Baksteen 84 #1 January 11, 2008 I have finally advanced far enough that I think it worthwhile to look at gear. I've looked at the different manufacturers websites, based on what second-hand mains I can get my hands on as well as what I think I'll like in a canopy. Thus I narrowed my choices to Spectre 190 Safire2 190 Silhouette 190 Pilot 190 Electra 190 Have you ever jumped one or more of these canopies at that size? What did you like and dislike about each of them? NB. I'm not looking for a 7 vs 9 cell argument, or canopy X is better than Y. I simply want your personal opinions on each of these canopies. "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #2 January 11, 2008 I still jump a Safire2 (139) and jumped Spectres (150, 135, 120) and Silhouettes (190, 170) My preferred is the Safire (but don't know about your size or loading). Loaded at around 1.1-1.2 (like I suppose you will be), my choice would go to the Silhouette (my favorite PD canopy besides the reserve). I prefer Silhouettes to Spectre, Sabre 1/2, Stiletto.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bmore_chrissy 0 #3 January 11, 2008 Haven't jumped any, but I'm currently going through PD's demo program to try out a Sabre2 170, and I completely recommend it. For $50 you get a canopy for 2 weekends, including shipping both ways, and their customer service is excellent. Just a idea very subjective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #4 January 11, 2008 It's very personal, I'd make sure to rent/borrow all those before making a decision Of your list I've jumped a spectre 190 - loved it, made me buy a spectre 150 for a first canopy, spectre 150 (duh), spectre 135, safire 135, safire 119, safire2 119, pilot 124, sabre2 135. Of all these I'd buy a small (104,117) pilot now. I like my safire 119 too, not that different from a safire2 119 except it's 8% smaller. But all of these are great all-round canopies. The sabre2 is a good choice if you may want to get into swooping later. Some sabre2's have opening issues - jump yours before you buy! The spectre is great for casual CRW and is the best of the lot for wingsuiting but all will do. The electra has the worst resale value, probably followed by the silhouette but PD canopies generally hold their value the best. The rest is personal! ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #5 January 11, 2008 I'm probably the Silhouette's biggest fan. I have about 20 jumps on a 190, almost 300 on a 170, and I currently have about 25 on my 150. I think its the must underestimated canopy for newbies. You'll get a good flare, its responsive (but not too responsive, nothing radical), the glide ratio is excellent, openings are great and to top it all off, its easy to pack (due to the hybrid of fabrics). I have probably about 10 jumps on a Spectre 170 and I did not like it very much, mostly due to the glide ratio (more ground hungry than any other canopy I've jumped). I also have jumps on a Sabre2 and a ZP EXE. The ZP EXE is very docile (which is what we have in our student transition rigs so we didn't want anything too aggressive). I don't have enough jumps on the Sabre2 to give you an accurate assessment. Before I get my next canopy, I'll definitely be demo'ing a Pilot and a Safire. I've heard great things about both canopies and you really have to dig to find negative feedback. I'll also probably aim to get a few more jumps on the Sabre2 to see what all the hype is about. I'd love to go to the last step on the Silhouette but I discussed it with up-jumpers and it would probably be a good thing to start to look at full zp canopies next time I downsize. But I honestly think that you would not regret getting a Silhouette. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #6 January 11, 2008 Thanks for the responses: * Not that it matters very much, but 190 would put my WL at around 1.1. * Swooping? Hell no! It's great to watch, but at the same time it scares me to death. It's not something I plan on getting involved in - within the next few hundred jumps, anyway. Quote The ZP EXE is very docile that's not it then. I'm looking for a canopy which is basically "fun to fly". As to the silhouette, yes I have heard all that. Butit seems to score "average" on all scales: average responsiveness, glide, etc. I'd have to try it to see whether it's not too ..sedate."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertimeunc 0 #7 January 11, 2008 I flew a Spectre for about 100 jumps after I got off student status, then I started to demo different mains when I was looking to downsize. The Safire 2 was a great canopy, but it flared a little too deep for my taste. I'd suggest trying a Fusion 190. There is life after PD...Seriously, though, any one of those canopies would be great. I learned a hell of a lot on my Spectre, and I can't say enough good things about it. Demo as much as you can, then get the canopy you want. The best things in life are dangerous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #8 January 11, 2008 QuoteI'm looking for a canopy which is basically "fun to fly". I don't know anything about the Electra, but all the other canopies you listed should fit that bill... I've owned and jumped a Silhouette, and honestly think it's one of the best overall canopies made. It's designed to be flown at lower wing loadings than it's all ZP brethren though, so a 190 Silhouette will likely fly 'smaller' than the others of the same size. I currently own and jump a Spectre, and it's another great all around canopy. There's probably not another canopy on the market that opens better. Well, at least if you like long, slow, soft openings! I demoed both the Sabre 2 and Pilot, and will eventually demo the Safire 2... because I'm looking for a canopy that opens like the Pilot, but lands like the Sabre 2. The Pilot openings reminded me a lot of my Spectre, but it just didn't seem to have the same flare power as the Sabre 2, which was easily the best landing canopy I've ever jumped. At a hundred jumps, I don't think it's critical that you make the 'perfect' decision. I can't image that you'd be disappointed with any of those canopies listed, certainly not enough to not happily make a few hundred jumps on any of them, which is all that you'll likely make before downsizing again... "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
