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A license jumping camera....

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tkhayes

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Yet the video distraction incidents keep occurring.



I am still waiting to see the list of them that makes video such a dangerous thing. ...



This is a post I made several years ago after categorizing the lists of camera "incidents" in DSE's "incident list" post that is mentioned below. At the time everyone kept citing that post as conclusive evidence that cameras on low-timer jumpers was dangerous. When I looked at them in detail, I reached the opposite conclusion, particularly for GoPro-type camera.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4565386#4565386

I can think of about 5 things that setting a 200-jump minimum on that would be vastly more effective at improving safety in this sport compared to having a 200-jump minimum to wear a GoPro. (Not that I necessarily would be in favor putting a 200-jump limit of those 5 other things.)

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^^^
What he said....

We went through the same bullshit with IAD and BOC pilot chutes for students, everyone in the USA claiming they are dangerous even though they were being used all over the world.

I remember someone claiming that somehow Canadians were just really good at hiding all the accidents related to a IADs .... wtf?

Barry Chase (SEDirector at the time) would not support throw out pilot chutes for students because he couldn't find anything 'wrong' with it...wtf?

We live in a world of rules based on evidence people. If small cameras were dangerous then there would be a litany of accidents to demonstrate that. The only issue I have is how to make a buck off a student wearing their own GoPro

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unkulunkulu

We estimate a lot of things logarithmically even on biological level, think bell sound scale. For jump numbers it makes sense: 200 jumps vs 100 is more significant than 1100 vs 1000. Choosing a "round" number close to a desired estimation is just trying to convey information efficiently using given system, with fewer digits.
So the roundness of the numbers shouldn't be there sign of arbitrariness.



Agreed. I have no issue with round/even/divisible-by-5-or-10 numbers. My issue, as I described, is a lack of correlating them to anything quantifiable and applying them far too broadly. *See my super long ass rant on the previous page*

I'm back btw, in case anyone wants to tangle ;)

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tkhayes

^^^
What he said....

We went through the same bullshit with IAD and BOC pilot chutes for students, everyone in the USA claiming they are dangerous even though they were being used all over the world.

I remember someone claiming that somehow Canadians were just really good at hiding all the accidents related to a IADs .... wtf?

Barry Chase (SEDirector at the time) would not support throw out pilot chutes for students because he couldn't find anything 'wrong' with it...wtf?

We live in a world of rules based on evidence people. If small cameras were dangerous then there would be a litany of accidents to demonstrate that. The only issue I have is how to make a buck off a student wearing their own GoPro



Reminds me of a old TI I know with a 3 digit D-License. He once told me (not complaining, just noting how things had changed) "30 years ago it would have been considered insane to put a student on a main with the performance of a Navigator."

"Your old road is rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one if you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'."

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>We went through the same bullshit with IAD and BOC pilot chutes for students,
>everyone in the USA claiming they are dangerous even though they were being
>used all over the world.

And we went through the same bullshit with blast handles, the Nova, the 45 degree rule and wingsuiting near tandems, with everyone in the USA claiming those things are dangerous even though they were being used all over the world.

"Lots of people do it" has never been a good reason to do something.

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billvon

>I am still waiting to see the list of them that makes video such a dangerous thing.

DSE published a list of about 40 of them to this website about 5 years ago. I don't think he has kept it up though.

>This is a pretty small industry.....if there were large numbers of dangerous things
>happening due to camera, then we would be seeing them, especially because they
>are being recorded.

Some are. In many of them, the video is quickly "lost" if it shows something that might get the person grounded.

>USPA at the very least should be seeing and reporting on them.

USPA is almost never going to see them. How many people do you know go to an S+TA and say "you know, I'm doing something pretty dangerous and you should report me?" DSE saw them because he does a lot of video - and talks to a lot of people who do video. And, of course, he's not USPA.



And all of that lack of reporting and maintaining of records is an enormous problem for developing and refining "industry best practices." Ideally our community would want to share that information and keep first hand reports and expert analysis. e.g. that Skydive Arizona guy does a phenomenal job with his incident reports. Also the Blinc BASE Fatality list comes to mind. But given the number of skydiving incidents, would be significantly more complex to maintain in our arena.

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billvon

>We went through the same bullshit with IAD and BOC pilot chutes for students,
>everyone in the USA claiming they are dangerous even though they were being
>used all over the world.

And we went through the same bullshit with blast handles, the Nova, the 45 degree rule and wingsuiting near tandems, with everyone in the USA claiming those things are dangerous even though they were being used all over the world.

"Lots of people do it" has never been a good reason to do something.



I'll add, the most dangerous Tandem flyby I ever saw was Scotty Burns (may he rest in peace) toward the end of his flying career. He essentially (and unintentionally) passed between the drogue and the main, and within the drogue's oscillation cone. The TI (who is on the upper level of "responsible") and everyone else laughed it off, because it was Scotty Burns. Double standard much?

If you don't police the pro's, then the children will run wild.

**The vid was widely shared and is probably "out there" but I don't have a copy. It happened in DeLand if anyone is curious enough to look for it. It is Scotty's POV, to my knowledge no outside video exists**

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billvon

>We went through the same bullshit with IAD and BOC pilot chutes for students,
>everyone in the USA claiming they are dangerous even though they were being
>used all over the world.

And we went through the same bullshit with blast handles, the Nova, the 45 degree rule and wingsuiting near tandems, with everyone in the USA claiming those things are dangerous even though they were being used all over the world.

"Lots of people do it" has never been a good reason to do something.



I was not saying let's do it because everyone is doing it....I SPECIFICALLY asked to see the data. And I still state there is little or none.

so again, if you want to prove me wrong, show me the data. there are 15 cameras on every load today, if video was a distraction or dangerous, we would know about it and there would be a ton of evidence to support that claim. still waiting.

especially waiting from the folks at UPT that specifically made the claims they made during PIA. i support the data. but there appears to be none.

or little

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>so again, if you want to prove me wrong, show me the data. there are 15 cameras
>on every load today, if video was a distraction or dangerous, we would know about it
> and there would be a ton of evidence to support that claim. still waiting.

OK. Here's one list from one person (DSE) compiled through 2014. 47 incidents. I could add another ~10 if I was good about writing down local (Perris) incidents, but I'm not.

