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Tigerfly

A license jumping camera....

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I have only jumped there as a visitor, although my wife worked there for a couple of months. It was pretty busy and while I may not have been aware of all the supervision, it could have been there and I just didn't see it. I agree TK is pretty on-the-ball, and we had some good chats. My experience was that there was a lot going on and the loading area was remote from the manifest area, etc. That is my basic point.
Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

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On another note....to the OP.

As a skydiver, we should always be looking out for each other on the DZ.

Whether its a friend, stranger, newbie or old fart, if we see something that concerns us, especially safety wise, it is beholden on all of us to take some action/say something/bring it to the attention of someone in authority on the DZ.

Skydiving is terribly unforgiving of mistakes.

You've had plenty of feedback on this thread, which shows you which direction to take.

The fact that this is your husband, and you owe him some loyalty, is irrelevant.

This is a clear safety issue, and as such, in this instance, you need to bring this to the attention of someone in authority on the DZ, if he goes ahead with his plan and nobody picks up on it.

It might, (probably will) cause a shitfight between you, but its a bit late when he's busted up in the hospital, or worse, for you to regret not speaking out.

For his sake, your sake, and the sake of the DZ and other jumpers, you need to make sure he doesn't get in the plane with a camera on his head.

This scenario has been played out hundreds of times before, and the outcome is often bad.

As a DZO, I would be really annoyed if an incident occurred, and someone who had prior concerns had kept silent. Never be afraid to speak up.

I think I speak for every DZO in that regard.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Yeah, my husbands thing is "I'm not going to be trying to shoot footage and get distracted...just wear it and see what I get." He also says "we jumped out of planes (static line in Army) with nods on our helmets and lots of gear...I will be fine." Yes. He did that...but the way i see it is the Army was his CAREER. He had to jump that stuff. Skydiving is a HOBBY and while we want to have maximum fun, I also, along with everyone else, wants to live to jump again and not be injured. If he does put the camera on his helmet, I will make darn sure that he talks to instructors and TK about it. If he doesn't, then I WILL.

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The way I look at it, if you try to go down the "you'll get hurt" argument, he'll always have a reason why he will not, they all do. It's pointless.
I'd try a different approach, just explain to him how, if he does, most likely everybody will think he's an idiot and he'll be outcast pretty soon. He's not going to get any "cool-points" except maybe from people even less experienced than him, all the "cool people", the load organizers etc., if somehow he manages to sneak one on a load a few times, will not want to have anything to do with him and that kind of reputation is hard to shake off in skydiving. Take it from one who knows. ;)
Tell him that kind of people most often end up jumping solo or with another couple of friends, it's always them, no one invites them on their jumps, and every time they make a mistake that usually would cause only a friendly laugh, when done by these people gets much more nastier comments and reactions, and again, this sort of reputation lasts hundreds for jumps.

All of that because someone doesn't want to wait the year or so it takes to rack up 200 jumps on average, all other considerations of risks aside, which are all correct but to some people they're not as effective as positive peer pressure, it's just not worth it. IMHO.
I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

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What he needs to envision is NOT when everything is going normally... what he needs to envision is what happens when non-standard things start to happen on a load...

- Rushing to meet a back to back
- Go arounds that interrupt your normal prep procedures
- some minor gear issue that happens in the plane
- monkeying with camera after opening or prior to landing
- monkeying around with video issues just prior to exit, or during climb or whatever... he might say "oh well if its not working I'll just forget about it and focus on my other gear" NOW, but people are funny creatures, get target fixated, and boom, next thing you know you are in freefall with a go-pro you got working at the last minute but a loose or mis-routed chest strap.

At this point the guy needs to be building out his muscle memory for gear needs. No matter what he says he is not there with 30 jumps.

Also, his video is going to be shit for a long time to come because he does not have the air skills. Why does he feel the need to shoot video of little dots in the sky RIGHT NOW?

I shot a lot of video and even when I started with around 1000 jumps the addition of video crap added a fair amount of complexity to the exit sequence and not a little stress... the stress went away but I always made a concerted effort to divide my prep into "save my life preparation" and "make some video $$ preparation".

