AAD's

[sdub2221 0]

I do not jump with an AAD. I can't say that I have been critisized for not and looking at my exp. level, but I kind of feel like other experienced jumpers feel like I should, IMO. Im just wondering, what are the chances of me becoming in-capable of pulling, I do jump with other people and have recently started venturing in to free-flying. I also wear a helmet. I guess if the rig I bought would have come with an AAD, I wouldn't put so much thought into it. But it does raise a little concern seeing how so many experienced jumpers have one, and I do not. I guess my questionis, can you fully prevent the event of needing an aad fire? And, does that added sense of security affect a jumper's ability to make a split-second decision. I am not trying to cause heat, I am just curious... I have heard stories where aads have saved lives, but also heard stories where they have failed and caused someone their life, whether those stories are true, I am not sure. Once again, I am curious of other people's opinion on this subject..

[airtwardo 6]

...can you fully prevent the event of needing an aad fire?

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Sure, stay on the ground.

For your expierence level it's cheap insurance, then again on the other hand...if ya need it and don't have it, your family gets to party on the 1000 bucks ya saved!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sdub2221 0]

I sometimes just think about the reasons I should have one and the only reason I dont is cuz of money. But your right, If I kill myself and an aad would have solved the "problem", at least my family can party a lil' more. Maybe I should think of my beneficiaries a bit more

[indyz 1]

Skydivers need to stop thinking of AADs as just a device that will save them if they are knocked out. Check out Airtec's list of documented Cypres saves. The majority of AAD fires happen to skydivers who are fully capable of pulling their handles, they are just "out to lunch" for whatever reason. I can tell you that after my relatively short time in this sport, I need both hands to count the number of AADs fires I've seen, and not a single one of those jumpers was unconcsious or otherwise injured.

FWIW, I went over 1000 jumps without an AAD. I finally bought one this summer. In retrospect, it was silly to wait that long. $1300 is a drop in the bucket in this sport.

[shermanator 3]

I don't have one, but if I actually started doing freeflying, i would probably get one. When belly to earth, it is a lot easier to see the ground... granted, it is still easy to get 'into the zone' and be so focused on rw that the ground is forgotten... anyways... In freeflying, some of the flying orientations are not facing the ground, and make it a lot easier to lose track of where you are in the sky. AAD's have saved numerous lives where this haas happened. People get distracted with what th ey are doing, forget where they are, and POP. AAD just saved them. It's your call.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[councilman24 36]

Example one

I good friend was knocked unconcious exiting. She fell to her death inspite of one jumper recognizing her problem and trying to get to her. Year - 1985 before AAD's were widely accepted by experienced jumpers.

Example two

Two good skydivers with a few hundred jumps experience were learning head down. One was pretty good and more experienced. The other was less so. On breakoff and transition to belly flight for deployment the two collided with a high closing speed. The current style carbon fiber helmets probably only increased the injuries. One cracked like an egg and the sharp edges sliced the scalp. Both jumpers were knocked unconcious. Both landed unconcious under reserves activated by AAD's. One died of his freefall injuries. The other walked out of the hospital later that day.

Examples three through who knows

At least four other close friends lost altitude awareness and had AAD fires. Two deployed mains but too low to slow enough to prevent AAD fire. These were not unusual snivels but loss of altitude awareness and low pulls. Two others were no pulls until AAD fire. One was trying sit flying with inappropriate clothing and gear. You might call this preventable but at the time risks of freeflying were still being recognized. Other was loss of altitude awareness. These are only the close friends, not the other students, boogie participants and others I've seen fire or know of them firing.

We used to kill people because they were having fun all the way to the ground. We now kill them because they're having fun with their fully open and functioning canopy and mis-judge their flight into terrain.

I used to describe skydiving, pre AAD days, as one of few activities where you WILL die once you have started unless YOU take a positive action. When you leave the plane without an AAD you WILL die unless YOU do SOMETHING. That's rare in life. But, it is the risk we all assumed for many, many years. Modern AAD's now allow for a backup device that MAY change that outcome. In example two it saved one jumper and let the other one have a chance to live.