============================
Late Summer 2009 Southeastern Region
I was playing with mounting options of my recently purchased little camera. Having just over 1,000 camera jumps at the time, this seemed like no big deal to stick it on the foot and go out and play. Given the nature of my jumping history, I have jumped non-standard gear on several occasions, including cameras mounted on the leg and chest but always with thorough planning beforehand. However this was a toy to me so I just took it lightly, grabbed it and went out to the boarding area for the dirt dive, fiddling with it the whole time. It was not till about 10,000 feet where I realize that my helmet is sitting on the bench in the boarding area and that I’ve been so distracted this whole time by the little plastic camera on my foot. I didn’t even notice on takeoff, when I always wear my helmet, that I had nothing on my head. This whole thing kinda spooked me so I told everyone that I would hang out on the outside of the tracking dive and break off early so that I can play it safe.

To sum it up, the skydive sucked, didn’t get any good footage because I was outside, and was mad at myself that I could be so careless. I think the small camera has been in the closet ever since and I went back to wearing camera only on camera jumps and no camera on fun jumps. Sorry the story has no blood and guts, but it’s still a big lesson on how sometimes things seem like no big deal when they really are. It may have ended different if I decided to stay in the skydive.


November 27 2009-NorCal Area
Female with approx 40 jumps exited aircraft with friend (about same number of jumps) Female claims to be “very active” BASE jumper, so going low (approx 1000 feet) was “no big deal.” She did not have a CYPRES. She was trying to shoot her friend’s deployment “from below.” No injury.

December 17, 2009 –SoCal Area
Male from Switzerland. 30 jumps. “I’m a paraglider pilot, so I know how to fly already.”
Flew into fence while trying to get video of his shadow. Minor cuts/abrasions.

Exact Date unknown-SoCal area
Female jumper, around 80 jumps was warned on ground and in aircraft about flying with a camera. She indicated that she felt very confident about flying with the small format camera taped to her helmet.
She left the aircraft with her goggles around her neck and after landing, admitted that in the process of trying to get the camera going, she had forgotten to put on her goggles. She was shaken up by the experience. No injury.

January 1 2010 Southeastern Region
Skydiver was shooting a friend on a high clear n’ pull. Neither one noticed their location and both ended landing far off the dropzone. Sprained ankle resultant from downwind landing on uneven and unfamiliar terrain.

March 21 2010 Southwestern Region
Skydiver “just shooting my jump” saw another canopy in the pattern and wanted to shoot it not noticing his own altitude. Downwind landing (against pattern). No injury, merely a talking-to by S&TA.

February (day unknown) SoCal
Two skydivers, each with fewer than 100 jumps, wearing small format cameras. They were practicing sit-flying and went low. Both deployed at approximately the same time and had a collision during deployment. Both suffered bruising, contusions. One jumper had 4 broken lines and 3’ tear in his center cell but did not cut away. He described the canopy as “really cool in the video” indicating he’d spent a lot of time looking up at the canopy. Neither had serious injuries.

March, exact date unknown Area/location not disclosed.
Tandem instructor with small format hand cam has a malfunction. He cuts away main but does not reach for the reserve handle, apparently anticipating a MARD save. He later explained that he wanted to keep filming the student and the cutaway (He did get great footage). No injury.

April 13 2010 Western Region
Skydiver with around 100 jumps wearing camera on head has spinning malfunction.
Delays cutting away and disconnects chinstrap on helmet before cutting away, losing altitude awareness. He was worried about the snag hazard, but still left his RSL connected anyway. He did not pull his reserve handle because “he felt the Skyhook take over as he was putting his hand on the D ring.” Skydiver had allegedly been warned about wearing a camera before 200 jumps. No injury.

April 19 2010 SoCal
Same skydiver from Switzerland mentioned earlier (Paraglider pilot) working on his swooping skills @ 200 jumps (while wearing wingsuit). Flew into fabric side of packing area breaking tension cables and damaging wingsuit. Claims camera wasn’t part of his incident.

April 21, 2010 Southeast Region
Skydiver with 242 jumps got a small format camera for Easter and was anxious to jump it. He pulled the camera from the USB charger and was rushing to the aircraft. He could not get the camera to turn on/stay on/go into record mode, and as a result of his rush, forgot to connect his chest strap.
He was experienced enough to grab his MLW and hold on during deployment.
His PM said “I think I need to work on my mental skills more because the camera kept me from doing my regular routine.” No injury.

May 3-5 (exact day unknown), 2010 Western Region
Skydiver could not get his small format camera to turn on and when the exit light came on, was still playing with his helmet. He delayed the other jumpers to the point that two others went past him. This created a snag hazard for the other skydivers, plus he had a helmet loose in the door area. The tandems on the load requested a go-around. No injury, was talked to on the ground.

May 2010 Central Region
AFF instructor was jumping a small format camera that they just had only just purchased. He was slightly long on climb out but still within reason. AFF jump goes normal until student deployment when the instructor flips to his back to film the opening of the student then tracks and deploys. This AFF instructor landed off while the other side instructor easily landed on the DZ with the student. Instructor was distracted by wanting to get "the shot." The instructor that landed off was carrying the student radio. The student landed uneventually without radio assistance.

June 7, 2010 South East area
Similar incident to tandem handcam incident posted above. Malfunction of the main (lineover followed by linetwists), TI cuts away but does not go for reserve handle. His left hand does not move in the entire video, and in the video, makes a comment about “getting that on camera.” Skyhook save. Reserve opens with several line twists and still, instructor does not move left hand, using right hand to twist and legs to kick.


June 20, 2010 SoCal area
(Actual jump number unknown, 3 months in sport). Newbie Jumper wearing small format camera on his chest was trying head down for the first time, got low (admitted he was geeking his camera) and deployed while head down. He flipped into his lines and one of the lines snagged his chest mount. “I was going for my hook knife but was able to clear the line first.” No injury.

June 21, 2010 Area unknown (from a post on DZ.com)
A jumper with approx. 50 jumps was gearing up and getting ready to board the plane, a highly experienced camera person noticed that this jumper had a Go Pro camera attached on top of his helmet. The jumper was questioned about his skill level, the jumper stated that the Go Pro is very small and that in no way will it ever get hung on his risers on opening, so his opinion was that it should not fall under USPA guidelines: of a recommendation of 200 skydives should be performed before flying a camera.
The jumper boarded the plane and performed his skydive. The incident was brought to my attention and the jumper was questioned by me immediately following his jump.
As we were talking I could tell the jumper was visibly nervous, he began to explain to me that after he deployed his parachute he noticed that his chest strap had been misrouted. Lesson learned!
A camera is a DISTRACTION! Like it or not! I asked this jumper how many times he checked his camera to make sure it was on before he left the plane? He said he checked it multiple times. It is obvious that after he geared up, he never once checked himself, before he entered the plane, never checked his gear, while in the plane and before exiting he never checked his gear.....he checked his camera multiple times.