I am sorry to say it, but your husband sounds like the type that, when I was still skydiving, would show up with a particular attitude and we would mentally categorize as "well, that guy is gonna eventually hurt or kill himself" and we were invariably right. Please get him to prove that assumption wrong and leave the camera alone for quite a few more jumps.

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

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Quote

I mean you're lumping low turns and swooping into the same category of risk as wearing a GoPro... one is the number one killer of skydivers, the other just isn't...


And if you tell a 100 jump wonder who has started swooping you will hear things like:

"It's not the number of jumps that matter, it's the skill of the jumper. Swooping is much safer than doing video, because your parachute is already open and you're safe under canopy. And besides, I have a lot of high speed skills because I ride motorcycles. Getting advice here is counterproductive - you have a bunch of hard liners who are telling me to wait, to get more experience first, and I have no time for them. My friend knows someone who says I am good to go."

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>Yeah, my husbands thing is "I'm not going to be trying to shoot footage and get
>distracted...just wear it and see what I get."

I thought that around jump #2000. I put a chest camera on and did some bigways, figuring I'd just "turn it on and forget it." Twice I just blundered into someone during the approach. The organizer noticed and came over to ask me what the hell was going on. Then she saw the camera. "Lose the camera," she said. I had all the arguments your husband has. "Lose the camera or you're off the dive," she said. It was distracting me.

Now, this was after 2000 jumps, of which about 500 were bigways and ~1000 were AFF. And when you are doing AFF you are a LOT more distracted. So I figured I was fine. I wasn't.

>He also says "we jumped out of planes (static line in Army) with nods on our helmets
>and lots of gear...I will be fine."

I've worked as a jumpmaster for military jumpers. They jump with a lot of crap - but they are also under a LOT of supervision. Sport jumping is nothing like military freefall.

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I'll be the voice of dissent. If you (I'm using "you" to mean "people" just btw) aren't an idiot jumping a gopro isn't an issue. If you are an idiot (many people are) then skydiving as a whole is going to be a problem for you (as it is for many jumpers).

A Protec is a snag hazard (look at those big ol protruding ear pieces), a analog altimeter (or digital on a hand mount) is a snag hazard, your emergency handles are a snag hazard, your shoes can be a snag hazard if you have hooks for the laces (there is even a friday freakout where a guy got lines wrapped around his foot, making your feet verified snag hazards), long hair isn't just a snag hazard, it is a cutaway hazard (think chunk of hair in a 3 ring trying to release), just having a camera mount is a snag hazard (don't believe me, try getting in a wind tunnel with one that isn't completely covered in tape).

Jumping snag free is a myth, and a gopro is a pretty small increase in risk. On top of that they often break and clear themselves (seen it happen several times, and never seen one hang up without breaking, though I'm not saying that doesn't happen, it has plenty of times).

Now what the real idiots do is not just jump a gopro, but they try and be photographers. If you are changing how you jump because of your gopro and trying to get a cool shot, you are an idiot. Trust me, if you are strapping on a gopro for the first time, nothing you are doing is worth recording other than for posterity.

Before the USPA got its panties in a bunch over cameras I was jumping a gopro before I had an A, and I have my pov of my checkout jump. But I wasn't an idiot, and I just turned it on before the door opened and forgot it was there until after I landed. And to no great surprise, I never had a problem, not even a hint of a problem. I was told when I got it (because not being an idiot, I asked for permission from my instructors) that "if it gets hung up, get rid of your helmet." Nothing has changed many years and umpteen jumps later. Omg, and now I have a real camera and don't have a chin cup cutaway, I must have a death wish :S

So yeah, Safety Sue is going to give you a hard time because now there is an edict from the only governing body in skydiving in the US that you need 200 jumps before you can use a camera, so liability is stacked against them if they permitted you to. Is it lame, yeah, but is it also the "law of the land," yeah.

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Anachronist

I'll be the voice of dissent. If you (I'm using "you" to mean "people" just btw) aren't an idiot jumping a gopro isn't an issue. If you are an idiot (many people are) then skydiving as a whole is going to be a problem for you (as it is for many jumpers).