Because of the vastly varying freefall rates between freeflying jumpers and belly fliers or "corking" freeflyers learning freeflying may be one area where AAD's are even more highly indicated.

Some older jumpers don't want the risk of an AAD misfire. I believe that risk is minimal and worth the advantage but that's fine. I chose to jump before one was available. I believe part of the attraction of skydiving was the reliance on oneself. I now choose for the most part to jump with one.

I don't buy the excuse of money. Used AAD's are hard to find sometimes but available. If you cann't front the cost of new you can buy a used AAD for substantially less. The cost ownership may not change much per year but the initial hurdle is lower.

IF you make an informed decision either way that's fine. But don't make a decision based on the inertia of your current rig not having one when you bought it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I skydived for about 12 years without an AAD. After I bought one I jumped without one while mine was at the factory without a second thought. That said I don't understand why you wouldn't have one. An AAD is a reliable back-up system that is available, so you should get one if you are going to take part in this dangerous activity.
About nine years ago I was at the PIA symposium when they were honouring the inventor of the Cypres, the first electronic AAD, the one that the community decided was reliable and accurate enough for general use. During the introduction of the guest speaker the introducer asked the crowd of close to 1000 of the most senior senior movers and shakers in all aspects of the industry, who had a Cypres in their rig. A large majority of the room raised their hand. He then asked who had had their life saved by a cypres; no raised their hand. Then he asked who knew someone who had been saved by a Cypres; as far as I could tell every single person in the room raised their hand.
You are not good enough to be invulnerable enough to not need an AAD, and neither am I. Why you would choose not to own one I cannot understand.

[LouDiamond 1]

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I guess my questionis, can you fully prevent the event of needing an aad fire? And, does that added sense of security affect a jumper's ability to make a split-second decision.

Read THIS THREAD as it is very recent and ask him for yourself if he is grateful for having an AAD.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I am just curious... I have heard stories where aads have saved lives, but also heard stories where they have failed and caused someone their life, whether those stories are true, I am not sure.

There are many, many stories of AAD's either outright saving someone, or firing in an instance where someone was in trouble but would have saved themselves (AAD fires mid-snivel after a low pull on the main).

There are a comparitively very small number of cases where an AAD has failed to fire and the result has been a fataility. With modern AAD's (cypres, vigil, argus), almost all, if not all of these cases have upon investigation found to not be a failure of the AAD at all, but rather a situation where the conditions required for the AAD to fire were not met (too slow, wrong altitude, low cutaway, ect). It is important to note that these deaths were NOT caused by the AAD. The AAD didn't save them, but the root cause was a mistake (or several) by the deceased.

There has been to my knowledge only one incident of a modern AAD causing a fataility... a swooper who was decending fast enough to fire the unit, who got a surprise reserve too low to recover. A very sad day to be sure, however in this case again the AAD was not truly at "fault" as the unit was operated outside of its design parameters. There may be cases of 2-canopy-out firings resulting in main-reserve entanglements then resulting in a fatality, however I have never heard of a confirmed case.

In the end it's your call, but the statistics would show the benefits to vastly outweigh the risks. Claims of not having enough money are hard for me to accept, as a used AAD can be had for the price of 2 AFF jumps or about 20 jump tickets for lisenced jumpers. I have also noted several people who are "too poor" to purchase an AAD, yet managed to afford a brand-new $2000 custom container.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[faulknerwn 37]

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Claims of not having enough money are hard for me to accept, as a used AAD can be had for the price of 2 AFF jumps or about 20 jump tickets for lisenced jumpers.

Ones that cheap are VERY hard to find. Right now there are only a half dozen in the Classifieds. Most are over $1k in price..

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Ones that cheap are VERY hard to find. Right now there are only a half dozen in the Classifieds. Most are over $1k in price..

this isn't intended to be a smart-ass comment, but if you can click on the AAD's classifieds and find multiple AAD's under 500 bucks on the first page, then it's not really THAT hard to find. A little patience may be required, and you might get beaten to the best deals if you're not quick, but it's definately realistic to get that price if you're willing to jump without one for a couple months or search for one over the winter when you're not jumping anyway.