June 22, 2010 SoCal area
From S+T:
===========
Jump number 200, which is the minimum requirement for strapping a camera to your head at our DZ. Strapped a camera to my head. Plan was to film two handsome skydivers jumping in only boxer shorts after some bets from the night before. This was in March, with plenty of snow on the ground. And to make it interesting, we planned a downwind landing - unless the wind was too strong. Can anyone say "recipe for disaster"? (=

Freefall was uneventful. Followed one of the guys down in canopy. Looked at the windsock and decided it was "too strong". Of course, the other guys on the load thought otherwise. Coming out of the 180 degree hook I see one of them coming towards me. Not very close, but it grabbed my attention. Even got it on tape. But I didn't notice the ground coming up on me... Didn't flare at all, hit with feet, knees, upper body, bounced back through the risers in a somersault and landed on my back about 5 meters away. Thank SkyGod for the meter of snow on the ground - I walked away with a stiff neck for 1 week.

Conclusion: Camera is a distraction. Never plan for "downwind, unless it's too much", it would be much better with "downwind, or other side of the runway if you think it's too much". 180 degree hooks make it hard for others to see what you're doing and for you to see what others are doing. Stupid stupid stupid.

June 28, 2010 Central Cal region
Guy I was organizing this weekend at XXXXX. The jumper in question has plenty of skydives but is not the most heads up guy you've ever met. We were first out of the PAC on a 4 way freefly jump.

He was having a hard time getting the camera to turn on, so he started putting his helmet on without the Small Format Camera attached, turning on the camera and then sliding it into the locking mount. He put his helmet on, thought he turned the camera on and then put the Small Format Camera on, but he put it on backwards. He realized his error just as the green light came on. The jumper started to take his helmet off to correct the problem and I told him to forget about it. He listened to me and started to climb out when someone behind us yelled, "And it's not on either" He then stopped his climb out and started to try and turn it on. I again forcefully told him to forget it and he finally finished the climb out....ready set go.

It was a light load so we had room in the spot but he was clearly more concerned with that camera than anything else going on around him. My opinion is that this is a guy who wouldn't jump a camera if the smaller form factor were not available. I told him on the ground if he was going to jump a camera he needed to be ready to go once the green light was on, and if he wasn't he needed to forget about it and exit anyway. I think I should have told him he shouldn't be jumping a camera.

Date unknown, Southeastern Region
Jumper with 133 jumps had a small format camera and this was her first jump with the camera. She removed the camera from her helmet and was talking to the camera when a gust of wind grabbed her canopy and picked her up. She landed on her side and broke her wrist. Her helmet probably saved her from additional injury.

July 4, 2010
From I/E, S&TA Western Region:
Jumper with 112 jumps decided to sneak a (brand deleted, small format) camera on a load. We do not allow them before 200 jumps, period.
Filming his own landing he failed to flare as he was watching either his feet or his shadow. We haven't heard back from the hospital yet but it appears he sprained both wrists, maybe broken.
This jumper will be monitored very closely in the future but I believe he has learnt his lesson with this injury.
Please keep posting these incidents. They make for strong arguments against these dweebs that think it's about the size of the camera that counts.

NorCal, July 10
Tandem-master is doing Handcam. Spinning main due to one break toggle being stuck. He never attempts to clear break toggle! Cut-away! Never uses left hand to pull reserve. RSL/skyhook safe. Not sure if camera was the problem. Didn't look like he tried to film everything (or at least the footage doesn't look good) He claims to have had TM cut-aways before where the skyhook beat him to the reserve....so he decided this time not even going for the reserve? TM has PRO rating too.
[dse note;I have requested a copy of this video so I can pixelate/blur faces but post the incident.]

August 19 2010
From S&TA/Southern area
Younger jumper
[edited to say] Small format camera] tied to helmet
Riser caught camera on deployment and broke plastic clip. Camera flew out but the Spectra tied to camera case caught riser and brake.
[edited to remove name] landed with helmet attached to chest strap because the way his helmet got wrapped on riser.

October 1, 2010: Mid-Western region
A jumper with approximately 120 jumps was competing in a 4-way scramble event. He had a [[namebrand deleted]] mounted on the side of his helmet with velcro and a tether. One the first jump of the day, he knocked his helmet on the door on exit and the camera came loose.

Because the camera was tethered, it was floating next to his head, smacking up and down in the wind. They ended up funneling the exit and went pretty low while he spent several seconds trying to fix it. Eventually he gave up and continued the skydive.

On the next jump he hooked up the camera again. We told him that perhaps he shouldn't wear it given the circumstances and his less than 200 jumps, but he insisted it was fine. Since our DZ doesn't have a set rule about no cameras before 200, there was nothing anyone could do.

Because I was right above the formation when the camera nearly came off, I'm not too happy with the situation. There's a good chance that I could have gotten a face-full of camera if there hadn't been a tether. Have you had any success in convincing jumpers not to use these types of cameras with such low jump numbers?

Western Region (Chicks Rock) Oct 1
Visiting jumper borrowed helmet from experienced skydiver. Small format camera on helmet.
It was this visiting jumpers first jump on this parachute/main, first helicopter jump, and second jump from below altide. He had around 50 total skydives.
After exiting the helicopter, he kept looking around the sky for his partner, but couldn't locate her, His audible can be heard going off. He does not deploy.
He appears to deploy at approx 1.5k based on pausing video with his alti in view.
He has sufficient altitude to get back to DZ at that point, but he chooses to geek teh camera instead, throwing hand signals etc. He does not make it back to the DZ landing area, and instead lands on the motorcycle racetrack. Had he deployed at proper altitude, or had he not geeked the [brand name deleted], he'd have easily made it back.

South Eastern Region PM rec'd Nov 4 2010
I should have listened to you guys.
My [{edit} small format camera] was glued and taped on the top of my helmet. When I deployeed my breaks excess got caught over the camera and I couldn't see what was caught so I tryed to pull off my helmet and then saw my break lines on it. I couldn't steer and couldn't know what to do so I chopped my canopy and had my first reserve ride. My helmet stayed tied to the canopy and even the camera was OK.
(video of this incident has been requested. This jumper has 66 jumps)

Western Region PM rec'd Dec 13 2010
Heres another 1 for your dz.com list.
Dude has a [[brand name deleted]] on his helmet @ about 65 jumps dzo he dont care.
Head down and delpoys and lines caught on the [[name brand deleted]] and he had to chop. and the [[brand name deleted]] broke off but it made his reserve twist up when it pulled his head. He got lucky to get out of the twists at about 1grand.