A Protec is a snag hazard (look at those big ol protruding ear pieces), a analog altimeter (or digital on a hand mount) is a snag hazard, your emergency handles are a snag hazard, your shoes can be a snag hazard if you have hooks for the laces (there is even a friday freakout where a guy got lines wrapped around his foot, making your feet verified snag hazards), long hair isn't just a snag hazard, it is a cutaway hazard (think chunk of hair in a 3 ring trying to release), just having a camera mount is a snag hazard (don't believe me, try getting in a wind tunnel with one that isn't completely covered in tape).

Jumping snag free is a myth, and a gopro is a pretty small increase in risk. On top of that they often break and clear themselves (seen it happen several times, and never seen one hang up without breaking, though I'm not saying that doesn't happen, it has plenty of times).

Now what the real idiots do is not just jump a gopro, but they try and be photographers. If you are changing how you jump because of your gopro and trying to get a cool shot, you are an idiot. Trust me, if you are strapping on a gopro for the first time, nothing you are doing is worth recording other than for posterity.

Before the USPA got its panties in a bunch over cameras I was jumping a gopro before I had an A, and I have my pov of my checkout jump. But I wasn't an idiot, and I just turned it on before the door opened and forgot it was there until after I landed. And to no great surprise, I never had a problem, not even a hint of a problem. I was told when I got it (because not being an idiot, I asked for permission from my instructors) that "if it gets hung up, get rid of your helmet." Nothing has changed many years and umpteen jumps later. Omg, and now I have a real camera and don't have a chin cup cutaway, I must have a death wish :S

So yeah, Safety Sue is going to give you a hard time because now there is an edict from the only governing body in skydiving in the US that you need 200 jumps before you can use a camera, so liability is stacked against them if they permitted you to. Is it lame, yeah, but is it also the "law of the land," yeah.



OK, I'll bite!!!

Please tell us how many broken/smashed/marmalised idiots you have picked/scraped up off the ground?

You know, the ones with blood, bones, brains and guts hanging out.

And do tell us how many lives you are responsible for, every minute, of every day, at the dropzone.

And please tell us hardliners your foolproof method of identifying idiots, and how to make our DZs idiot proof.

It would help.

Your advice doesn't.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Just remember the mantra that some people confuse luck with skill. Sometimes that luck is that one is, in fact, a natural at something. Maybe he is. But it's pretty clear that most people aren't, and telling them how easy it is just sets them up for problems.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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obelixtim



And please tell us hardliners your foolproof method of identifying idiots, and how to make our DZs idiot proof.



There isn't one, and since the USPA has issued its edict, DZO's have no choice but to enforce it or expose themselves to liability.

As for the rest, if that sort of stuff picks at your heartstrings, you need to find a new hobby. You know what is really messed up? Not adults who have chosen to participate in a dangerous and highly lethal sport, kids, crushed and burned in cars because their parents were drunk/texting/etc #EMS, so if you want to play the gore game I'm pretty sure I've got you beat.

And I'll go on to make a wager. No one reading this forum has EVER seen someone (non-BASE) go in because of a GoPro.

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In regard to wmw999, maybe you're right, but I prefer to think that I'm "not an idiot" rather than "naturally inclined," and yes, most people are idiots.

The whole "is my GoPro on?" boggles my mind. When I started jumping one it was the GoPro1. Only a handful of people had them, and most of those were camera flyers. Anyway, no one asked if their GoPro was on, because using two buttons without looking at them was pretty simple. But apparently other folks have a hard time with that. It didn't even cross my mind that there would be any reason to ask until people started doing it.

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Anachronist

***

And please tell us hardliners your foolproof method of identifying idiots, and how to make our DZs idiot proof.



There isn't one, and since the USPA has issued its edict, DZO's have no choice but to enforce it or expose themselves to liability.

As for the rest, if that sort of stuff picks at your heartstrings, you need to find a new hobby. You know what is really messed up? Not adults who have chosen to participate in a dangerous and highly lethal sport, kids, crushed and burned in cars because their parents were drunk/texting/etc #EMS, so if you want to play the gore game I'm pretty sure I've got you beat.

And I'll go on to make a wager. No one reading this forum has EVER seen someone (non-BASE) go in because of a GoPro.

And where do you think the 200 jump number came from?

Randomly selected?