L.O. 0 #9 January 11, 2008 I am going to chime in with the same opinion as everyone else, demo, demo, demo. Jumping the canopy is the only way to find your soul mate. We are all as different and unique as the canopies we jump. Sounds like you have it nailed down to one degree or another, now it's just time for some action. Go out beg barrow and steal anything you can get your hands on. after that make your choice, Good Luck.HPDBs, I hate those guys. AFB, charter member. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #10 January 11, 2008 I have 600 Spectre 190 jumps, and about 200 Pilot 168 Jumps. The Spectre is in a different category of performance than a Pilot/Sabre2/Silhouette. The Spectre being a somewhat lower performance canopy -- do not interpret that to be a criticism! Both my Pilot and my Spectre are great canopies. Jump, try, think, and buy... -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nicolai 0 #11 January 11, 2008 Well, i've jumped my Sabre2 190 for 15 jumps. I absolutely love it. It is such a blast to fly ad the landings are amazing. Soooo much flare power from the very start of the flare gives very "swoopy" landings. Well at least I get the feeling of flying across the ground before i touch down. I have not jumped any other canopy(of the ones you mentioned) but student canopies, like Raven4 280, Navigator 260, navigator 240. The openings are great and on heading'ish.. 45 degrees ocasionally, but no linetwist, high sliders or closed end cells and no slammers. And i pack like there is no tommorow(kind of trashy, but it could be worse). All in all I'd say if you can live with the openings not being 100% spot on every time you have the perfect fun machine in a sabre2. All of this, of cuorse is my own opinion and experiences with the sabre2. I hope you find a canopy that is just right for youBlue skies and dont forget to tell us your choice. and remember to buy the precious beer VERY VERY important!!!Nicolai Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KNewman 0 #12 January 11, 2008 Any reason not to consider the Fusion? They are a blast to fly, open very nice and have great flare power. I have owned two and it is a great canopy. Kevin Blue Skies and Stand-up Landings!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gearless_chris 1 #13 January 11, 2008 I only put 2 jumps on a spectre 190, but I liked it. My W/L was 1.2 at the time, it opened nice, the turns were quick. At the time is was jumping a 215 Monarch so the spectre felt like a rocket. I have a handfull of jumps on a pilot 188, W/L around 1.4. It's my favorite canopy to borrow before I got a second rig for back to backs. The pilot opens ok (not as soft as a spectre), the turns are quick, flares great. I haven't jumped a fusion yet, but I know someone that has and it sounds as nice as the pilot. Someone (might have been Beezy or George) said the fusion is the same planform as the nitron but without the hot dogs, and detuned line trim. The nitron is an awesome second canopy so the fusion might be a good first."If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane. My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,426 #14 January 11, 2008 I have jumped all those except the Electra. (BTW I think the Pilot is actually a 188.) All are nice canopies. The Spectre snivels a bit too long for my taste. I've liked the Silhouette line quite a bit, due to ease of packing and general performance (seems to fly "smaller" than its actual size.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
druvaughn 0 #15 January 11, 2008 I have 2 active rigs, one with a Spectre 230 and the other with a Safire2 209. Both are great canopies and fly awesome. Both have a real good flare. The 209 is more responsive to harness movements and the turns are a little quicker. The 230 does a little better with braked flight and I can put it into tight areas more consistently. The openings on both are great, the packers tell me they like the 209 a little better. I also had the chance to demo the Pilot 210 and the Sabre2 210. Thought the Sabre2 flew exactly like the Safire, I just couldn't get consistent openings. I liked the flare the Pilot had (best on any canopy I've used), but thought the handling was sluggish. Best of luck. Sincerely, Dru- - "Baseball is 90% mental. The other half is physical." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #16 January 12, 2008 I would say that spectre is the way to godon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #17 January 12, 2008 Not really. But the KnVVL regulates the canopies available for a skill level very strictly. They put up a table on their website correlating jumpnumbers (sprongen) to wingload and min. canopy size. Being conservative () I looked mainly at category two; the beginner canopies. The fusion is category three, so i simply never looked at it. Well, so is the Safire2, but that was highly recommended to me by the same instructor who'd been right about upsizing from the falcon 215 to the Nav 240 - I did love the canopy, even though it was a rental. FWIW, here's the link - it's in Dutch, but you'll get the gist. http://parachute.nl/fileadmin/knvvlpa_upload/pdf/BVR_bijlage_B_versie_10-2007.pdf "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #18 January 12, 2008 There's not many Fusions here, can't recall ever even seeing one. That means demoing it will be a problem, you'd likely have to buy 2nd hand over the internet and reselling it locally would also be problematic since it's pretty much an unknown here. So unless you love that particular canopy and/or can get a great deal on one, it might be wiser to stick with the list you made: those are all common canopies here and for good reasons. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladydyver 0 #19 January 12, 2008 Quote I am going to chime in with the same opinion as everyone else, demo, demo, demo. Jumping the canopy is the only way to find your soul mate. We are all as different and unique as the canopies we jump. Sounds like you have it nailed down to one degree or another, now it's just time for some action. Go out beg barrow and steal anything you can get your hands on. after that make your choice, Good Luck. This is great advice - that way you can figure out what it is you like about each canopy. I jumped a spectre for about 90 jumps but couldn't figure out how to land it very well.....I have about 40 or 50 jumps on a Pilot now and love it. I tried a silhouette but it was when I was brand new - less than 50 jumps - and didn't really understand alot of concepts about canopies and canopy control. Have fun!DPH # 2 "I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~ I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #20 January 13, 2008 Sabre-120, loaded at 1.3, picked it up for $250. Have put about 140 jumps on it so far. Will probably go to something like a 107 sometime early summer. Have done a jump on a Stilletto-107 and several on EgoMike's Crossfire-99. Both obviously more fun than the Sabre, but probably a bit radical for me yet (especially the Crossfire). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #21 January 13, 2008 I'm currently jumping a 188 Pilot and really love it. My WL is higher than yours, close to 1.4. Recently downsized from the 210 Pilot and finding the 188 flares a lot better in no wind conditions. However, I'm not suggesting you should be in any hurry to downsize, if you're comfy with 1.0 then stick with it. What I love about Pilots is their very soft openings, without excessive snivel, that they're fun and responsive to fly, and they give a really nice landing. I have also jumped Spectres, from a 230 down to a 190, which I owned a while back. Very soft openings, but has that famous Spectre snivel (just bring along a crossword puzzle to keep you occupied while the thing opens). the landings are great, even in no wind conditions. Of the two, I like the Pilot better because of the flatter 9 cell glide. I've never jumped a Safire2, but I've heard only wonderful raves about them. and I've demoed a few Sabre2's and wasn't really impressed, though to be fair about it, my skills at the time weren't that hot either. If this is your first canopy, resist the urge to buy a new one. Find a good used canopy and wear it out first. Put off spending the big bucks until your 2nd or 3rd canopy, when you'll really know what you want. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #22 January 17, 2008 I had a Silhouette for a first canopy and jumped all of those, though some in different sizes. I (heart) Silhouettes. Two things. * Demo, demo, demo. There is no substitute. * It's always the pilot. (You, not the canopy.) Buy any of those, and with practice and some theory and coaching (yes, I volunteer, but with all the options open to you you don't need me) you'll be amazed what you can do. BTW, you do know a Silhouette is a Navigator, don't you? Same canopy, small differences in reinforcements, maybe different lines (material, not trim). Same airfoil and planform. Some things just work. Did I mention I (heart) Silhouettes? (PD should pay me.)Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildfan75 1 #23 January 17, 2008 Quote Did I mention I (heart) Silhouettes? (PD should pay me.) You're going to have to get in line. I'm still jumping a 150 and I've already mentioned to Nick Grillet to get them working on a 120! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #24 January 18, 2008 No I didn't know that. And thank you for the offer, Johan - I know where to find you as soon as i have decided on something. All i need now is some jumpable weather "That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #25 January 18, 2008 What everyone else has said - there's no "right" choice, you should demo everything because there's so much subjectivity and personal taste involved. I love Pilots and have done almost all my jumps on them, but I'll still demo the usual suspects again next time I'm shopping. I've never jumped a Firebolt, a Fusion or a Lotus and would love a chance to give them a go (along with Pilot and Safire2, and Sabre2 even though I didn't like it so much last time or the time before) too. [edit: And Electra, those are pretty. And. And and and... this is going to get expensive in hop 'n' pops ] I love my Pilot for its lovely flat glide and its crisp toggle turns, and (right now) for its short recovery arc. But I really love it for the landings - the flare stroke is comparatively long, and you can milk it for quite a while - I find myself looking forward to no-wind days a lot :) Other people's tastes are different. My friend went the other way - he found the Pilot flare lacking in "oomph" that he got from the Sabre2. Swings and roundabouts, as they say... I had a 188 for my first 150-odd jumps, it taught me a lot, and now have a 168 that I intend to keep for a couple of hundred more at least. -- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