Midwest DZ, April 2011

First jump with a small format camera. Have owned one for about 2 years, using it for things like mtn biking, rock climbing, kayaking, snowboarding, etc. (not saying this made me ready to jump it, just more aware of what I was attaching to my helmet). Uneventful 2 way, was aware of the small format camera on my head but remained altitude aware, tracked off at 5.5, waved, deployed. Nasty spinning line twists, didn't want to chop because it was my first camera jump although I remained altitude aware in the spins, making the decision at 3K that I could kick out, started spinning out around 2.8, fully out of twists by 2.6.

SouthEastern Region June 18

My friend was jumping his [small format camera] and hit it on exit. He was trying to fix it so it was pointing the right angle after the exit and started to sping. He spinned very fast and hit me in the side and almost made my hackey come out. After he hit me we both were spinning pretty fast so he pulled his main because we said cameraman pulls first.
People should know to leave alone the camera if there is a problem in the jump so more problems don't happen in the jump.

8-22-2011: Location unknown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCu-KfMhH4g

SouthWestern Region 9-1-2011
Got another one for ya. One of our young jumpers travels a lot on business. Got his a license here. A few weeks back was up in Washington. Bought a contour from [deleted] no one ever said a word. Had 35 jumps or so. Jumped it there side mounted and at [deleted].
Came back to Texas and jumped at [deleted]. Gorgeous day was flying around enjoying the clouds and the view. When he landed realized he had lost the camera to a riser strike.
Went out to a local store and bought another. A few days later went down there, manifested on a 13 minute call. Spent the time taping his camera to his helmet to make sure he didn't lose it again. Halfway to altitude realized that he was so focused on his camera that that he didn't bring an altimeter. Hid that fact from everyone cuz he was embarrassed. Left the plane and counted to 55-one hundred and pulled when he Was getting serious ground rush
Came back to his home DZ yesterday. Walking out to the plane saw his camera and promptly told him he didn't have the experience and he didn't argue and took it right off.
Sad part is he's completely ok with not jumping it here but he openly admits that when he is somewhere they don't care, he is wearing it.

Western Region 10-8-2011
(this person has 31 jumps when the incident occurred, according to their DZ.com profile)
Here's one for your report list.
I was flying just fine after deployment but did a really hard turn. When I was looking over my shoulder my camera got stock in my lines and I couldn't get it off. I was low to take my hands off my breaks. I landed, but it cranked my head over and I sprained my wrist when I fell over. I'm going to take off the camera for a while.

North East Region 11-6-2011
Short story:
Four low experinced jumpers exiting the OTTER at 13,500' with seemingly a very poor plan. The jumps turns into a 2-way and maybe another 2-way or two more solos (two other just vanish from the frame) The guy with about 110-115 jumps wearing a Drift camera trying to video the person (same experince level or even less) a who he was able to "catch" in free fall. When I viewd the video I knew it's going to show some trouble because it was getting awefully long.
Finally the "video subject" deploys and the guy with his Drift trying to film the deployment. At the mean time the two other jumper's canopies show up in the frame while he passing them in freefall.
Of course they were low... Now the dude deploys his main as expected his AAD fires his reserve at the same time. The lucky bastard had a biplane not an etanglement or other more dangerous two out configuration. He lands on someone's roof miraculously not hurting himself and not making any property damage either. Back at the DZ proudly showing his "adventure video" without showing any strong feelings.
The guy could have died 3 times this jump!
I hope you'll post this one too.

Western Region Jan 2011
A picture is worth a thousand words.
In this 'incident' both jumpers each have 18-19 jumps. They had been turned away from wearing a camera at one DZ so they found another one that didn't ask. They both rented rigs and warned that the rental rigs weren't freefly friendly.
"Cameraman" tries to backfly so he can "get the shot." The non-freefly friendly rig has other ideas and he has a premature deployment.
Although this incident is related to the non-freefly rig issue, the jumper would not have been freeflying/backflying had he not been attempting to get a shot of his buddy from below.
Note the buddy lower than him; he could have easily fallen through his buddy's canopy at the cutaway. The buddy could have just as easily hit the cameraman during the premature deployment.
Had the camera not been there, this would likely not have happened.
Chain of 3;
-Low time jumpers
-Non-Freefly friendly rig
-Camera

Southeastern Region Feb 4, 2012
This guy was on the plane with us and had two new {small format cameras] on his helmet. He was filming his deployments and solo jump.
He kept asking if the cameras was on and was fidling with it when the door opened. He jumped out and his helmet flew off because he forgot to snap it on.
He recovered everything but the cameras and helmet was badly damaged. It could have hit a house or a car.

Mid-Atlantic Region Feb 25, 2012
I thought you might like to add this to the list.., we had a 55 jump individual jumping with a Go-Pro who was seen cutting away almost immediately after main deployment.... he reported that the camera entangled in some fashion with the risers, "shreddding" them and spinning the canopy up. He landed without incident under a reserve, losing his freebag and camera, ruining a set of risers but quite proud that he kept his handles.

Southwest Region March 6, 2012
Witnessed this weekend in XXXX
Jumper with more than 500 jumps and a coach rating jumps small format camera (GoPro) for first time. Camera mounted on shoe, facing up. After much deliberations with several experienced camera fliers. "Your shoe is as far from your lines as you can get"
- According to jumper: practiced several times with ShoeCam on the ground.
At the 20 minute call is all geared up.
Asks two experienced jumpers to check his gear while waiting for a solo.
Asks for another gear check at 9,000 ft from a load organizer on the jump (With helmet fastened and goggles on).
Turns on camera and when the door is opened the camera does not start recording.
Ignores the camera, does a solo.
Land uneventfully on the DZ.
After getting back to the packing hangar and taking off the rig, begins fiddling with the camera...SD card was resting comfortably in the gear bag.

I know your thread is for all the crap you should not do, but this might go into the "take this shit seriously" pile.
Be a student:
- Get a gear check or two.
- Do solos before jumping in groups.
- Mount the camera initially in places where snags are less likely: shoe, wrist
- Get competent help. Not DZ.com.
- Practice, practice, practice.

Maybe we can put together a procedure for FPC "First Photo Course" like the WS course. If we make it, and have camera flyer course (even if its just a 30 minute briefing and a solo jump) it might save some people and in time will become standard. Don't need more BSRs.
(Some dropzones do have camera flyers with a standard camera course/requirement)

Central Region August, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p7FPCqbZ-M


Take a look at the above linked video and then return & read on.