That number has been generally accepted around the world, for years before USPA issued its edict. Do you know why?

Designed deliberately to annoy those with mad skilz?

Skydiving has been my sport, my profession, my hobby since 1974.

It sort of ruins my day when someone smashes themselves up on the DZ, sometimes for no fault of their own. It really annoys me when said event occurs through stupidity or carelessness. I'm not there to babysit people, but it is sometimes necessary. I accept that. Its my job. Part of the deal.

I also pretty much accepted early on that it was a dangerous activity done by consenting adults. Accidents/incidents/injuries and death can happen at any time. I've seen too many, and its my job to deal with the aftermath. I'd prefer not to have to do that, because yes, it ruins my day.

Skydiving only exists because a few (very few in fact) people are prepared to take responsibility for the lives of the people in their care, on the DZ, and it has always been that way.

As to your wager....you've lost. Watched a mad skilz dude at a boogie hook it in with a go pro. He was lucky (or maybe not) because he lived (now in a wheelchair) Filming his shadow!!!

And you didn't answer my question. How many lives have you taken responsibility for on the DZ?

I'll wager the answer, for you, is a big, fat zero.

You post does nothing but enable the inexperienced, gullible or idiotic to try something that in the early stages of jumping is beyond their capability.

Try walking in the shoes of your DZOs for a few years, and then come here and give your (valid) opinion.

As someone else has as their avatar, "the rules are written in blood". They aren't just pulled out of someones arse. The people who make them are skydivers too. Don't forget that.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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>I'll be the voice of dissent. If you (I'm using "you" to mean "people" just btw) aren't
>an idiot jumping a gopro isn't an issue.

I can think of several people who ran into problems jumping cameras, me included. Most weren't idiots. (People might think I am an idiot, but at the time I was an organizer and an AFF instructor - and even that wasn't enough "insulation" against such mistakes.) It took a concerted effort to learn to jump with the camera safely.

>Jumping snag free is a myth, and a gopro is a pretty small increase in risk.

Agreed. The snag hazard is a minor factor.

>Now what the real idiots do is not just jump a gopro, but they try and be
>photographers. If you are changing how you jump because of your gopro and trying to
>get a cool shot, you are an idiot.

Then pretty much everyone who jumps with a Gopro is an idiot.

>Before the USPA got its panties in a bunch over cameras I was jumping a gopro before
>I had an A, and I have my pov of my checkout jump. But I wasn't an idiot, and I just
>turned it on before the door opened and forgot it was there until after I landed.

No, you didn't. If a meteor had hit a mile away while you were jumping, you would have thought "I hope my Gopro got that!" If you deployed and had an entanglement you would have thought about your Gopro.

The biggest myth out there is "I will just turn it on and forget it." You can't. (And if you really CAN forget it, you shouldn't be jumping, because you're probably going to forget something more important.)

> I must have a death wish

Not at all. You were lucky. So was I, many times in my skydiving career. First time doing CRW at 30 jumps with an unmodified 9 cell main? That was dumb. Didn't mean I had a death wish, just means I survived doing something dumb.

BASE jumping by myself without a ground crew? Dumb. The fact that I survived does not make it any more of a good idea.

Doing tandem flybys with a wingsuit? Very stupid. I survived - but that doesn't mean that therefore flying by a tandem with a wingsuit is safe, or a good idea. You might think that rules against swooping tandems are "lame" and that "I did it and I'm not an idiot therefore it's safe." You might lament Safety Sue, that talentless non-swooping hack, telling you you can't do it. You might even point out the fact that there has never been a fatality due to a wingsuiter swooping a tandem. Doesn't change the fact that it's unsafe.

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Anachronist

***

And please tell us hardliners your foolproof method of identifying idiots, and how to make our DZs idiot proof.



There isn't one, and since the USPA has issued its edict, DZO's have no choice but to enforce it or expose themselves to liability.

As for the rest, if that sort of stuff picks at your heartstrings, you need to find a new hobby. You know what is really messed up? Not adults who have chosen to participate in a dangerous and highly lethal sport, kids, crushed and burned in cars because their parents were drunk/texting/etc #EMS, so if you want to play the gore game I'm pretty sure I've got you beat.

