years have a less cavalier attitude about safety.


Reading my thought balloon again, eh? :-) :-)

[shermanator 3]

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an example was we were at a kayak intervarsities and had been partying the night before and a guy came along onto the pontoon drunk got into a kayak paddled a few strokes and capsized. there were about 50 people on the pontoon and everyone of them laughed and waited for him to save himself which he eventually did. not one person in that crowd of experienced kayakers and even instructors/leaders did anything to, for want of a better word, give out, to this person or reprimand him for being so stupid

It is the same in skydiving as in kayaking.... consider this thought, you skydive, and are very safety aware *i'm assuming* yet, when you witnessed the drunk guy get into the kayak, you didn't try to stop him, and when he tipped, you sat there with the rest of them, just watching. Do you cary this same attitude with you to the dropzone, or is it chane with the context of the sport you are participating in? I'm just curious.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[mjosparky 3]

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Young people tend to do stupid things until they learn judgement, preferably without first hand experience or at least no lasting damage.

Remember, "good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment"

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DARK 0]

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Do you cary this same attitude with you to the dropzone, or is it chane with the context of the sport you are participating in? I'm just curious.

im not a kayaker or at least i havnt been since i was around 16 but i understand your point

[Baksteen 84]

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snowboards

..and skiing.

Seeing the trauma helicopter land not fifty meters in front of me this vacation got me thinking.

Several aquaintences of mine have told me that they "didn't like" skiing/snowboarding, "it just wasn't their thing".
It turned out that none of these people had taken actual lessons, all of them had this friend who was a good skier/snowboarder and who would oh, I don't know, take them down the slope.
Even worse are the people who simply start experimenting all by themselves without any prior experience at all. These people simply strap on skis or usually a snowboard (and usually such people are English, German or Dutch) go to the top of the slope and "go back to the valley". It has little to do with the sport they hallucinate they are performing.

Skiing and snowboarding. "Everyone" does it. Everyone knows it's fun. You see it on TV a lot. It looks easy, what's the worst that can happen? If you fall you'd fall in snow. Snow is soft, right?

So people apres-ski until the small hours, eat breakfast (optional) and get back on the skis. Ten, eleven o clock they decide that a hair of the dog is the best hangover cure and they stop at a conveniently situated restaurant halfway down a random slope to have a few beers, or strong liquor even.
After a few more slopes they decide to have a few more to bolster their courage before trying the black piste.

Remember, we're talking about drinking at altitudes where skydivers would normally yell "door" - Making curves/turns goes automatically at some point, it's the straight lines that are challenging.

Four o clock the restaurants high up close and everyone goes back to the valley all at once, zipping and zooming left, right past each other.

Now consider what you're actually doing. You're strapping one or two planks to your feet and proceed to descend a mountain. Speeds of 50 KPH are easily achieved even by beginners.
The fact that "everyone does it" doesn't make skiing and snowboarding any less an extreme sport...Sometimes it is just like a melee on the slopes. You can trust no one who's out there with you.

The yellow helicopter is seen/heard so often that you don't even pause to look anymore if it's flying by. It's a miracle that you don't see or hear the trauma helicopter even more often.

I did take lessons when i started out. Next season I'm taking some more to learn advanced techniques. I don't drink alcohol when I still want to ski that day. Skiing is fun - too much fun to spend half the holidays in hospital, not enough fun to miss out on skydiving for the following five, six months.

Just stating the facts as I see them.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[JohnMitchell 14]

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ye i did read your entire post both of them and ye i am just a noob so maybe im seeing my new sport threw rose tinted goggles still

Read TomBuch's stuff. He hits the mark with his advice. Remember that you are wearing rose colored goggles. Realize that people will let you do things very bad for your health in this sport, from friends to pilots to people selling gear. Educate yourself and watch out for yourself. I shudder to think of some of the stupid crap I did when I first started jumping.