THAT is any demo jumpers worst nightmare, dropping something from altitude that could hurt or even kill a spectator...it was caused by a GoPro.

At the beginning of the EAA AirVenture Oshkosh airshow this year the people from GoPro had a HUGE marketing program in place. They had a large semi sized mobile facility that had several wide screen TVs going showing all the great things one can do with this little camera.

They ALWAYS had several hundred people gathered around hoping to win a give-a-way or buying one of the units...GoPro had a great bunch of people there and in speaking with one I know they had a very successful time at the convention, I think I remember 1/4 million in sales being tossed out as a number.

One of the ways they were promoting the product was to outfit the performers with a Hero2 or more and then edit & playback that footage on the outdoor displays. Quite effective as it was very interesting to see the perspectives from the performers view ~ and the spectators just ate it up.


On the other hand...THIS grumpy ole fart saw problems from the get-go.
One of our more experienced demo jumpers was damn near out of control...'jump a cool little camera HERE, that WILL let me do just as they advertise...Be A Hero' ~YOU BET!

Problem is, although we jump with all kinds of extra stuff attached all over us, it's something we practice, something that's well thought out, and something that is actually the REASON for making the jump in the first place. . . attaching a camera with no training only serves to increase the complexity of an already edgy skydive.

It was obvious that my protests were not going to be heeded, after all I jump a camera on demos all the time and have for years.
But then again, I have 6-700 camera jumps and yes I DO turn it on and forget about it...that's obvious to anyone that's ever seen one of my demo vids!

The best I could do was sit everyone down who was jumping a camera for the time and explain a few of the issues 'we have' discussed on these forums... define & warn against GoPro-itus.

By the 2nd day of the show - it was off the chain! People filming our briefing instead of listening, discussing the best shot angle instead of the spot...on & on. A couple of guys even FORGOT gear they needed once we were on board and had to go chasing after our support van to retrieve it...we had ANOTHER long talk that evening.

It did little good, the following day a good friend, long time jumper (42 years) and one of the better demo jumpers I know...shows me his SECOND camera attached to his 'standard Protec'...it's sticking 4-5 inches out off the right side of the helmet on a mount that MUST have been designed to foul parachute deployments!

WTF...I explained how 3 possible things could happen and two of 'em were really bad. Wouldn't be deterred even after I explained in detail how well the noose he created would work and thankfully we'd have footage of his demise!

...he landed ok, but deployment riser smacked that camera so hard the impression of it is in the side of the helmet forever, not such a great shot on that one.

Time to throttle it back...I discussed with the GoPro rep some concerns the next day. Showed him my GoPro mount which is side mounted on an L bracket, with a strong bungee going over it, with a short piece of super-tack holding the whole thing to the helmet so that even IF it were to detach it wouldn't drop on the crowd....overkill the rep thought, but he did go with less that day with regard to where and how attached.

Wasn't only US, as seen in the above attached vid, the Military team also had it's problems. Let me preface by saying these we some of the coolest people and most professional demo jumpers I've ever met...we got along well. I doubt they would take offence to my using this example as a learning tool.

That sequence was only 1/3 of the way through, the flag jumper wearing the camera was supposed to turn 90 and the side-by re-docks.
He himself open and honestly admitted he was concentrating on the shot and missed this cue to turn...thankfully the flag, WITH the heavy weight....landed out in the Pyro field and not on any spectators.

The next morning the airshow briefing was quite concise about things...'Start pulling those cameras OFF the aircraft & jumpers before someone DOES get hurt....do it NOW'

Think about this for a minute...THE BEST professionals in the business were not able to 'set it & forget it' ~ as many of the Norm Kent wanna be n00bs claim they will be able to do.

Make NO mistake about it, adding a camera adds complexity...IF your don't receive training, practice with it, have the right gear to go along with it ~ just a matter of time until something unexpected happens.

It might kill you or someone else..OR it just might end up being hilariously funny. The icing on the weeks cake was the last day, my buddy 'snuck' one more camera jump in.

This time it was a low in front mount. It looked ok and we had a quick re brief on EP's & forgetting it was there. WELL...I'll have to look for it but I have the download, GREAT shot of him coming in for a landing, the sun behind giving surrealistic detail to the shadow ever increasing in size.

Right up until he no flares into a two foot deep puddle of muddy icky drainage water...face first!

Reviewing the vid...hands in the toggles never move until WAY too late, the splash is gut busting funny, especially when all ya hear is ~ 'hope these things are water proof!'


SO...

MY ~advise for beginning camera jumping~

Get good at skydiving FIRST, then get some camera training and use appropriate gear. . .be SAFE, not a HERO!


Holland Sept, 2012
It is being reported that this incident may have been camera/snag related
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

Western Region Oct, 2012
Jumper had 55 jumps/Blicense. Turned on [small format camera] on the heli ride up 'so it wouldn't distract me.'
Exited the heli unstable @ 5k, tossed the PC (unknown altitude)and caught a line on the [small format camera]. Jumper was spinning fast and chopped. Main didn't release so [removed] released the helmet cutaway. Deployed reserve and was OK. Camera was OK too, asking [removed] jumper for copy of footage.

NOT AN INCIDENT
Just a worthwhile video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsEI_6cErbM

Kansas October 2012
Jumper distracted by toe camera.
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4378030#4378030

Germany Oct, 2012
http://www.dropzone.com/...;;page=unread#unread

January 2013, NorCal
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/...0/skydiver-accident/
The small format camera is not related to the gear failure, yet the footage indicates the jumper was focusing more on the camera than on the jump (that ole' distraction thing again), and the instability led to a premature deployment.

March 2013 Western Region
Jumper wearing camera filming his jump partner. Jump partner deployed at 3000, camera flyer roled on his back to film the deploying partner. Stayed to long on his back and CYPRES fired when he pulled out his main to late. Main canopy caught on his [small fomat camera brand deleted] and he landed two parachutes. He got grounded for a week.

April 2013 Southeast Region
Not an incident:
Wingsuit rodeo, rider deploys without dismounting the wingsuit pilot. Pilot chute wraps his head (2x).
https://vimeo.com/64251059

July 2013 SouthEast Region
I watched a newbie on plane at Skydive _______________. She has about 75-80 jumps. First she delayed everyone at the exit because she couldn't see if her camera was recording and then she jumped with her goggles around her neck and she had to put them on in the jump. On her landing she forgot to turn the camera off and was trying to. She got to her brakes too late and had a hard landing. Ambulance came but she was OK.
[moderator note; I edited this email to offer better clarity]

July 2013 Western Region
Tandem student was allowed to wear a [small format camera] on there wrist. On deployment the risers or lines caught on the camera and tore it off the students wrist. Student was slightly cut when the strap tore off. We couldn't find the camera so we don't know what part for sure hit the students wrist.