And I'll go on to make a wager. No one reading this forum has EVER seen someone (non-BASE) go in because of a GoPro.

It happened at Elsinore a few weeks ago.

You can owe me.

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Besides the obvious BRS violations, and that TK and everyone else at the dropzone is going to stop him from wearing the camera.....what kinda of "badass" footage does he really expect to capture with 30 jumps? Whatever he records is going to be far away, out of frame, shaky, and boring. Trying to focus on getting video at his experience level is just stupid. If he actually cares about being a decent jumper, he should be working on his basic skills, with somebody else wearing the camera.

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>what kinda of "badass" footage does he really expect to capture with 30 jumps?

To someone with 30 jumps, any video of their skydive is badass, quality or not. And it also means being able to post a video to Facebook to say "look at this! I'm skydiving!" - without having to pay for a video guy.

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So you were a superstar AFF student wearing a camera! You were't an idiot, so the rules don't apply to you! AWESOME! I couldn't be happier for you getting that sweet pov of your checkdive....whatever use that waste of harddrive space is to anyone?

You don't want rules stopping people from jumping cameras. Ok. What if it wasn't a tiny gopro? What if he wanted to use a fullsize dslr or video camera?

Trying to make a point that since you can't entirely eliminate snag hazards, and therefore should not hesitate to ADD MORE snag hazards only illustrates your lack of risk management. Your logic is terribly flawed and dangerous to anyone that you may end up coaching.

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And another one. Guess you didn't go to your dz's Safety Day presentation this year. At SDAZ last February, a very experienced jumper hooked his GoPro with his steering line while making a front riser turn to final and impacted in a hard turn 2 seconds later. Front risering technique aside, without the camera on his helmet he would still be here. Scroll about halfway down the first page of comments and you'll see Bryan Burke's statement about this incident: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4782260;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

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Anachronist

***

And please tell us hardliners your foolproof method of identifying idiots, and how to make our DZs idiot proof.



There isn't one, and since the USPA has issued its edict, DZO's have no choice but to enforce it or expose themselves to liability.

As for the rest, if that sort of stuff picks at your heartstrings, you need to find a new hobby. You know what is really messed up? Not adults who have chosen to participate in a dangerous and highly lethal sport, kids, crushed and burned in cars because their parents were drunk/texting/etc #EMS, so if you want to play the gore game I'm pretty sure I've got you beat.

And I'll go on to make a wager. No one reading this forum has EVER seen someone (non-BASE) go in because of a GoPro.a little more than a year ago, in Eloy, my friend Mathias went in mostly because of his GoPro (at least it was an important part of the equation). I didn't see it from my eyes, but I saw the video. Just before impact you could see the shadow of his steering line and toggle caught in the GoPro
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Btw, the camera he wants to jump is not a GoPro. Picture attached. This thing actually looks even more dangerous. There is a big gap between the helmet and camera, then even my unexperienced eyes can see lines getting wrapped around it. :S but it's not going to fly. Like I said, I am going to make sure of it.

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First of all, all of the examples I saw given were jumpers who far exceeded the 200 jump minimum for a camera, making that minimum irrelevant. From what I saw most were swoopers, that is a whole other animal. I invoke apples and oranges. They were people who were quite qualified to use a camera and made an error, something that can happen to anyone of us on any jump, regardless of experience.

Just to clarify, I do indeed deserve some of the heat from my comment, but I'll still stand by it.

And I do not envy what DZO's have to deal with. It is a largely thankless job with enormous responsibility and financial/legal liability that does involve babysitting lots of man children (especially big DZs). So a big old high five for DZO's who keep the planes running so we can enjoy our hobby, I don't mean to diminish that at all.

As for the USPA, what credibility they had went out the window with the S&TA swooping into another jumper incident and the USPA failing to take any action. The good ol boy system unfortunately prevailed.

From my own perspective as a jumper, I have never been one of the mad skillz people. I came into skydiving not knowing much about it, the youtube hype hadn't started yet (or if it had I was unaware of it). The first skydiving promo I ever saw was Children of the Corn, and that was after I had my A.