That said, I think the best value for AAD's can be found in complete-system offers as opposed to purchasing one separately, if that is an option.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[billvon 2,435]

>Im just wondering, what are the chances of me becoming in-capable of
>pulling, I do jump with other people and have recently started venturing in
>to free-flying. I also wear a helmet.

If you ever need an AAD, the odds are overwhelming that you will need it because you forgot to pull, not because you were incapacitated. I am aware of perhaps 30 cypres saves of one type or another; only 2 were related to incapacitation.

> And, does that added sense of security affect a jumper's ability to make
> a split-second decision.

There are people who have been affected that way; it's something you have to guard against. One good way of testing that is to ask yourself "would I make this jump if I didn't have an AAD?" If the answer is no, then don't make the jump with one.

[darkwing 4]

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I... Im just wondering, what are the chances of me becoming in-capable of pulling,...

Greater than zero. I think the more jumps you have, the more you realize that stuff can happen you have no control over. I've seen them used, and seen them save lives. I don't plan on ever needing one, but I don't plan on needing my helmet when I jump, or a seat belt when I drive either. I do the best I can to jump and drive without advancing my risk by considering the backup safety devices.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Total cost should be $10-$12 a month including purchase price and maintenance for a new or used Cypres/Cypres2 (provided you don't make more than 500 jumps in 2 years on the original Cypres). That's pretty inexpensive insurance.

[sdub2221 0]

All interesting posts and definetly good reasons why I should have one. I'm not saying loosing altitude awareness cant' happen to me, but at this point it is hard to imagine, as all of my skydives I think about my alti. the entire jump. I never claimed that having an aad would be a bad idea, I was just wanting some testimonials, and that is what I got. Thank you guys for opening my eyes a bit, and I think I'm sold. Now the question is, should I jump again before I get one?

[adobelover 0]

My ass is not replaceable...an AAD is cheap insurance.

_________________________________________


Old age ain't no place for sissies!

[TonyJ 0]

well when you start thinking about getting the point complete or waiting on somebody thats just out of the formation....it can and will happen...ive lost alti. awareness and i have seen the expression on others faces as i start to turn to track...several years ago my cypres was out for 4 year..i jumped without it. on the 1st jump without it, i was kicked hard in the head by a guy i have 400 jumps with....gets you thinking....tony

[billeisele 122]

if seatbelts were a $1,200 option in a car would you buy them?

I have not been saved - yet - but have come close 2X

seatbelts and AADs seem like a waste of money - unless you need them - then they are priceless

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Incapacity and loss of altitude awareness are not the only reasons a jumper can find him/herself very happy to have an AAD. I have a friend who had a malfunction on her main (I don't know what type). When she attempted to pull her reserve she had a "hard pull". Even with both hands on the reserve handle, she could not deploy her reserve. Only when the AAD cut the closing loop did her reserve deploy and save her life.

In my case it is very simple. I am a married man. My wife is under the notion that using an AAD will keep me from dying while skydiving (an incorrect notion that I have no intention to fix). As long as I use an AAD, she is happy to have me skydive. Getting no grief from my wife is a tremendous payoff for pushing that button four times in the morning.

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[sdub2221 0]

I have thought about that myself actually... I have needed a seatbelt before, who knows what could have happened if I didn't have one, and I know what will happen if I need an AAD and dont have one, I see a cpuple for sale in classifieds, they got multiple years left for about 500bucks, not a bad find. Can a rigger at my DZ install the AAD? Or do I send it off to have it installed?

[billeisele 122]

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I see a cpuple for sale in classifieds, they got multiple years left for about 500bucks, not a bad find. Can a rigger at my DZ install the AAD? Or do I send it off to have it installed?

have the rigger help with the purchase to make sure you are not getting screwed and that it is the correct device for you, and yes it is easy to install if your rig is set-up for it

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[hokiejmpr 0]

This will help keep you from getting screwed. When I bought mine used it seemed like about everybody was asking a fair price (I would assume because there is no question what it is worth).

if only it were this simple for a canopy...

http://www.cypresusa.com/usedcypres.asp