March 2013 Norway
Wingsuiter had an extension "POV death bar" on the back of his helmet, main entangled with the arm. Post cutaway, the extension also interfered with the reserve deployment. More info:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4468418#4468418

April 2014 East Coast USA
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=4631451#4631451
Although this was not a POV camera, all the same concerns apply.
The synopsis is reserve bridle entanglement with the helmet-mounted camera.

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So in the list are wingsuiters, AFFI's, TI's, swoopers, BASE jumpers, people with over 1k jumps, and a great number are unspecified. On top of that most had significant contributing factors, big ways, "death bars" (an apt name I might add), demo jumps, rodeos, etc etc.

What that means is that it does not correlate to <200 is "more dangerous." And related to my long ass post previously, "you can't fix stupid." Stupid people are going to do stupid things with 50 jumps or with 1,000.

And I'll let it slide for this thread, but hypothetically if it was to be presented to the USPA as "evidence" to influence regulations, you better have dates, names, jump numbers, and witnesses.

And to play the statistics game, say there were 1,000 "incidents" with 0 contributing factors (way overestimation). Over 5 years, the USPA estimates about 3 million per year, so 15 million jumps, let's assume only 1/10th of them had cameras on them (way underestimation). That is .6 per 1k jumps (let's round up in favor of you again) so 1 incident per 1,000 camera jumps. Making "camera incidents" about as common, maybe less common, than cutaways.

Cameras are probably on closer to 30% of jumps, let's about double your report number and make it an even 100, well now, we're getting somewhere around 1 incident per 50,000 camera jumps.

So all of that doesn't consider all the >200 jump folks that have incidents, or all of the contributing factors (i.e. the incident may have occurred sans camera), and it doesn't take long before statistically you are more likely to die jumping, than you are to have a non-fatal "incident" where the camera might have contributed.

Need I say more?

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Dude, there is no point. These people don't care about the math or the logic. If there was a camera present during an incident on a low number jumper it played a role. They have some of the deepest rooted conformation bias I have ever seen.
Gary, Gary, Gary, Would you like to play a game?

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Nobody is going to jail for wearing a camera before 200 jumps, enforce what you want at your own DZ and don't get anyone killed. If you think someone is OK with a camera before 200 jumps then let them do it. If not then a 200 jump BSR is something to point at to back you up, just get ready to hear them bitch about the other person.
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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billvon

***...so again, if you want to prove me wrong, show me the data. there are 15 cameras on every load today, if video was a distraction or dangerous, we would know about it and there would be a ton of evidence to support that claim. still waiting.



OK. Here's one list from one person (DSE) compiled through 2014. 47 incidents. I could add another ~10 if I was good about writing down local (Perris) incidents, but I'm not.

... {snip}



{sigh} It's like this list is like some sort of talisman to many people. Just cite it's existence and you apparently win the discussion.

I broke down that list here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4565386#4565386

I can create a list that could support imposing a 200 jump minimum on each of the following, and I would wager that each would improve over all safety much more than a 200 jump minimum on camera's:
1. wing loading >1.1
2. jump in >18 mph ground winds
3. >90 degree turns below 1000 ft

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What that means is that it does not correlate to <200 is "more dangerous." And related to my long ass post previously, "you can't fix stupid." Stupid people are going to do stupid things with 50 jumps or with 1,000.


Well, then, why require jump numbers for anything, if the big issue is "you can't fix stupid?" Let people with ten jumps do demos. After all, it doesn't matter how many jumps they have - stupid people do stupid things and you can't fix it.
Quote

Cameras are probably on closer to 30% of jumps, let's about double your report number and make it an even 100, well now, we're getting somewhere around 1 incident per 50,000 camera jumps.


That's one person collecting incidents from his one group of friends. Let's say there are 50 people in the country like DSE (experienced, respected cameramen) who could collect a similar set of reports - that means we are at 1 incident per 1000 jumps, which is something USPA should certainly be looking at.

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billvon

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What that means is that it does not correlate to <200 is "more dangerous." And related to my long ass post previously, "you can't fix stupid." Stupid people are going to do stupid things with 50 jumps or with 1,000.


Well, then, why require jump numbers for anything, if the big issue is "you can't fix stupid?" Let people with ten jumps do demos. After all, it doesn't matter how many jumps they have - stupid people do stupid things and you can't fix it.
***Cameras are probably on closer to 30% of jumps, let's about double your report number and make it an even 100, well now, we're getting somewhere around 1 incident per 50,000 camera jumps.


That's one person collecting incidents from his one group of friends. Let's say there are 50 people in the country like DSE (experienced, respected cameramen) who could collect a similar set of reports - that means we are at 1 incident per 1000 jumps, which is something USPA should certainly be looking at.

Those incidents were from all over the world "one groups of friends" lol yeah right.

On top of that, I kept rounding and round and rounding to make the stats as bad as possible for camera incidents, and I got 0.6 per 1,000 jumps, then I ARBITRARILY doubled it to give you an even 1 per 1,000. And it includes EVERYONE, with more than 200 jumps, doing demo jumps, swooping, doing dumb shit like Mr Bills. And after all of that, 1 per 1,000.

Here is all the stuff I did to get the 1 per 1,000 number.

1 - Estimated the number of jumps with cameras as 1 in 10 (A HUGE UNDERESTIMATION)
2 - Increased the only data of incidents you have by TEN TIMES
3 - Included ALL incidents, even those for people with more than 200.
4 - ARBITRARILY DOUBLED the incident rate.

And I still only got 1 in 1,000.

To get 1 in 50k.
1 - Estimated the number of jumps with camera's as 3 in 10. (possibly still an underestimation)
2 - DOUBLED the only data you have.
3 - Still included EVERY incident, even those demos, >200 jumps folks, and incidents where the camera probably didn't contribute.

Good Lord, 1 in 50k is probably a conservative number. Just because 2 or 3 people have died as a direct result of a camera (all with over 200 jumps that I know of) doesn't "make it a problem." More people than that have committed suicide jumping or been murdered by having their gear tampered with but I don't see the USPA requiring mental health counseling or criminal background checks (lol :D) before jumping.

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Its a waste of time engaging a couple of people with low time in the sport and thus who have never held any positions where they are responsible for the lives of others in the sky, especially those, as history has proved, are of low experience.