I spent my first 50 or so jumps terrified of death for stupid stuff like leg straps breaking. And I still get scared every time I jump. I don't swoop, I don't try and do stuff at my 100%, most of the time I'm looking for outs and assessing the situation. I did in fact ignore my camera, and I still do, unless I assess the situation and determine that it is ok to focus on one person or group, which is usually only for a fraction of the jump. My mindset 90% of the time is "how do I survive this?" The vast majority of my pics/vids are "incidental captures." Why? Because I'm not a photographer, no one is paying for my video and at most a handful of people will see what I have recorded, it just isn't important.

I still don't feel especially skilled, and certainly not special. I would say my progression has been average and my ability based on jump number is very average.

And taking responsibility for other jumpers, yeah 0, and that will never change. I don't expect anyone to look after me and I don't deal with students. If I see something blatantly and unarguably dangerous, yeah I'll say something, but then it is their responsibility to do something about it, or not.

I've lost friends to BASE and I've seen people ignore warning after warning only to femur or worse. At this point anyone who gets wrecked after being warned is comical. Perhaps a symptom of my age (30), but when people do dumb stuff they know is dumb, and get hurt or killed, it doesn't phase me. It doesn't help that I am hyper judgemental over the rampant drug use and alcoholism in the community.

My beef with 200 jump edicts on cameras and wingsuits is because they are arbitrary. Wanna tally up camera and WS injuries and fatalities based on jump number?, almost all are people who exceed those numbers, many by orders of magnitude. More jumps simply doesn't correlate to more safety or better survivability. I challenge anyone to perform even a basic statistical analysis.

Who are the most dangerous people on the DZ? They are swoopers, wanna be swoopers, and old guys who like to pull at 2k.

Long story short, my personal parade is tiny and without any frills. I keep my head down and like to jump with a handful of close friends and the occasional invite to play with folks much more experienced than me. And I don't appreciate it being rained on because of idiots who pound in because of ignorance or false bravado.

I do have one skill that I would say is abnormally keen, partly due to dumb luck I suppose, and partly due to a very specialized experience training scuba divers, for years I was the guy who got sent all the "problem" students, and I learned a tremendous amount about how people behave and learn. I also learned what works and what doesn't, I was a specialist in risk mitigation and trying to predict and anticipate problems. I also trained other instructors, LEOs, and military. I also engaged in technical decompression and mixed gas diving. With that experience, and a wealth of knowledge and experience from a much more developed industry, with a much different and much more healthy community; I will flatly state that the USPA and general SOPs in the skydiving industry are infantile with much emphasis placed in all the wrong places. To use an analogy, it would be like coming from a fortune 500 company and being thrown in with your local head shop. Which is a big part of the reason I refuse to take responsibility for other jumpers unless failure to do so would not be considered reasonably prudent, and why I refuse to pursue any skydiving instructional rating.

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billvon

>

>Before the USPA got its panties in a bunch over cameras I was jumping a gopro before
>I had an A, and I have my pov of my checkout jump. But I wasn't an idiot, and I just
>turned it on before the door opened and forgot it was there until after I landed.

No, you didn't. If a meteor had hit a mile away while you were jumping, you would have thought "I hope my Gopro got that!" If you deployed and had an entanglement you would have thought about your Gopro.



I absolutely did, and I absolutely still do. Fear has and continues to reduce the importance of my camera (now in excess of $1,500) to absolutely zero. And even to this day, the pics and video I actually try to make are only when it is convenient, the rest is all incidental. I would ditch it in a heartbeat and not think twice about that decision. The same goes for my $2,000 main, as soon as getting rid of it seems to provide better survivability, it's gone.

And as an additional response to Bill, I do agree with the no tandem flybys, 100%. I'm not "anti-safety," I'm anti-rules that don't make sense.

Some other stupid stuff the USPA does, coach ratings at 100 jumps, AFFI and TI at 500. Those should be doubled. And the coach should be a stepping stone to AFFI requiring the same prerequisites. I went through a coach course, just so I could say that I did to look good for a college club I was trying to get risk management to be friendly towards. It was a laughable joke, so much so that it was actually disturbing, one of the OMFG moments (of many) burned into my head was having to explain to someone (another course participant) with hundreds of jumps what a downplane was, they didn't even remotely understand the concept.

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