I think we have a couple of trolls here who are just trying to get bites.

Skydiving is ruthless on those who are unprepared, inexperienced or just stupid. It makes sense to impose arbitrary limits on some activities as a starting point on the learning curve.

Its a pretty successful approach when dealing with a varied and disparate group of people like skydivers. Bitter experience has shown us that this is the most logical way to deal with inexperience.

Low timers don't appear on many reports simply because they are prevented by our limits from taking these risks. I would wager if we removed these limits, the incident rate in this group would increase rapidly. That is not acceptable, so why take the risk?

If history has taught us one thing, it is that proceeding with caution is a much better policy rather than the "damn the torpedoes" approach. Slow evolution is far preferable to filling in the craters after the event.

Skydiving is dangerous enough anyway, and as one who IS responsible for the lives of others, I prefer to take whatever action mitigates the risks to my clients and friends.

To my knowledge, no one has missed out on any fun because of this. Every broken bone I have prevented means something to me, but its not something I can quantify. A broken bone, to the individual though, is a disaster, with effects far beyond the DZ.

To the trolls:

Maybe the time will come when these limits will be relaxed, and if it can happen, it will. Till then, enjoy all the other bits of skydiving that you can safely. There is plenty of time.

If you want to push your agenda, put yourself forward for positions where you can influence events, rather than sitting on the sidelines sniping.

We've seen your arguments before....nothing new there.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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It isn't that no one wants to be "safe" it is that the 200 jumps before you can use a gopro is seen as excessive, very excessive. Especially that it is a "oh you have 200, go grab a Aura3 and a full camera setup." 150, "ohhh no it'll kill you."

The data provided also does not support the perceived risk, at a maximum we are looking at 1 non-fatal camera "incident" per 10's of thousands of jumps. It is perhaps one of the least dangerous things to do outside of small rw jumps.

If there was training involved then it would make more sense, but taking someone with 50 jumps and the correct mentoring is far better than someone with 200 and none, for anything, crew, freeflying, and cameras.

It is in the same vane as "oh you have 500 jumps, and 2 were night jumps? You're an "expert" now." It just doesn't make sense.

If there is one thing to take away from the whole thing it is "make a course that teaches something, don't just pick a number and assume that alone is any guarantee of competence."

I suggest you read my long ass rant on the previous page (or 2).

And I don't think anyone is trolling, I'm pretty confident everyone advocating for more relaxed standards (myself included) has already far exceeded the requirements.

The USPA also has a huge credibility problem for both creating and enforcing safety standards, # S&TA swooping into people and nearly killing them in a landing area, then doing nothing about it.

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A note on the "ruthlessness of skydiving."

No one is doubting its danger, that is even part of the appeal for some (many?).

It use to be ruthless, extremely so, but today the fatality rate for non-swoopers is somewhere around 1 in 400,000 jumps. (feel free to check my math on that one, it has been a long time since I did it). For students, improper (or none) EPs and not understanding how to fly a pattern and land are the biggest risks. For the dozens of broken bones for each fatality, the majority are poor canopy skills and what could be described as "controlled flight into terrain" to borrow a term from our aviation friends. And it is seldom complicated by cameras, statistically irrelevantly so. My own contribution to the bone yard was at jump 90 something, I was landing in turbulence and my normal flare did nothing, and I didn't PLF sufficiently (and no, I didn't have a camera, wish I had though) Someone told me "you should have stabbed out," to which I replied "what is that?" I was one of those low time poor canopy skill injuries I've mentioned.

Gone are the days of the first 100 jumps being the most dangerous of your career. Now the vast majority of fatalities are jumpers with several hundred to thousands of jumps. (and it has been that way long before the gopro).

From the last 30 fatalities on the USPA website from June 2013 to July 2015 these are the jump number data (includes one AFFI and Student and one TI and Student).

Mean = 1,543
Median = 639
Mode w/n=3 (500).
500+ jumps accounted for over 60%
200+ jumps accounted for 80%

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Here is DSE's list boiled down, every single one.

So we are talking about jump numbers being the issue for camera jumps, and if it mitigates risk. For that reason, an experienced jumper who has a problem doing advanced jumps means that jump number is not a contributing factor. I use "irrelevant" a lot in that sense. Also, of some of the low time jumpers who did have problems, they responded with appropriate EPs and landed w/o incident. Also there were several where the camera was a non-contributing factor.

For the purpose of determining if jump number contributed to an incident, and there is no jump number or time in sport listed, the incident is irrelevant.

There were several "non-incidents" reported, my favorite is number 35.

Also, there was A LOT of blatant disregard for basic safety standards, this is the "can't fix stupid crowd." If someone is doing stupid things, like flying head down with 30 jumps, the camera is not the problem.

In the whole list, there is 1 bonafide low time jumper with a camera, not doing something exceedingly stupid, who has a problem that an experienced jumper would have been better able to handle. It is number 24. He chopped when he probably didn't have to.... Seen low time jumpers chop because of a long snivel and line twists, but this was indeed caused by the camera.

After reviewing the list, and the very low probability of having any camera problem for any jumper (1 in 10's of thousands), I stand firm in my assessment that a 200 jump requirement to use a gopro is very excessive and contributes essentially zero to the safety of our sport.

Please forgive any errors, it took a long time to go through all that. Enjoy :P

1 – BASE jumper being stupid (gross disregard for basic safety practices)
2 – Paraglider pilot being stupid (gross disregard for basic safety practices)
3 – Exited without goggles on (who cares, I’ve done that w/o a camera)
4 – Doesn’t mention how camera contributed. Jump number not noted (Irrelevant)
5 – Gross disregard for landing pattern (can’t fix stupid)
6 - <100 jump wonders sit flying, went low (I’ve see that happen w/o cameras, and both fired their AADs)
7 – Tandem instructor allowed student to have camera (TI’s fault)
8 – Camera may have delayed EPs, dude didn’t even pull his reserve handle b/c he had a skyhook (can’t fix stupid)
9 – Same paraglider pilot as before, swooping with a WS at 200 jumps, camera allegedly not involved (can’t fix stupid)
10 - >200 jumps (Irrelevant)
11 – Took too long in the door (seriously this was the problem reported) Jump number not noted (Irrelevant).
12 – AFFI went low (Irrelevant)
13 – TI with handicam filmed a chop (Irrelevant/can’t fix stupid)
14 – Jump number unknown, 3 months in sport, flying head down, deployed head down, one line snagged camera, he cleared it (can’t fix stupid)
15 – Misrouted chest strap (I’ve seen that 3 times with no cameras involved)
16 – 200 jumps, planned downwind landing, 180 turn on landing to abort downwind (can’t fix stupid/irrelevant)
17 – 4 way freefly, jump number not noted, the guy is stated as not being very “heads up” anyway, the complaint was “he was distracted” (Irrelevant/can’t fix stupid)
18 – 133 jumps, took helmet off to talk to camera on final (can’t fix stupid/see PD’s new favorite VK photo)
19 – 112 jumps, had a bad landing (I’ve seen someone with several hundred do exactly what was described/ Irrelevant)
20 – TI with PRO rating and handicam filmed EPs (Irrelevant/can’t fix stupid)
21 – Jump number not noted, risers broke camera off helmet but spectra tether made him have to take his helmet off (Irrelevant/also spectra tethers are stupid)
22 – Camera broke off on impact with door, had a bad exit (Irrelevant, a bad exit is not an “incident”)
23 – 50 jumps, landed off after a heli jump (I’m kinda on the fence on this one, not sure jump number really mattered, and landing off is not an “incident”)
24 – 66 jumps, brake line wrapped around camera, chopped instead of trying to clear it (Yay you get one! / can’t fix stupid)
25 – 65 jumps, flying head down, chops b/c of camera? (can’t fix stupid)
26 – Had line twists and cleared them at 2.6k, jump number not noted (Irrelevant)
27 – Bad exit fiddling with camera, jump number not noted (Irrelevant)
28 – YouTube Link, head down flying a tube, camera pulled reserve on exit (Irrelevant, highly experienced jumpers)
29 – Didn’t bring an altimeter on 13 min call, jumped anyway (Irrelevant, I’ve done that w/o a camera, wasn’t going to jump but a AFFI gave me theirs since they were doing a clear and pull)
30 – 31 jumps, camera tangled with lines on final due to head movement, hard landing w/o injury (Kinda relevant, this same thing killed an experienced swooper, def a camera problem but jump number is irrelevant)
31 – Cluster f*** of a 4 way (noted as such even before the jump), passed canopies in freefall, jumper apparently unfazed by near death experience (Irrelevant, camera minor to non-contributing factor/can’t fix stupid)
32 – 2 way, both sub 20 jumps, backflying, premature deployment (can’t fix stupid)
33 – Jump number not noted, camera came off b/c chinstrap not on (Irrelevant, saw this happen on a WS with someone with 1,000+ jumps including several hundred with same helmet and gopro setup, camera was recovered, actually filmed a nice exit and was hilarious)
34 – 55 jumps, camera broken off and damaged risers during deployment, correct EPs, landed without incident (Irrelevant, jump number did not contribute)
35 – More than 500 jumps, consulted with experienced camera flyers, the “incident” was he forgot his SD card, uneventful skydive (Are you kidding me?!)
36 – Skyhawks demo jumper dropped a flag at an airshow (lol what? Irrelevant)
37 – Broken link, no data, no description (Irrelevant)
38 – Main entanglement with camera, chopped main and helmet, landed uneventfully (Irrelevant, jump number did no contribute)
39 – Tertiary rig test jumper, shows how RPC bridal could wrap helmet cam(Irrelevant)
40 - Broken link, no data, no description (Irrelevant)
41 - Broken link, no data, no description (Irrelevant)
42 – Broken link, jump number not noted, jumper allegedly “distracted by camera” (Irrelevant)
43 – Jump number not noted, went low watching buddy deploy, AAD fire (Irrelevant/can’t fix stupid)
44 – WS rodeo, deployed w/o getting off, PC bridal got burbled, I think we’ve all seen this video (Irrelevant, we know that is stupid now and jump number of rider did not contribute)
45 – Took too long in door and exited w/o goggles on, then tried to turn camera off on final, hard landing (Irrelevant/can’t fix stupid)
46 – Tandem student was allowed to have a camera (TI’s fault)
48 – WS with “death bar” (Irrelevant, death bars are a known risk, and an experienced jumper)
49 – Broken link, jump number not noted, apparently PC bridal entangled with camera, described as “not a POV camera,” so foot or chest mount? (Irrelevant)

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I will tell you one example I witnessed. A couple years ago had a kid graduate AFF at our place but traveled all over the country for work. Probably did his first 10-12 jumps at my place. Was up in the NorthWest - bought a GoPro from a gear store at maybe 25ish jumps. Put it on his helmet and no one questioned him - got it riser slapped off on the first jump. Bought a second one but came back to Texas. Went to another Texas dz and was so busy putting it on his helmet he ended up rushing to the plane that he forgot his altimeter. He was too embarassed to say anything at this new dz with mostly tandems that his solution was to count to 60 and then pull. (I swear - he told me that personally.) He pulled a bit low and scared himself.

Did a second jump at that dz with another newbie. Was so focused on videoing (by his own admission) that they collided with each other and almost had a canopy collision on opening. I think he lost the camera again on this jump.

He showed up at my dz a couple of weeks later wearing a camera and I told him no. He didn't blink an eye and took it right off. He admitted to me later after a couple of beers all of the above stories and how he was almost relieved for me to tell him no because by this point he recognized that I knew what I was talking about and he had no business jumping with a camera.

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It isn't that no one wants to be "safe" it is that the 200 jumps before you can use a gopro is seen as excessive, very excessive. Especially that it is a "oh you have 200, go grab a Aura3 and a full camera setup." 150, "ohhh no it'll kill you."



If anyone is crying about 200 skydives maybe they need to pick up the pace and do more skydiving. Nobody thinks that numbers are magical, quite being ridiculous, everyone is tired trying to pick and choose who can or can't do something so we just say, "200 jumps". Until then go work on actual skydiving skills.

Are you an S&TA or DZ Manager/DZO?
"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

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it is that the 200 jumps before you can use a gopro is seen as excessive, very excessive



By who?

The mad skillz 100 jump wonder who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Or by hundreds of DZOs/STA's around the world?

Just because you say so, doesn't make it valid.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I first jumped my camera when I had 120 jumps. DZ doesn't care.

I made few rules for myself. Once in the plane, camera does not exist. Once door opens, I push one button. No matter what happens (beep, no beep, whatever), camera does not exist. It's a normal jump, as far as I am concerned. What does exist, is proper gear checks and jump planning. If camera does not work, does not turn on, does not film, oh well.

I also agreed with myself, in case of any entanglements, I will break off the camera and toss it. Or I will undo the helmet and toss it. Sure, it's expensive, But I can afford a new one if I need to buy it.

Jumps were pretty uneventful, camera footage was great, and I did not touch it until I touched down on the ground.

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